• echo64@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    1, it’s aspartame

    2, Mice aren’t humans, and routinely, things that happen in mice do not happen in humans. It is not at all indicative of anything and can really only be used as a hint better than nothing for looking into similar effects in humans.

    You don’t need to change your diet, and you certainly don’t need to replace it with sugar.

    • Holymoly@lemmynsfw.com
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      1 year ago

      Removing all forms of added sugar would probably make everyone feel better. Even minimizing natural sugar intake.

      Sugar is terrible, there’s no doubt about it. Artificial or otherwise.

      • echo64@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        There’s no research that indicates the currently used artificial sweeteners are bad for you.

          • feedum_sneedson@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            Artificial sugars and sweeteners are, by and large, very different things. Aspartame isn’t a sugar of any sort.

            • wolfshadowheart@slrpnk.net
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              1 year ago

              The implication here is that aspartame is often used in products that have these sugars present. Chances that aspartame is in a product without sugars is exorbitantly lower.

          • echo64@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            I want to be super clear if anyone finds this and thinks maybe…

            No, there is no evidence of artificial sweeteners causing harm. There is no conspiracy, and after many many studies over decades, nothing has been found. If there had been, then the artificial sweeteners would have been banned like the ones you’ve never heard of because we all banned them for causing problems.

            If you drink regular soda today, you should absolutely look at replacing that with a diet varient without sugar. From everything we have learned over decades, it’s absolutely safe.

            • Ook the Librarian@lemmy.world
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              1 year ago

              A few people are replying with links (of various relevance) but you are just saying “no” and claiming you’re being “super clear”. Some of the replies are directly contraindications of the claim:

              If you drink regular soda today, you should absolutely look at replacing that with a diet varient without sugar.

              Your counterpoint is saying they are “absolutely safe”. I don’t know whether you are right or wrong. It’s not anywhere near my field, but I can say I don’t find your rhetoric convincing.

              Edit: I fucked up and pasted the wrong quote. I changed the quote to the one I meant.

              • echo64@lemmy.world
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                1 year ago

                You do not need to find my rhetoric “convincing.” One person posted one link, the link was to a meta study that concludes that artificial sweeteners have no evidence that they cause harm.

                I am being clear, I am not using confusing language, and I’m stating one thing, over and over. I’m doing this because other people are muddying the water with poor claims, and I do not want anyone reading this thread to come away with the idea that maybe the artificial sweeteners are bad. There is no evidence. Again, I’m being super clear. There is absolutely no evidence, and they are absolutely safe. There is no evidence that suggests they are not absolutely safe.

                This place is full of nerds like you and me, and they like to be pandantic. I’m being clear, and using phrases like “absolutely safe” is the correct terminology when we know of no evidence to suggest otherwise.

                Again, artificial sweeteners are as far as we know, and we have studied them a lot, absolutely safe and you should consider replacing your sugar intake with them or reducing your sugar intake entirely if you can. Sugar is a large cause of health problems.

                • Ook the Librarian@lemmy.world
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                  1 year ago

                  are as far as we know

                  Who is we? Do you have a mouse in your pocket?

                  My point is that you are just some voice on the internet. When I say I don’t find your rhetoric convincing, I mean that the only evidence you offer is rhetoric. And that is not convincing regardless of how clear you are speaking.

                • smooth_tea@lemmy.world
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                  1 year ago

                  the link was to a meta study that concludes that artificial sweeteners have no evidence that they cause harm.

                  This is how the meta study concludes:

                  Results from prospective cohort studies suggest the possibility of long-term harm in the form of increased risk of obesity, type 2 diabetes, cardiovascular diseases and mortality. Further research is needed to determine whether the observed associations are genuine or a result of reverse causation and/or residual confounding. Further research is also needed in children and pregnant women, the latter for which prospective cohort studies currently suggest possible unfavourable effects of NSS consumption on birthweight and adiposity in offspring later in life.

                  The scientists who produced the study seem a lot less convinced than you.

            • Fermion@mander.xyz
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              1 year ago

              You’re using overly broad language. Multiple family members and myself get brutal headaches from aspartame. While that’s certainly not life threatening damage, it is fair to call that a harmful effect. I am not better off with many products switching to aspartame as a sweetener.

              Yes, it is just an anecdote, but it’s enough to show that absolute statements don’t usually hold universally. Please stay open to the possibility of nuance.

                • CaptainSpaceman@lemmy.world
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                  1 year ago

                  Seemed fair to me, youre using strong words like “absolutely safe”, even though there are known reactions to various sweeteners and they arent “absolutely” safe, as per the link I cited above.

        • visor841@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          Eh, IIRC there’s research that if you eat incredible amounts it’ll likely be bad for you. But it’s a lot and the equivalent amount of sugar would be way way worse.

          • Ook the Librarian@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            I can’t tell what this is supposed to convey. They asked for a study. You give a bare url to an abstract with the quote

            there is no clear consensus on whether non-sugar sweeteners are effective for long-term weight loss or maintenance, or if they are linked to other long-term health effects at intakes within the ADI.

            Are you agreeing with the post you are replying to?

            • smooth_tea@lemmy.world
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              1 year ago

              They asked for a study. You give a bare url to an abstract with the quote

              Perhaps you could download the entire meta study that is linked next to the abstract and go through it? And why does it matter whether I’m agreeing with the post?

              From all the years of reading about artificial sugar studies, it’s clear to me that there could be a risk but it is complex and varies from person to person, I find it misplaced to shout that there is absolutely no risk involved. To quote the study:

              Result of this review largely agree with those of other recent systematic reviews, in that replacing sugars with NSS in the short term results in reductions in body weight, with little impact on other cardiometabolic risk factors, but is associated with increased risk of type 2 diabetes, cardiovascular diseases and mortality in the longer term.

        • visor841@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          Eh, IIRC there’s research that if you eat incredible amounts it’ll likely be bad for you. But it’s a lot and the equivalent amount of sugar would be way way worse.

        • Brokkr@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          Your lemon curd is full of thickener (egg yolk) and sugar (honey) too.

          What thickener did they use? Soy lecithin? That’s the same thickener as found in your egg yolks.

          What sugar? Just regular sugar? That has a similar glycemic index as honey.

          Concentrated lemon juice is just lemon juice without the water. Was there also water in the recipe?

          Sounds like your stomach trouble was due to something else. I’m not saying the lemon curd you bought was good quality, but it probably wasn’t much different than what you make. And those scary ingredients are the same as the ones that you already use.

      • sock@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        there’s little research to show sugar dangers to be more than correlation

        fat people eat a lot of sugar. fat people also eat a lot. eating a lot is how you get fat, drinking calories just happens to be a fast track to getting fat. diet soda happens to be physiologically like drinking water. fat people drink diet instead of sugar coke thats already 200-1000 calories of their day GONE with very very minimal change.

        then those fat people supplement the lost sugars with more food and they gain weight. then you get studies showing GUYS DIET SODA CAUSES WEIGHT GAIN (in fat people)

        but no its not the sugar its not the macros its YOU eating too much and you can eat less to lose weight that’s just simple science. body types, “nuance”, “bad metabolism”. none of that shits real it all stems from shitty dietary choices and lack of muscle.

        all of this to say unless theres medical issues or medical intervention your weight and body type is 100% in your control should you choose to take control

          • sock@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            self control is a thing everything is addictive in some facet refined sugars just happens to trigger a stronger dopamine response than other things.

            but in the end of the day self control is necessary nobody can control you except you. so dont blame sugars addicitiveness for being overweight if you are. its solely an overeating issue.

            • cocobean@sh.itjust.works
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              1 year ago

              I feel like you underestimate addiction. “Self control” is what’s needed to not start smoking; but it takes something stronger to quit smoking, I think – a more refined willpower than simple “self control”.

              And sure, it’s something a person could cultivate and train on their own with time and focus. But so are most other things. “Why aren’t you good at drawing? All you need to do is practice every day! it’s simple.”

              • sock@lemmy.world
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                1 year ago

                nicotine is chemically addictive sugar is not.

                im a stoner and can assure you the way to quit smoking something that isnt chemically addictive is cold turkey will-power babey. ive taken long breaks when needed with months of straight use 24/7 down to zero for months. its all mind over matter.

                im also shredded now because slight caloric deficit and healthy eating is also straight will power mind over matter to consistently eat a slight deficit and well for months. and i do a rigourous calisthenics strength routine consistently to supplement thus I’m quite ripped.

                shit even for my cut i completely quit eating added sugars cold turkey i didnt eat any aside from the occasional if i was given something for like 4 months. it was also pretty easy and made occasional sweets taste better and fruits/veggies were gas.

                people make shit up as excuses like “ohh im skinny fat its too late”, “i dont have time in between my laying down and netflix binge”. no body types dont exist. never have never will stop using excuses. if you want to be lazy accept the fact YOU ARE LAZY theres no other excuse than you being lazy. which is chill being lazy is fun sometimes (remember im a stoner) but don’t pretend its for some other reason its all on YOU.

                everyone thinks oh its too hard i cant do it. but no youre just lazy and weak willed and im not joking. you can do anything if you want to thats the beauty of life. things don’t come easy if you see someone doing crazy shit that’s probably a conglomeration of years of hard work and dedication. they probably started looking and thinking like you til they woke up.

                WAKE UP you dont need to be fat, your metabolism doesn’t need to suffer with age, your joints dont need to get worse. all of this happens from a lack of training and poor diet NOT age. age provides the time for your body to degrade you have to prevent that degration. I FUCKING HATE when people say your metabolism will slow down and youll get fat eventually. bitch no ill never be like you.

                also finally, i am a drug addict i know about addiction trust me. I’ve quit some shittier things it takes effort but in the end of the day still its on YOU to quit nobody can quit for you.

                • cocobean@sh.itjust.works
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                  1 year ago

                  nicotine is chemically addictive sugar is not.

                  I’m not sure what you mean by this. If you mean a sugar addiction is more like a gambling addiction than a nicotine addiction, I don’t think that’s the case; you can find studies that claim sugar addiction is “opiate-like”. There are also some sensational claims like “sugar is more addictive than cocaine”, though that seems like more of a stretch to me.

                  I’m glad to hear you are in great shape, and it’s clear you tie a lot of self worth to physical fitness. But I would caution you not to use that as an excuse to look down on others.

      • cabron_offsets@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        Absolutely nothing wrong with a diet high in fruit and veg, both of which contain significant amounts of sugar.

        • Chocrates@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          You are correct, the caveat “added sugar” or added sweetener in this case is the important bit.

          Fructose doesn’t have the same health effects of sucrose for some reason and the sugar you eat in fruit and veg come with fiber which helps keep our blood sugar from spiking.

          I was shocked to learn that dates, which are basically candy, have a pretty reasonable glycemic index.

          • Silverseren@kbin.social
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            1 year ago

            Fructose doesn’t have the same health effects of sucrose for some reason

            That’s because fructolysis has a slightly different pathway and fate as compared to glycolysis, which results in far lower efficiency of conversion. Meaning glucose gets converted into more calories than fructose does.

            • Chocrates@lemmy.world
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              1 year ago

              Fascinating! It is astounding to me how we know some of this stuff and how there is so much we have left to discover

        • Ataraxia@sh.itjust.works
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          1 year ago

          Fruits make me just as sick as any other source of sugar. Fruit is just candy in a natural wrapper.

      • StackedTurtles@programming.dev
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        1 year ago

        There’s nothing inherently bad about sugar. It’s just energy. If you intake more energy than you burn it’s getting stored for future use (you get fat). The same goes for almost anything “unhealthy”. Manage your energy intake and almost nothing is unhealthy.

        • Ookami38@sh.itjust.works
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          1 year ago

          Probably people who are a bit sketch about the “even natural sugars” bit, since that removes a TON of otherwise healthy food options. Minimize added sugar, sure.

    • Orbituary@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      Not to mention that the gene pool of these lab mice is super small. Source: my brother is a PhD biochemist and lectured me often on this shit when I said, “hey, look at this study!”

      • Pyr_Pressure@lemmy.ca
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        The small gene pool is done on purpose. The mice are supposed to be as close to clones as possible so that you can have control populations and be confident that the results weren’t affected by certain genes and mutations in the test population.

        The size of the gene pool isn’t really an issue though because they can be bred however it’s required for tests. They have quite a lot of control over the genetics of those lab mice.

        Testing for a cure for diabetes? They can produce mice that are almost guaranteed to develop diabetes that you can then try to cure.

      • Bohurt@lemm.ee
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        1 year ago

        Such a small groups are fine for initial investigation, they have enough of a size to be acceptable statistically for most of the performed studies. I don’t think they’d get approval from ethical committee overseeing animal experiments without initial study like this to conduct something on very high groups.

    • AkaBobHoward@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      I am a relatively recent transplant from the red place, I can tell I ain’t in Kansas anymore, actual good information being up voted so cool.

      Aspartame is, because of all the claims against it, the single most studied food substance known, and it seems to somehow keep coming okay. There are a lot of studies with really bad methods that were a smear job attempt but science doing what it does they were labeled for what they are and disregarded. Is it possible to be allergic and a reaction to be anxiety sure, but that is not on the food.

    • Capt. Wolf@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      Guarantee the study also states that you have to consume an ungodly amount of it too…

      News reports grab on to stuff like this all the time. Like what they did with safrole.

        • Silverseren@kbin.social
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          1 year ago

          There’s a daily recommended amount for mice? Or was that 15% of the recommended amount for humans, which would be massive for mice?

          • smooth_tea@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            It’s the equivalent of the human daily dose. So adjusted for body weight. Loosely translated, it would be 15% of the daily recommended dose for mice.

            • Silverseren@kbin.social
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              1 year ago

              So 15% for a 60 kilogram human, on the lower end, would be the daily recommended amount for a 9 kilogram creature. A mouse weighs around 0.025 kilograms. So, that amount for the mice is for something 360 times larger.

              Obviously it’s more complicated than that with differing metabolisms and the like, but as a rough estimate, wow. That’s a lot.

              • smooth_tea@lemmy.world
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                1 year ago

                I’m baffled by your willingness to elaborate at length about this, but not read the article where this is explained. Misinforming everyone in the process.

                When a sample of mice were given free access to water dosed with aspartame equivalent to 15 percent of the FDA’s recommended maximum daily amount for humans, they generally displayed more anxious behavior in specially designed mood tests.

          • Silverseren@kbin.social
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            1 year ago

            Just in case you missed it, we discussed below that that’s the 15% daily recommended amount for a human. That they gave to the mice. A creature several hundred times smaller.

            So you were right in the first place.

            • smooth_tea@lemmy.world
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              1 year ago

              No, it’s the equivalent dose.

              When a sample of mice were given free access to water dosed with aspartame equivalent to 15 percent of the FDA’s recommended maximum daily amount for humans, they generally displayed more anxious behavior in specially designed mood tests.

            • papertowels@programming.dev
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              1 year ago

              Can you cite your sources? This excerpt from the published article suggests you’re wrong:

              The FDA recommended maximum DIV for aspartame for humans is 50 mg/kg (33). Based on allometric conversion utilizing pharmacokinetic and body surface area parameters (43), the mouse equivalent of the human DIV is 615 mg/kg/d. Therefore, the male mice received a daily aspartame dose equivalent to 14.0%, 7.0%, and 3.5% of the FDA recommended human DIV, and the females received a dose equivalent to 15.5%, 7.7%, and 3.9% of the human DIV.

  • Dkarma@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    Sugar shills and don’t touch my diet coke ppl in this thread doing Spidermanpointing.jpg

    Stevia crew represent.

    • Kumatomic@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      Stevia is great, but I really love monk fruit. No licorice root like aftertaste. I have more of a problem with the carcinogenic preservative they always pair with aspartame personally.

      • Pyr_Pressure@lemmy.ca
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        I don’t mind monk fruit all that much but it definitely has its own particular flavour which can require adjustment too. Bit of its own aftertaste as well.

  • Kethal@lemmy.world
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    The control was plain water. That seems like the sort of methodological flaw that would preclude a study from publication in a journal like PNAS.

    • Silverseren@kbin.social
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      It’s so bizarre that you wouldn’t have other sweeteners in other experimental groups and, especially, an experimental group that was actual sugar.

      • Kethal@lemmy.world
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        They’re providing a sweetener at all times. That alone would have some affect, so I’d think you’d want another sweetenere like sucrose, glucose, some other artificial sweetener, in addition to a water treatment. Alternatively, a dose response could be informative. They did have different doses of aspartame, but in both groups of mice (male and female), the dose response was opposite what you’d expect; the lower dose had a larger effect.

  • rowinxavier@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    Mice lie, monkeys exaggurate.

    This is a study on a small number of mice using a measure of anxiety which does not directly map to humans. Using mice for a study like this is fine for a pilot study but this has not clinical significance and can be safely ignored by the scientific press as well as the public. When we see a long term study which is double blinded in humans with reasonable doses, good controls, and hopefully some sort of mechanism of action then we can pay attention. Until then, aspartame has been linked to everything under the sun and yet nothing has been shown to be meaningful yet. It is one of the most well studied substances in the human diet and it seems to be at the very least mostly fine. Worry about lead in your water before you worry about this.

    • someguy3@lemmy.ca
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      1 year ago

      When we see a long term study which is double blinded in humans

      For several generations like the this one this would be 60 years minimum. Basically can’t be done.

      • rowinxavier@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        I see what you are saying but I disagree. The changes that we would consider important for aspartame should happen over a reasonable period of time. If it takes 100 years to have an impact then we probably don’t care because most people won’t live that long. What we care about is whether it has an impact over meaningful lengths of time in a human life, say over a decade or two.

        If I have tobacco every day for a year will I have cancer? Unlikely. But if I give a large number of people who are well randomised tobacco or tobacco substitute I will see changes in their outcomes in a short time, even as little as a year.

        So for aspartame, we already know it is not a massive signal. If it were then people who find the taste acrid would be better off than those who do not. But is there a possible issue there? Sure, it is possible, but it will very likely be a mild issue over a long time at a high dose, not at small doses over a short time, so this study design is not fit for purpose and it should be ignored.

        • someguy3@lemmy.ca
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          reasonable period of time.

          That misses the entire point of studying multi generational effects.

          we probably don’t care because most people won’t live that long.

          Again, misses the entire point of studying multi generational effects.

          meaningful lengths of time in a human life, say over a decade or two.

          Again.

          even as little as a year.

          Again.

          not a massive signal.

          Again.

          will very likely be a mild issue over a long time at a high dose, not at small doses over a short time,

          That’s the whole point of the study, to do a low dose over a super long time over generations. Not a high/med dose over a short time.

          not at small doses over a short time,

          Again, misses the entire point of studying multi generational effects.

          so this study design is not fit for purpose and it should be ignored.

          And a final: Again, misses the entire point of studying multi generational effects.

          I think I’m going to say cheers since sorry to say you missed the entire point, objective, and goal of the study and you want to study something else entirely. Cheers.

      • rowinxavier@lemmy.world
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        Cool, fair enough, I do have a little trouble with spelling and that is fine. Of course it could be software, learning difficulties, or just a bad day, but feel free to discard all the words I spelled correctly. Also, if you are in the US including the full stop in your quotation is typical but in the rest of the world you would keep the punctuation outside the quotes unless it is what you are quoting, otherwise the sentence doesn’t have its own full stop.

        • squid_slime@lemmy.world
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          as someone with dyslexia, i agree, honestly if it can be understood and its in a forum then why should it matter, its not like you’ve written a medical journal or legal binding letter

      • Ookami38@sh.itjust.works
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        Cool, take the low hanging ad hom, instead of actually interacting with the statement. Also it’s “exaggerate”.

    • Sporky@lemmynsfw.com
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      It’s not astroturfing it’s people sick of these studies where they pump ungodly amounts of aspartame into mice until they get a reaction. Aspartame doesn’t do anything at the levels humans consume it, it’s one of the most studied compounds in food.

      • Blackmist@feddit.uk
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        1 year ago

        It still tastes shit though.

        Worse are the drinks that took half the sugar out, but pumped sweeteners in as well, so you still get fat and now it tastes crap too.

        • Ookami38@sh.itjust.works
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          1 year ago

          Sorry legit haven’t read the article but sounds like you have, so I’ll ask for clarity

          Would that be the equivalent of a 15% daily recommended dose, as adjusted by weight for a rat, or is it literally 15% of the daily allowance of a human, pumped into the rat? Because the latter is definitely more of what vibe I get from the previous poster.

          • CO_Chewie@sh.itjust.works
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            When a sample of mice were given free access to water dosed with aspartame equivalent to 15 percent of the FDA’s recommended maximum daily amount for humans, they generally displayed more anxious behavior in specially designed mood tests.

            • Ookami38@sh.itjust.works
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              Cool, so it’s 15% of the RDA for humans, divided by whatever the avg weight difference between a rat and a human is, right? Or similar? That’s the best interpretation of that quote, though it is still a bit ambiguous lol

                • Ookami38@sh.itjust.works
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                  Yeah, that’s what I get now. I would like if they had a more specific rundown of how that number was calculated, and how much water it was in / the rats consumed. May be in the article or study, still haven’t actually read it and don’t have the time ATM.

              • Cavemanfreak@lemm.ee
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                1 year ago

                That quote makes it sound like it’s not adjusted by weight. But it also doesn’t mention the aspartame to water ratio, or how much of the water that the rats drank.

          • papertowels@programming.dev
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            Here’s the relevant sentence in the study:

            The FDA recommended maximum DIV for aspartame for humans is 50 mg/kg (33). Based on allometric conversion utilizing pharmacokinetic and body surface area parameters (43), the mouse equivalent of the human DIV is 615 mg/kg/d. Therefore, the male mice received a daily aspartame dose equivalent to 14.0%, 7.0%, and 3.5% of the FDA recommended human DIV, and the females received a dose equivalent to 15.5%, 7.7%, and 3.9% of the human DIV.

            It’s a lot to unpack, but my interpretation is that it’s been adjusted for a rat

        • Pipoca@lemmy.world
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          To translate that into something sensible, the RDA in the US is 50 mg/kg = 110.25 mg/lb. 15% of that is 16.5 mg/lb. So 1653 mg per 100 lbs of bodyweight.

          A can of diet coke is about 200 mg of aspartame. So that’s a bit over 8 cans of coke per 100 lbs of body weight. Or 1.5 2-liter bottles per 100 lbs.

          That’s… kinda a lot.

      • Illuminostro@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        And cigarettes don’t cause cancer, and burning fossil fuels doesn’t cause global warming, and…

        • Ookami38@sh.itjust.works
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          Ultimately life causes cancer. All of these things accelerate the speed that cancer tends to develop but, well… I doubt a cigarette a day will significantly impact your life expectancy. The dose makes the poison, after all.

        • bodgeit@lemmy.sdf.org
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          cigarettes don’t cause cancer

          they don’t

          smoking a pack a day raises the possibility of cancer

          drinking 20l of diet coke a day would probably also cause anxiety

          and burning fossil fuels doesn’t cause global warming

          climate change is natural. Ice age didn’t end because of fossil fuels

    • jimbo@lemmy.world
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      Glad to see the “everything positive is astroturfing” clowns made their way over from reddit, too.

      • hansl@lemmy.world
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        The important thing is you found a way to feel superior to both without needing to voice your opinion.

    • EatATaco@lemm.ee
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      Any evidence to back up the assertion that they are shills, or is it just an empty ad hominem because you can’t address an actual point?

      To be clear, fuck that aspartame garbage.

      • Illuminostro@lemmy.world
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        Any reason you think I should care about your opinion on anything, at all?

        But to address your question, maybe it has something to do with walls of replies that read like a PR script. Use your head for more than memes.

        • EatATaco@lemm.ee
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          So, no, you have no evidence to back up the assertion, it’s just how you feel.

          Use your head for more than memes.

          If blaming me for your inability to back up your claims is your definition “using your head” I’m happy to continue going through life without doing so.

    • Psychodelic@lemmy.world
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      I mean, if the choice is between sugar and aspartame… seems like an easy choice to make - the science should speak for itself

      I’ve been dabbling with stevia but last time I put to packets in my tea and it was apparently too much and I did not feel well after

        • FeminalPanda@lemmings.world
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          That’s my take, but It took overloading on sugar to get me there. My grandma made southern sweet tea as she called it. It was like sugar water lol. We went out to eat 10 years ago and I was thirsty, had 3 large glasses of sweet tea before the food came, spent most of the time in the bathroom and could no longer stand sugary drinks. Unsweet tea, or half as much simple syrup if I can choose.

  • lennybird@lemmy.world
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    In my research to find a substitute for mom’s sugar intake, Stevia came down to being the safest and most reliable, albeit not the best flavor substitute, necessarily.

    And avoid Erythritol above all else.

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      Erythritol is tolerated by people at pretty varying rates. Some people have no issues, others have stomach problems. It doesn’t really bother me much.

      I personally like allulose the best tho, but it’s not easy to get in the EU yet.

      • lennybird@lemmy.world
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        Digestive issues aside I’m mostly concerned with the evidenced increased risk of stroke and heart-attack.

        https://newsnetwork.mayoclinic.org/discussion/mayo-clinic-q-and-a-is-erythritol-a-safe-and-healthy-sugar-substitute/

        In recent decades, some concerning research has been published about possible adverse health effects of erythritol.

        An American study from 2001 found that people who used erythritol as a sweetener had a three-year increased risk of major adverse cardiac events – defined as non-fatal heart attack or stroke. While this was an incidental finding – meaning that the erythritol did not necessarily cause or contribute to their cardiac issues – it highlighted the need for more research to determine if using a sugar substitute predisposes a person to higher heart attack or stroke rates.

        A 2021 study examined people who consumed erythritol or a similar sugar alcohol, xylitol. The results found that ingesting erythritol as a sugar substitute caused a spike in blood levels and increased the stickiness of the volunteers’ platelets. Platelets help the blood to clot if we cut ourselves, but if they are sticky, the risk of blood clots in the body increases, raising our risk of heart attack, stroke or other vascular issues.

        While the findings still do not definitely prove that erythritol directly increases the risk for cardiovascular issues, the results indicate it may be best to avoid it until we have more evidence to suggest that it is or is not safe.

  • someguy3@lemmy.ca
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    When a sample of mice were given free access to water dosed with aspartame equivalent to 15 percent of the FDA’s recommended maximum daily amount for humans, they generally displayed more anxious behavior in specially designed mood tests.

    What’s truly surprising is the effects could be seen in the animals’ offspring, for up to two generations.

    We know that when it’s consumed, aspartame splits into aspartic acid, phenylalanine, and methanol, which can all affect the central nervous system. There have already been question marks over potentially adverse reactions to the sweetener in some people.

    • Silverseren@kbin.social
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      We know that when it’s consumed, aspartame splits into aspartic acid, phenylalanine, and methanol, which can all affect the central nervous system.

      This is precisely why this all sounds like BS and such studies have frequently been called out for their poor methodologies. Aspartic acid and phenylalanine are crucial amino acids that we consume in a bunch of foods at much higher concentrations. And the methanol produced in its breakdown is extremely minimal.

      Hence why the vast amount of pseudoscience claims about aspartame have been debunked one after the other.

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        Taurine is an amino acid we generate ourselves

        Its also a blood thinner and critical component of all energy drinks. And is why energy drinks can kill you.

        Just because its an amino acid doesn’t mean its harmless.

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          Of course. But those sorts of impacts have not been shown for these amino acids in their otherwise much higher consumption concentrations. Unless you have phenylketonuria, but you’d know if you did already.

      • pelespirit@sh.itjust.worksOP
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        Hence why the vast amount of pseudoscience claims about aspartame have been debunked one after the other.

        This is literally them doing science, lol. It’s a study.

        • Silverseren@kbin.social
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          There are plenty of studies done by those wishing to push pseudoscience claims. We wouldn’t have people like Andrew Wakefield otherwise.

          And nutrition is one such field that has an outsized amount of pseudoscience pushers.

          • pelespirit@sh.itjust.worksOP
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            There are also a shit ton of studies done by food processing & manufacturing companies that are bogus. Knowing how your own body reacts to foods isn’t pseudo science. You’d agree that nutrition is part of that, yes?

            You sound like team cigarette! “It’s made from all natural materials and plants and people have been smoking for centuries”.

            • Silverseren@kbin.social
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              Oh no, I’m an actual scientist who knows molecular biology and the decades of research showcasing pseudoscience health claims to indeed be pseudoscience.

              History check: it’s the scientific community that showed cigarettes were bad for you years before the public ever listened to the facts.

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                Oh no, I’m an actual scientist who knows molecular biology and the decades of research showcasing pseudoscience health claims to indeed be pseudoscience.

                So great, then you know that a small percentage of people can react to things that you can’t explain. We’re on the same page.

                History check: it’s the scientific community that showed cigarettes were bad for you years before the public ever listened to the facts.

                Interesting, I bet the cigarette companies didn’t do their own studies to show everything is fine. And if they could have, go online and convince the scientific community is pseudoscience.

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          I admit I haven’t read the article, or the study, but they can be doing science and also doing it wrong. From reading this thread, it sounds like they used a DRASTIC dosage of aspartame for one, and for two, as the guy above was saying they’re attributing the issues with aspartame to mechanisms that don’t make sense.

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      I didn’t read the study, and I’m not going to, but was this a double blind test? Especially for the offspring claim?

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      People need to get in touch with their groceries. I’m lucky that I have really strong reactions to food because it’s obvious what affects me or not. I become a full on grouchy interrogator when I have aspertame, same with MSG but that’s more of an accumulation thing.

      • Silverseren@kbin.social
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        So you also believe in MSG health claims, despite that being a salt of glutamate, an amino acid found in all meats, mushrooms, and plenty other foods already.

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          I’m going to answer this question once and only once.

          There are some people allergic to peanuts, sometimes a whiff could kill them or sometimes it takes a ton of it. MSG is concentrated, taken from many different products, and known to cause reactions in some people. Symptoms don’t happen to everyone and maybe I’m allergic to what the original source is? It could be the histamine causing effects? I don’t know, I just know it effects me and would put me in the percentage that gets symptoms. Peanuts are natural too, do you question people’s allergies to that?

          • Silverseren@kbin.social
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            And yet all the studies done on MSG have found no such effect. In fact, when conducting comparative tests where people were given a placebo but made to think it had MSG, they claimed they were having negative health effects.

            This has been studied for decades and no evidence of a negative physiological impact has been shown. Especially since MSG was used in Asian cuisines in America for years prior with no such effects up until the hysteria the one writer caused.

          • Ookami38@sh.itjust.works
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            Some people are allergic to nuts. Some to shellfish. And sure, a small portion probably to MSG. That’s fine, absolutely be conscious of what you eat and how it makes you feel.

            There’s a GULF of difference between that statement and saying “msg is bad because it causes a reaction in some people” though. Are peanuts dangerous? Are shellfish dangerous? Because with the metrics you’re providing, you have to label them as just as dangerous to the general public as it sounds like you want for aspartame, msg, etc.

            • pelespirit@sh.itjust.worksOP
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              This is my last comment to you, and I’m going to say this only once as well. Not causing symptoms right away isn’t an indication that it’s safe. It could still cause long term effects in a cumulative way.

              Dr Claude Lambré, member of EFSA’s Panel on Food Additives and Nutrient Sources Added to Food, and Chair of the working group tasked with the re-evaluation, said: “Based on the available evidence, we are confident that the newly derived group ADI for glutamic acid and glutamates is protective of consumers’ health, as it is below the doses that have been associated with certain effects in humans, such as headache, raised blood pressure and increased insulin levels.”

              https://www.efsa.europa.eu/en/press/news/170712

              • Ookami38@sh.itjust.works
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                You don’t have to reply, I will anyway so that everyone else gets a more clear picture.

                I’m not advocating for putting anything into your body without thought. That’d be dumb. I’m merely pointing out there’s a MASSIVE DIFFERENCE between being aware, and being overly reactive, or advocating for really safe (in moderation) additives be banned or similar.

                The article you sent states “Currently, there is no numerical safe intake level ( ADI ) specified for glutamic acid and glutamates used as food additives in the EU.” This is not stating that a safe level does not exist, but that the government has not determined what it was (prior to that article). They then go on to state that they have set a safe level at 30mg/kg body weight. For context, using the average body weight of males, 90.62 (rounding to 90), this comes out to 2700 mg. Salt’s RDA is 2300 mg. Sugar is 4800mg (48g). So, we can conclude that msg, as it is, is between sugar and salt in terms of detrimental effect, at least as far as current science tells us.

                By all means, limit your intake. That’s your right. Don’t compare it to a food allergy, though. Or try to tell other people they’re wrong for coming to a different conclusion.

      • queermunist she/her@lemmy.ml
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        MSG is more of a racism thing. It was just a trick crackers came up with to keep their business from going to Asian restaurants.

  • Silverseren@kbin.social
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    Ah, another one of the “we found something in mice and that totally means it happens in humans” pseudoscience studies. Though we can probably blame the press for making such claims that the studies do not, unless this is one of those studies made by the known pseudoscience “scientists” like Seneff.

    • OpenStars@kbin.social
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      The title used by the reporter:

      A Popular Sweetener Was Linked to Increased Anxiety in Generations of Mice

      The title of the original publication:

      Transgenerational transmission of aspartame-induced anxiety and changes in glutamate-GABA signaling and gene expression

      I did not read the latter so I cannot vouch for it, but the former is most definitely click bait, through and through, from title to content. I mean, here we are talking about it and sharing the link so… they accomplished their purpose, and why should they care what happens afterwards?

      • roguetrick@kbin.social
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        So they’re saying that it’s epigenetically transmitted? That’s interesting. What mechanism are they suggesting?

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          I just clicked twice to find the article title, and don’t have time today to actually read through it… but it could be any number of things, including too early in the investigation to know, but we’ll have to read it to find out! :-D

          Edit: okay so I did look (free full text here), and they don’t seem to know so precisely, except it transmits to grandchildren via the father, so like it could not be microbiome, it must be something in the sperm (even if something else also happens in the eggs too).

    • pelespirit@sh.itjust.worksOP
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      My theory, and again it’s just a theory, anxiousness from things you eat is your body stressing out that you can’t process it or something. Of course, it needs more studies, but you could inherit slight allergies and the learned behavior.

      • Ashyr@sh.itjust.works
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        My understanding is your body processes aspartame just fine. It’s just much sweeter than cane sugar so you have to use less than a calorie to achieve the same effect as a hundred calories of cane sugar.

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          That might be true? I just know how it affects me, Human studies are just people like you and me giving their feedback as to whether or not something gives them symptoms or not. I definitely get that angst with aspertame. So, even if it’s a small percentage that are effected by it, I would be included in that small percentage.