- cross-posted to:
- politicalmemes@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- politicalmemes@lemmy.world
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You can’t explain stupid to stupid.
You kind of can, but for the most part, it is better to just not engage unless they are showing themselves to be an open and honest interlocutor.
TIL the word “interlocutor”
“1. a person who takes part in a dialogue or conversation.”
Thanks to you that apple is a Nazi now
/s just in case
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Apple: I was a very far left leftist with strong values a d principles but then someone was rude to me on the internet and forced me to become a Nazi.
One thing I’ve learned is you can’t engage in a rational debate with an irrational person.
I don’t think most of the people we are talking about are irrational.
They are arguing in bad faith.
It’s not that they are stupid, it’s that they’re stubborn.
And arguing against them actually poses risks because they will lie about what you said if they can use it to polish their lies.
I honestly wish I could upvote you more because this is exactly the problem.
Yeah, you can plant seeds… But you won’t win anything. And the seeds, you plant will be absorbed by others looking on mostly.
Maybe assuming you are the only one with reason in a conversation is the problem. You don’t have to agree with someone to understand their point of view or reasoning.
Its definitely easier to ban or block if all you want is a circle jerk though.
There is no debating with people that believe in mythology as real life. Who says there is a lake of fire I’ll go to because I’m queer, who vote for someone their religion says is the anti-christ. Blocking is just avoiding stepping in shit.
One could spend the enegry to spin their own beliefs to demostrate their contradictions… but their cognitive dissonance will cause them to just dig deeper to maintain their world view… people have to have an open mind before any rational debates can be made.
Yup, you can’t reason a person out of a position they didn’t reason themselves into
For most of my life, I was pretty quiet about being an atheist, and literally all of my friends were Christian; *they assumed I was too, and it was easier to let them. Eventually I stopped caring who knew, and finally told a few of my friends that I’m atheist. In every case, the response was ‘you can’t be atheist – you’re too nice’.
A couple of them flat-out refused to believe I’m atheist, telling me that I’m actually Christian, I just don’t go to church or pray, and that’s okay. Utterly refusing to accept I don’t believe in their god, and trying to convince me of all the reasons I’m acktuaaly a believer, even if I don’t think I am. It’s been confusing and maddening. Some of these conversations have gone on for more than a decade.
Many people will straight-up refuse to see anything that doesn’t conform to their worldview, and there’s not a thing you can say to break through it.
e: *
Damn - I’d be so down for that discussion, for no other reason than I’d be fascinated at their definition of Christian that’s inclusive of not believing there is one existant God, who created the world, and whose representative/earthly form died to absolve us of our sins.
Like, you can follow every other rule in the book Ned Flanders style if you want, but these are the basic requirements to be a Christian (regardless if you’re a ‘good’ or ‘bad’ one). Decent chance it ends with a hard, interesting look at the basis for their personal faith, if you have the patience and energy to pull at that for a while.
But unless you find that part interesting and just wanna be an atheist living your life, yeah, that sounds exhausting and irritating, and it sucks they’re acting this way with you.
I actually enjoy religious debate to a point (until it becomes circular).
Responses I’ve got usually settle on the fact my outlook and actions follow Jesus’s teachings, and that because I have morals – and god is the originator of morals – I clearly do follow god, even if I don’t want to admit it to myself.
Trying to tell people that ethics didn’t originate with their bible, and that obviously people had morals tens of thousands of years before Christianity even existed (because otherwise cooperative societies would not have formed) is something they can’t even fathom, it’s so far outside their worldview.
Some insist I must believe in god in order to reject him, and can’t understand when I point out they don’t have to believe in leprechauns in order to reject them.
For indoctrinated and devout Christians, there doesn’t seem to be a way to break through the fog. I’ve two friends who will begin shouting at me over this, though they’re perfectly reasonable the rest of the time. Years of this is exhausting, as you say, so now I’ve mostly stopped trying.
… or people who suddenly call you a “genocidal monster” for simply stating that Iran is ran by ultra conservative religious nuts who kill women/gays/etc. (Same people have a LGBTQIA pattern flags in their profile…)
I don’t get them… and honestly, it’s not worth my time and nerves.
I don’t want a circle jerk, I just want to not see people tell me that facts that have been scientifically proven a million times are actually wrong because their old book said so (or at least they intepreted it that way) or cheerlead a genocide.
I’m with you, but understanding someone’s view sometimes means acknowledging that it is, in fact, irrational. There are reasons some give as to why they think that cis women need protection from trans women, but those reasons are either not rational since the vast majority of evidence is to the contrary, or they are founded on the extreme minority of evidence that confirms them (meaning the search for evidence was conducted irrationally).
If I try to understand someone’s point of view, restate it to them in a way they accept, and present overwhelming evidence to the contrary, and their response is to say the evidence is irrelevant because it’s possible some of it was biased, that’s irrational.
ThE mArKeTpLaCe Of IdEaS
But but my freeze peach!!1!21!
Woe, Tolerance Paradox be upon ye.
tolerance is a contract, not a gift.
my fist is a gift to the faces of bigots
To avoid bigotry is really hard nower days. I don’t like Israels genocide but don’t think all Jews or even Israelis are monsters. I absolutely hate the Iranian politics of murdering women for getting raped and similar stuff, but I don’t think war is the solution. And suddenly someone jumps out of the woodwork blaming you “for support of genocide”… am I the bigot? I don’t know any more…
Moooooooood
Is this loss?
…of at least one apple, sure.
:.|:;No this is Bad Apple!!
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An open society that doesn’t want the intolerant to undermine and topple it must be ready to defend itself - by reason and argument if possible, but these may fail because the intolerant reject reason itself. Force should be the last resort, but if all other means prove fruitless, it should be a resort still.
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Step 1: label people you don’t like as intolerant
Step 2: skip diplomacy because of course
Step 3: use force on intolerant people
Exactly what makes you any different than this group of “intolerant people” you are talking about?
You’re the apple
A contest of ideologies is nothing new nor inherently despicable. To declare an opposing ideology an enemy is nothing new nor inherently despicable. That’s how war has always worked, and defending yourself against those seeking to overpower you is nothing wrong. In that respect, both sides are the same, and that is the nature of opposition.
But I did not skip diplomacy. I did a lot of arguing, online and offline, and still do. I tried reasoning, and still do.
What makes me different is that I don’t think people should be oppressed for things they can’t control. I don’t think being poor makes you a worse person, nor rich a better one. I don’t think people born in marginalised demographics that are denied the same opportunities to prosper, tautologically lacking the prosperity to improve their lot, should be stuck in that cycle. I don’t think civilians should be bombed by imperialist fascists for their ethnicity.
More critically, I don’t think a burger flipper working full time should make less than I do. I don’t think people should have to fear for their existence. I think we all - you included - deserve a happy, pleasant life. You shouldn’t have to worry about affording medical care, having a roof over your head or having enough food to survive. Luxuries, we can talk, but bare necessities shouldn’t be an issue.
This is what separates me from the people spreading bullshit about Haitians, inciting racial violence, privatising healthcare, propping up the oligarchy while bleeding the people for every last ounce of labour they can get away with:
I would rather have people I hate live comfortably, if it means that all the decent people can live comfortably too, rather than seeking to tear down everyone else for my own benefit.
I want you to be happy, along with the rest of us.
Tolerance is not an absolute rule, but a social contract. Members of a tolerant society agree to tolerate others so long as others do the same. When someone violates the contract by being intolerant they cannot then proceed to hide behind that same contract for protection.
At some point a judgement has to be made about what is tolerant and what is not, and that is a judgement we make collectively as upholders of the social contract.
Well, I’m not homophobic, transphobic, or racist. Seems to be the general group that’s being blocked.
If someone wants to argue economy with me, I’ll bite. If someone wants to argue about whether or not trans people deserve rights, I will block
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Step 1: label people you don’t like as intolerant
Step 2: skip diplomacy because of course
Looks like you’ve already completed steps 1 and 2…
Those steps stink, probably because you pulled them out of your ass.
See, this disingenuous argument works better when you just generalize it, because when you get into specifics it looks very different. Example:
Step 1: label the people that hold the belief that ‘trans people are subhuman trash that need to be excised from society by violence if necessary’ as intolerant
Step 2: skip diplomacy because they refuse to engage in actual conversation
Step 3: use force on them because they are actually attacking trans people.
Although really even parts 2 & 3 are disingenuous, because there are plenty of examples of people trying to engage the intolerant in debate, far beyond what would really be reasonable even. And you’ll also notice that force is rarely, if ever, used against those intolerant folks either, even as they use force, even deadly force.
Hell, even the law won’t do more than slap their wrists in many cases. I use trans people as an example because until recently, ‘I went on a date with this lady and then found out she was trans, and I was so shocked I killed her’ was an actual legitimate legal defense and several people used it. If we’re being pedantic, that defense is still perfectly acceptable at the national level, as several bills banning it have been introduced, but none have been passed.
Step 1: someone says trans people are bad and wrong
Step 1.5: live in a world providing plenty of evidence to the contrary. (No action required)
Step 2: attempt diplomacy by saying that statement is probably false and its use will be reacted to with force. (Often a previously stated rule and therefore no action required)
Step 3: use force.
The fact is, saying that anyone has “skipped diplomacy” is also disingenuous. The discussions bigots are trying to have aren’t novel, they’ve been had to the extent that they are solved. No one “decided” they are bigots and have to get kicked out, it’s a conclusion.
Step 1: someone says trans people are bad and wrong (subtext: and therefore we should do something about it)
“Oh, but I’m just expressing my opinion. What’s wrong with that? Am I not allowed to have opinions anymore? Surely you are the actually intolerant one, because I only implied that I don’t think trans people should exist by saying they are bad and wrong”
It’s frustrating because subtext does exist and matter. They only acknowledge the subtext in their bigoted assertions when it’s convenient for them.
Edit: accidentally a word
I appreciate this, I really do, but you do have to be careful not to end up like certain leftist Reddit subs where I got banned for the heinous crime of suggesting that voting for Harris might produce better outcomes than voting for Trump. Some level of discussion that goes beyond what the majority (or, lbr, the mods) think has to be allowed or you just have an echo chamber.
Granted, that isn’t what is happening in the comic. The apologist here is genuinely advocating tolerance of Nazis. This situation is appropriate.
In my experience, most self-identified centrists, at least in the US, are to the right of what anyone reasonable would actually consider center. And I don’t mean that in an “um ackshually the Dems are center right” way either, I mean they’re often just Conservatives who don’t hate gays (but do hate trans people) or something.
Or conservatives who are queer and white
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I think I got banned for replying “?” to someone saying NATO was bad because I’d literally never heard anyone say that. The context was about the invasion of Ukraine by Russia. I’m glad I’m off Reddit and modlogs are public here.
I truly hate seeing people get banned for questioning a viewpoint. How weak are your opinions if you literally won’t answer questions about them? Of course there are bad-faith rhetorical techniques that involve asking questions, but people wanting to learn should never be turned away.
Look, I am a big believer in attempting to educate other people and better the world around you by trying to change harmful or hateful outlooks, but I also realize that some people cannot be changed. Trying to engage these types of people in real life is just putting yourself in danger. Engaging them online is fine but there’s a limit to how long you should spend having dialogue with someone who could probably argue their irrational viewpoints for weeks on end without stopping.
Yep.
My entire family is conservative. They eat up every drop of shit from the shit fountain. I can disprove anything they give me in about five seconds, and no matter how absolutely cratered their opinions are and decimated their egos in an argument, a week later, they’ll start right back up again with some insane shit they heard online.
It’s like trying to patch a dam made of mud.
I try to keep an open mind and engage in conversation when I can too. Tbh the fallacy I find to be the most irritating (and probably most common) is when the person already presupposes your entire argument and crafts straw men arguments against you. To me, that tells me they’re just unwilling/unable to listen to me and listen to my actual arguments. No use in debating someone who doesn’t even know what they’re debating against.
Having to keep saying “but that’s not what I said” every time I try and explain myself gets exhausting after awhile lol
“Their irrational viewpoints” because our viewpoints are all rational. Unfortunately, that’s what everyone who’s hard-line on their views and won’t consider discussion with others seems to think.
The meme posted here comes off as super dumb to me, not only will we not listen to anyone else, we are so closed minded that we won’t even listen to people who agree with us but also see where the other side is coming from.
Lemmy is a strong echochamber for leftists sadly, it was my hope that Lemmy would have a thoughtful userbase who recognises both sides are equally problematic for their extreme views and hard headedness.
Majority of it is bullshit anyway, biggest joke on earth is the political system, the world functions because of all the people who don’t give a damn and get on with living their lives and being useful.
You are in a queer friendly community talking about “… recognize both sides are equally problematic for their extreme views …” That is incorrect. The most leftists are not pushing or perpetrating the genocide (or removal, or subjugation) of my people (the queer, disabled, and other social minorities). I know from experience the same is not true of the right. Just like the OP and like many of the comments, I do not tolerate “both-sidesism” because it is not an equal scale. The right creates a platform built regressionist practices. I think some leftists are annoying, but at least they aren’t trying to kill me.
“equally problematic for their extreme views” means you look at all the extreme views of each side and compare how problematic they are. Genocide on social minorities is an extreme view. Accepting social minorities for what they are is not an extreme view, so these two things cannot be compared in this equation.
The genocide of social minortities thing from “the right” could maybe be compared to the excusing and denying of Chinese genocide from “the left”.
In this case, both are problematic, but the right side thing has a personal impact for you, so it weighs heavier for you. Someone with a Taiwanese background may find the other side’s problem to weigh heavier.
It s not a very good measure to base your political beliefs upon, but it’s rather a measure to support the centrist view and illustrate that extremism happens on both sides.
Finally, political views are a spectrum. There is no true left or right or liberal or conservative, or rather there is, but there shouldn’t be. The left/right debate only polarizes society. I think most centrists are against that polarisation and think that the centrist view could be a way to bridge the gap and find a way to reunite society.
I see the common mistake of associating the left with authoritarianism.
China and such are not left. They’re even further right to the point of fascism labeled communism.
Remebere communism/socialism is about the workers relation to the means of production. Chinese people do not own the factories they work on, so I’m not sure you can call them left.
The rational debate is so the on the fence people see the problems with the bigots rather than just the bigoted opinions/“proof”
It’s about stopping the lies from spreading not changing an individual opinion. You could hardly call yourself a leftist if you don’t understand that
They’re not really centerists, they’re just trying to stir the pot. Jon Stewart had a really good podcast on all this on the Weekly Show. I could only find a youtube video on my laptop, I think it’s the full thing by the time.
The uncommitted/third party vote is what caused biden to drop out of the race. It could also very well cost the democrats the election.
When a minority group has outsized power due to circumstance, they should use it to affect the change they want.
The point isnt to make democrats lose its to put pressure on them to drop their worst positions, which happen to include genocide.
You can argue that you think it won’t work, but its a prediction. Noone knows, which is why even among Muslims this debate has people on both sides.
None of what you said is how anything works in US government. Biden has some crazy takes on the war in Gaza, but it’s rooted in them being our allies and something else that I have no idea about.
3rd party in a 2 party system just takes away votes from another person. You have to calculate who that’s gong to be and assess the risk to the people and government.
When a single party is in charge of the both the house and senate and there are no assholes that can be bought off, that’s the only time things can be changed.
something else that I have no idea about.
That something else is Zionism.
Do you really believe that? Biden is a church going Catholic. We don’t know what’s going on here, but I suspect it’s more money related.
A lot of US Zionists are some flavor of Christianity. It’s very common.
What do you think Zionist means?
A political movement that advocates for the establishment and support of a Jewish homeland in Palestine.
The apple fell somewhere completely devoid of apple trees and scientists could not trace it back to the tree of origin.
Violence against fascists isn’t an answer, its a question and the answer is always yes
