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Who’s gonna tell these Libtards (aka the DeathCult) that Israelis are not Jewish & Arabs, they’re European (just like the Americanos & the Austrailianos)
Yeah your grandparents being victims of the same shit doesn’t justify your actions, if anything it makes them worse since you should know better.
As a russian I feel this a lot :/
Oof. It’s not been a good few, uh, decades to be a Russian. At least, it seems that way looking from the outside.
isn’t that literally the definition of zionism? Why is this even a meme?
Zionism at its most reductive and ideal is the idea that Jewish people should have a state/homeland that will never persecute them for being Jewish.
In theory, that is what Joe Fucking Biden meant when he told a crowd of Jewish people that he was a Zionist.
The problem starts when you start asking questions like: “How do you do that?” and the actual Zionists, surprisingly, aren’t that interested in the creation of a secular state, or what’s going to happen to the non-Jewish people already living there.
So, that’s the meme. The conflict between the ideal and the reality, this weird thought space between concept and reality that really only takes a person thinking one step ahead to notice but liberals, like Joe Biden, didn’t and don’t.
If you’re being generous to liberals, and not a realist who knows they’re active and knowledgeable participants.
Zionism is a settler colonialism project that was able to really start with the support of British Imperialism. Zionism as a political movement started with Theodore Herzl in the 1880s as a ‘modern’ way to ‘solve’ the ‘Jewish Question’ of Europe. Western Nations supported this instead of instituting legal protections and refuge for Jewish people fleeing persecution.
Adi Callai, an Israeli, does a great analysis of how Antisemitism has been weaponized by Zionism during its history.
Since at least the 1860’s, Europe was increasingly antisemitic and hostile to Jewish people. Zionism was explicitly a Setter Colonialist movement and the native Palestinians were not considered People but Savages by the Europeans. While Zionist Colonization began before it, the Balfor Declaration is when Britain gave it’s backing of the movement in order to ‘solve’ the ‘Jewish Question’ while also creating a Colony in the newly conquered Middle East after WWI in order to exhibit military force in the region and extract natural resources.
That’s when Zionist immigration started to pick up, out of necessity for most as Europe became more hostile and antisemitic. That continued into and during WWII, European countries and even the US refused to expand immigration quotas for Jewish people seeking asylum. The idea that the creation of Israel is a reparation for Jewish people is an after-the-fact justification. While most Jewish immigrants had no choice and just wanted a place to live in peace, it was the Zionist Leadership that developed and implemented the forced transfer, ethnic cleansing, of the native population, Palestinians. Without any Occupation, Apartheid, and ethnic cleansing, there would not be any Palestinian resistance to it.
Herzl himself explicitly considered Zionism a Settler Colonialist project, Setter Colonialism is always violent. The difficulty in creating a democratic Jewish state in an area inhabited by people who are not Jewish, is that enough Palestinian people need to be ‘Transferred’ to have a demographic majority that is Jewish. Ben-Gurion explicitly rejected Secular Bi-national state solutions in favor of partition.
Quote
Zionism’s aims in Palestine, its deeply-held conviction that the Land of Israel belonged exclusively to the Jewish people as a whole, and the idea of Palestine’s “civilizational barrenness" or “emptiness” against the background of European imperialist ideologies all converged in the logical conclusion that the native population should make way for thenewcomers.
The idea that the Palestinian Arabs must find a place for themselves elsewhere was articulated early on. Indeed, the founder of the movement, Theodor Herzl, provided an early reference to transfer even before he formally outlined his theory of Zionist rebirth in his Judenstat.
An 1895 entry in his diary provides in embryonic form many of the elements that were to be demonstrated repeatedly in the Zionist quest for solutions to the “Arab problem ”-the idea of dealing with state governments over the heads of the indigenous population, Jewish acquisition of property that would be inalienable, “Hebrew Land" and “Hebrew Labor,” and the removal of the native population.
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10 myths of Israel by Ilan Pappe, summerized and full book
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Transfer Committee and the JNF led to Forced Displacement of 100,000 Palestinians throughout the mandate.
Ethnic Cleansing
Historian Works on the History
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Palestine: A Four Thousand Year History - Nur Masalha
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The Concept of Transfer 1882-1948 - Nur Masalha
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A History of Modern Palestine - Ilan Pappe
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The Hundred Years’ War on Palestine - Rashid Khalidi
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The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine - Ilan Pappe
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The 1967 Arab-Israeli War: Origins and Consequences - Avi Shlaim
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The Biggest Prison on Earth: A History of the Occupied Territories - Ilan Pappe
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The Gaza Strip: The Political Economy of De-development - Sara Roy
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10 Myths About Israel - Ilan Pappe (summery)
It’s funny how Europeans didn’t feel the needed to give any of their land to the Jews, even though they’re responsible for the Holocaust.
What?!? This was a perfect opportunity to
get rid of Jews and Brown people at the same timesettle the promised land! Did you really expect theracistsupstanding European leaders not to take it?Actually, allot of countries let some lands for jews, but they don’t want it. They want specifically they holly land.
Source? And is it notably different than from, for example, the land the US government “left” for native Americans? Deliberately too small and unproductive to support the population’s needs?
Maybe because Britain had already mandated a Zionist quasi-state (that would eventually become modern day Israel) and Zionist Jews were already migrating there even before the Holocaust? Or are we simply ignoring that part of history?
No, we’re not ignoring Britain’s culpability at all. I guess you don’t get that Palestine wasn’t Britain’s land to give, or all the homes and farms Zionist seized.
So whose land was it to give then?
It’s a mystery.
I’m sure it is to you.
Edit: since Mr. Disingenuous isn’t going to get back on track I’ll leave my argument here. The reason I’m asking who is supposed to give the land is because if the governing body isn’t giving the land it means the people living the land should do it. But how are people supposed to give the land? Yes, people can physically give their land to Zionists but people can’t legitimize a Jewish Nation. It would just be, let’s say a Jewish town within Austria, but it would still be Austria and not a Jewish nation. Only the governing body can create a Jewish nation.
Also it’s not the European people who caused the holocaust and they were victims of the war as well. Their homes were destroyed, they needed to rebuild their lives, and then they also need to give their land to Zionists because of something they had no control over?
And while I do think Britain completely dropped the ball and is very much to blame for creating this conflict between Palestine and Israel, it’s very much history at this point and it’s pointless to argue over history. Pointing the finger at what Britain or Europe did or didn’t do a century ago does nothing because at this point it is what it is. If we want this conflict to end we should look at what can be done now.
Your colony is going to end up like the 3rd Reich.
I don’t even know what that means.
Also it’s not the European people who caused the holocaust
The Nazis weren’t European?
Were the majority of Europeans Nazis? Yes, a very specific subsection Europeans caused the holocaust, but that does not represent all Europeans. If you choose to generalize an specific region of the earth based on what one country did then I guess you’re a rapist because I’m pretty sure there are rapists in your country and I’m choosing to generalize your entire country (including you) based on those rapists. Except I won’t actually do that because that would be fucking stupid.
To get back on track, the other person used Europeans in a general sense which means I took it in the general sense. If they meant Nazis they should’ve said Nazis.
That brush you’re using there is the wrong size
Not really, Leopard isn’t remembered like Hitler because Hitler’s victims were European.
Having grown up in evangelical Christianity, I don’t quite understand the attack on liberals here?
Zionism is a major part for the conservative manifesto to create the New Jerusalem to bring forth the return of Jesus. Evangelicals view Jews as reluctant Christians yet to accept their king.
Liberals support Israel because of Cold War propaganda labeling. That evolved into the good guys versus terrorism propaganda we have now, which blinded us to things like stealing land, the blockade, interfering in elections, and indefinite detainment without charges or trial. It was all hand waived because “terrorists”. But in reality it was the only way left for them to try to defend their sovereignty.
It has been a political wedge issue used as a weapon by conservatives. Liberal buy-in to zionism is its primary support system.
lefties love to hate on liberals for whatever reason. Even though the definition of liberal is not very specific and encompassing.
I still haven’t quite figured out why. Idk if people just don’t broadly understand the definition of liberalism in a political context, or if it’s just “hurr durr not lefty bad” shenanigans.
on another note, if anybody in the comments has any expansive explanation to this, please, indulge my curiosity.
I think it’s American rugged individualism, conservatives have an easy time agreeing on binary decisions (women’s rights bad, science bad, immigrants bad, etc) whereas anything progressive requires complications solutions and problem definitions. In that there are many right answers, and liberals seem willing to be more angry with someone 95% in agreement with them rather than the people trying to drag the country backwards.
In the U.S., it’s from anger at the Democratic party. Mostly anger at, “when they go low, we go high,” “reach across the aisle,” “we need a strong Republican party,” tolerance paradox, and that kind of stuff. Liberal economics isn’t really compatible with leftism either.
It’s the new wrench to move the ratchet
Every
Balkan(edit:) European country: 🥸Also they could have done some land reparations without stealing Palestinian land, if anyone gave a shit. Pretty sure one of the countries that lost the war had a place called Judenberg already, for example.
Honoring cultural traditions - the super versatile Swiss Army Talking Point that works equally well for the good guys or the bad guys!
Must be nice to not have centuries of pogroms because of your ethnicity.
What’s that like to judge from that position ?
“We had it bad so now we get to do bad” is still bad
Reminds me of the idea of positive discrimination. Personally, if I knew someone hired me above an equally qualified candidate just because I belong to a minority group I would feel insecure about my abilities.
It is not common practice to do anything “just because” belonging to a minority group. This is just a lie that conservatives tell each other when they’re giving each other a good circle jerk.
This is basically the driver behind Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas’s asshole pathology.
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What if they hired you only because you are part of a majority group? Or does this only matter if it’s someone in a minority being hired?
So if you were equally qualified what should the manager think about when deciding between you two?
Flip a coin because I don’t hire unlucky people
They should choose the more qualified, if there’s literally no difference I suppose to be totally fair it should be random.
What qualifies being qualified for a job? Should I hire the person who knows a little bit less but is really pleasant to be around and like learning new things or the person who clearly knows more but is a huge pain to be around, thinks he’s better than everyone else, and doesn’t think he has anything more to learn?
Whatever your criteria are, as long as they aren’t based on protected characteristics such as race, gender, etc
So what you’re telling me is that being “qualified” isn’t the only criteria… But I thought you said the only thing that mattered was hiring the most qualified person…
Qualified is intentionally a vague metric as it can include anything that makes you suitable for the job. What it does not include are protected characteristics.
I’ll let you in on a secret. In these situations where you have two similarly qualified candidates, if one is actually more qualified in some small way, the employer doesn’t have any way of telling which one that is during the hiring process. It’s not that precise.
From what I’ve seen when those things were actually practiced, it’s somewhat different and broken into two parts:
- One one side, seriously incompetent people from the group which is a recipient of “positive” discrimination get jobs they should never have gotten and the quality of their work is going to be noticed by everybody else as long as they’re around and will reflect on others of the same group because the very act of segregating some people based on highly visible characteristics for the purposes of receiving special treatment strengthens the view of them as a group in other people’s minds, which in turn strengthens views such as “they’re all the same”.
- On the other side, the very competent people from the group which is a recipient of “positive” discrimination are seen by default by colleagues and even managers as inept, have to fight even harder for their competence to be recognized and often their ideas are just casually dismissed because everybody sees them as “somebody who only got the job because of the quotas”.
From what I’ve observed first hand neither feels insecure: the former play the influences game even harder than the rest because they know with absolute certainty that they’re only were they are thanks to social and political games, whilst the second just get angry and frustrated because they’re not treated as equals - because they are not equals since they’re part of a group which got privileges others did not - and thus not respected for their competence.
By creating a separate class of people, who don’t go have to pass as high a barrier as the rest, so called “positive” discrimination might land them the job but it also makes sure they’ll always be looked at as less competent, further reinforced in the minds of everybody else by those of that groups who are indeed “too incompetent for the job and wouldn’t have gotten it if it weren’t for quotas”
There are more than enough competent minorities to hire a couple for diversity. And hiring 10 diversity hires, out of a hundred, isn’t going to meaningfully impact opportunities for competent non minorities. This is some conservative bullshit trying to sneak in the idea that minorities are dumber than white people.
Sure mate, it can’t be that your “‘Equality’ But Different For Some Than For Others” is neoliberal cosplay of “left” rather than something genuinely left-wing AND that by preserving the differentiated treatment of people based on characteristics they were born with you’re just maintaining the very same mindset as the Fascists (that people’s gender/etnicity/sexual-orientation determines how they should be treated), no, no, no, it must be that it’s the other person (whose history of posts is there for all to see - so feel free to prove it) is a “conservative”.
By the way, when I described my conclusions of my own experience, I never said that the group who was getting “positive” discrimination was a minority. Funny how you jumped to conclusions.
Funny how you parroted conservative propaganda and continue to do so while acting concerned.
For anyone not familiar, minorities have had generations of poverty and trauma baked into them. You cannot transition directly to a complete meritocracy and magically repair that. They will remain oppressed and poverty stricken because it’s a systemic cycle. Affirmative action breaks that cycle.
Funny how the new age racists trying to pass themselves as leftwing can’t stop themselves from grouping people based on the genetics they were born with, just like the far-right.
No, “they” are not “all the same” and shouldn’t be treated as if they were.
The way you solve baked poverty from past discrimination is by solving the problems of Poverty, baked or otherwise, which is how a true leftwinger would go after it: you go after the greatest pain and removed it, guided only in the choice of which to go after first by its intensity (as that’s how you maximize the good you do) you don’t go around deeming every individual with the “right” genetics worthy of support no matter how little pain that specific individual is under and every individual with the “wrong” genetics not worthy of support no matter how much pain that specific individual is under.
For example, make sure the best schools are in the poorest neighborhoods and all of the sudden all the poor kids there have the best chances, and that includes the ones whose poverty is the product of past racial discrimination - breaking the cycle of poverty for all those kids will do a lot more good than a few quotas for only people with the right genetics in places that only help the middle-class.
(By the way, this is actually one of the strongest arguments for there not to be Private Education: so that money can’t buy greater life chances for the scions of those who are already better of and the State can channel more educational resources to were it’s needed the most)
The only reason to not go after wealth discrimination in general in Capitalism and instead doing very limited measures for only those with the right genetics, is to protect the Wealthy and Capitalism, which is the very opposite of being a Leftie, which is why you Neoliberals love this “lets not go after wealth discrimination which is the main method to transform other kinds of discrimination into lifelong pain and instead let’s do symbolic middle-class helping measures based on the genetics people are born with” shit.
You see, you’re the one doing the mindless parroting of neoliberal “solutions” fashionable in middle class circles and I’m the one who has been thinking about and guided by, for decades, the core leftwing principle of “the greatest good for the greatest number” rather than adopting unquestioningly some prepackaged ideological tidbits that are popular in my social circle.
i wonder why libs never apply this logic for Indigenous people on Turtle Island 🤔
Because Israel was always a colonialist project. The last one of a dead age. The people who like Israel think Thanksgiving was how settlers treated the Indigenous Americans.
Or, like, Palestinians.
Are the libs even making this argument? I thought genocide was too spicy for them now
They aren’t arguing in good faith
I mean English has three different words describing specifically persecuting Jewish populations with death.
This is not 100 years Hitler blah blah … this is talking about 15 centuries of Christian oppression.
Linguistically I’m still saying Jewish people need a safe space. And we, as nuclear Americans, call that safe space a fucking nation.
Oh, well then, I guess that justifies the ethnic violence and cleansing they’re committing today. If I’d known they’d suffered for centuries I wouldn’t have been upset that they’re now the ones creating the suffering.
And it had to be in Palestine? And it had to be an unregulated mess of Terrorism? It couldn’t have been in Germany where occupation forces were on hand to do an orderly transition, and from the country that actually committed the sin?
Everything about the forming of Israel screams, an excuse for one last colonial project. Because none of what you said makes what they did acceptable. The Palestinians didn’t hurt them. They just wanted to keep their land.
you see, every country would be fighting israel rn, if it’s land was taken by it, so does it really matter?
After world war 2 we absolutely adjusted the borders of countries and there was no issue. We could have easily given them a chunk of Northwestern German coastline. By 1955, when occupation forces left, it would be a done deal.
I’m not really sure they’d have been down with being Germany’s weaker neighbors, even if that was probably the only “fair” place to carve a nation from.
Nobody forced them to move to Israel after World War 2. Nobody would force them in a more ethical project either. “Carving” a nation out of people who didn’t fuck around and had already been there 4,000 years certainly wasn’t the answer.
but the way they split it was at least culturally coherent, they only took the ethnically different parts from germany for example, the only exception I can think of is southern tirol, where ethnic austrians where put into italy
also no one had to resettle, because they ended up in countries where people would share their culture and speak their language mostly, now if you took a big chunk of land where people lived, they wouldn’t really want to give it up
Huh. You don’t say. They wouldn’t want to give up their land. It’s almost like dropping a bunch of settlers somewhere isn’t going to result in flowers and unity…
Before WWII the Jewish people had adopted the US as Zion. They already had a country, we didn’t need to refuse their refugees and fuck that shit up.
Leftists only love failed independence movements. Jews worked and fought for centuries before succeeding in building an independent homeland. As soon as they succeeded, it became the “wrong” thing.
I’m not afraid to say:
Free Palestine
Free Tibet
Free First Nations
Free Kurdistan
If they hadn’t immediately started a project of displacing the people who had been there the last 2,000 years then you might have a point. But no they went straight to Terrorism, and we cheered.
How about when they started genociding it became the wrong thing?
Say that. Say “genocide” instead of “succeed” if you love facts so much.
Israel was never a movement for freedom, from the start it was a far right enthnonationalist colonial project.
Not exactly. Zionism was a labor-communist movement with an emphasis on fairly purchasing land from absent landlords, communal ownership, multiculturalism, agriculture, and independence for the native peoples of the region.
I know it goes against the popular narrative these days, but the nice thing about history is that it never changes. I’m happy to share primary sources or mainstream, independent scholarship on any of these points if you have followup questions on any of these points.
For now, here is a poster from 1900 to illustrate the point:
I feel like we’re talking about two very different things with the same name.
While that form of zionism may have existed at one point, it is completely irrelevant today, as the zionism seen in Israel is very much far right and enthnonationalist.
“Labor-Zionism” is reactionary and ethnonationalist, they perpetuated the Nakba were willing to work with the far right as long as they were Jewish (putting ethnic politics above workers unity). IMO they should be seen like how we see national Socialism and national Bolshevism.
sry friend, the free tibet part’ll get you banned here
everyone knows, that tibet isn’t a country, but actually belongs to glourios china, which is, even tho it has one of the highest billionair density in the world, a true socialist utopia… also uigurs are a western lie
Going against nation states will never get you banned from this instance.
sry, mistook it for a ml community
is them getting banned for that here in the room with us?
🤡
I was banned for that just recently on ml
then you just meant Lemmy in general? Bc this isn’t .ml or .world and they aren’t all of Lemmy
