Over 100 Israelis have died and more than 900 were injured after rockets were fired from Gaza by Hamas militants, Israeli officials said Saturday.
The Palestinian Health Ministry said 198 were killed in Gaza and at least 1,610 were injured Saturday in retaliatory attacks from Israel.
“We are at war. We will win,” Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said on Saturday.
The Israeli Defense Forces earlier declared “a state of alert for war,” according to a statement issued by the IDF.
“Over the past hour, the Hamas terrorist organization launched massive barrages of rockets from Gaza into Israel, and its terrorist operatives have infiltrated into Israel in a number of different locations in the south,” the IDF said early Saturday.
This is awful, and there are no good sides to it. Hamas are terrorists, and the Israeli government’s actions have made this kind of thing inevitable.
A lot of innocent people on both sides will die, nothing will get resolved, and both sides will continue to do horrible things to each other.
This sucks.
Is there a way that a nation can use the same means their oppressor uses to perpetuate apartheid for the purposes of resisting apartheid and not be labeled as “terrorist”?
You’re missing the point. Hamas brutally oppresses its own people, as does Israel’s goverment. This is a predictably violent response from a violent group in retaliation against another violent group, and innocent people in both countries who just want to live their lives will suffer for it.
There are no good guys here. Israel is ultimately at fault for its treatment of Palestine, but that doesn’t excuse Hamas tactics of executing civilians in their homes - tactics that will not work and will not bring anyone to their side.
This is going to be a long, shitty time for a lot of people and nothing will be solved. And that fucking sucks.
On a purely practical sense, ending the siege on Gaza would improve the lives of about 2 million people squeezed on a piece of land with a clean water crisis and no medical supplies. Israel, however, is unwilling to take such a step, and the stronger Hamas is, the less likely Israel is to compromise. The reality is grim, not because “either side” won’t budge, but because the situation is becoming increasingly impossible.
I’ve always hated Hamas’ tactics. They could have been a better resistance group, they could have not had an extremist idieology. And they could have stopped gambling with the lives of Gazans. All in all, Israel is an apartheid state and this the result of apartheid and decades of collective trauma.
It’s interesting that you mentioned apartheid. Although the ANC did declare an armed struggle against the White regime, in fact their attacks were inconsequential and contributed nothing to the struggle. The game-changer was a concerted campaign to mobilise world opinion. It was sanctions and isolation that ended apartheid, not bullets.
Mandela insisted to the end that turning violent was instrumental to actually getting attention. He went on to say this about how ineffectual their non-violent struggle was:
“The hard facts were that 50 years of non-violence had brought the African people nothing but more and more repressive legislation, and fewer and fewer rights.” --Mandela
They were largely ignored internationally while they were peaceful.
I trust his assessment of it over yours any day.
Put another way: How long do you think most people believe the anti-Apartheid struggle went on?
I’d be willing to bet most people have no idea about the decades of resistance to increasingly repressive laws that preceded the escalation. Even those vaguely aware that Mandela’s arrest happened in 1963, after the start of the sabotage operations.
They didn’t get much international support until the 1970’s, and that support was still fringe until the 1980’s, as violence had been ramping up for two decades.
Do you remember all the hijackings that occurred in South Africa in those days? All the hostage taking, and the civilians shot in cold blood? All the bombings of shopping malls and cinemas? No? Neither do I … because they never happened. Even in the face of massive repression, imprisonment, torture and murder of its leaders, the ANC focused their armed struggle on acts of sabotage and avoided as far as possible targeting civilians. They bombed electrical substations and oil refineries. They attacked police stations and military facilities. They never commited the barbaric acts we see today from Hamas. If they had I doubt that I, along with tens of thousands of others, would have marched in the streets demanding the release of Mandela.
You’re moving goalposts. You claimed ANCs attacks were inconsequential, and now you’ve changed your tone to focus on civilian attacks.
Sure, they carried out fewer and smaller civilian attacks than Hamas.
There are absolutely arguments over what the most effective use of violent resistance is, and to be clear I have never claimed that Hamas’ method is particularly effective, and it might very well be entirely counter-productive. What I argued was specifically against this:
Although the ANC did declare an armed struggle against the White regime, in fact their attacks were inconsequential and contributed nothing to the struggle. The game-changer was a concerted campaign to mobilise world opinion. It was sanctions and isolation that ended apartheid, not bullets.
But specifically to what you claimed in this latest reply, I do remember the bombing campaign that targeted a range of Wimpy burger joints during lunch hour. I do remember the regular use of limpet mines against sports venues, bus stations, shopping centres and other shops, restaurants. They were regular enough that they are one of the regular features of the 1980’s evening news that was seared into my memory as a child despite growing up half a world away.
The ANC liked to pretend they didn’t target civilians, but in the 90’s applications were made to the Truth and Reconciliation Committee by ANC members who admitted to bombing civilians, and ANC themselves submitted a lengthy list of bombings to the TRC which also included a long list of civilian bombings that they claimed to be “uncertain” who carried out but nevertheless submitted in a longer list of their operations alongside the police and military attacks you mention. These lists are readily available.
Mandela “escaped” being tarnished by this in large part because he was in prison from years before MK escalated from sabotage to bombings, and to this day it’s unclear how much he personally knew, especially about the civilian attacks. It’s clear other members of the ANC leadership, like Oliver Tambo and Joe Slovo, knew, however.
Apartheid started in 1948, but segregation had existed for 40 years by then, and the fight for equal rights preceded the formal start of Apartheid.
What is clear with respect to Mandela is that he doubled down on the necessity of violence to his death and was clear that things got worse during ANCs nonviolent fight and first improved when they started fighting back. He held onto that view to his death.
ANC was founded in 1912 as segregation was just ramping up. 36 years after they were founded, Apartheid was passed.
They didn’t start killing until 1976, after 64 years of the world mostly quietly ignoring them as oppression got worse and worse.
1 year after they started killing, the UN finally made the voluntary and ineffectual arms embargo binding. 8 years after they started killing, the disinvestment campaign started seriously hurting the South African economy. 13 years after they started killing, Thatcher called the ANC a terrorist organisation at the Commonwealth summit, but beside having gone from being seen as a harmless nuisance to being called terrorists by both the UK and US governments, they won the struggle 14 years after they took up arms. But 78 years after they started fighting.
As such, I’ll take Mandelas words on the importance of their armed struggle over yours any day.
Are there any sanctions at all on Israel, given the fact that every major NGO and human rights org has declared them an apartheid state?
We can’t do that because holocaust.
I actually now blame mostly Europe and the US by the continuation of the situation in Palestine.
It is clearly impossible to solve this from the inside (too much hate by now, too many assholes on both sides whose power rests in the assholes from the other side killing people), which is why I think the US’ and Europe’s treatement of Israel as if it’s a Developed, Democratic, Western nation, all the while it’s more akin to a Theocratic South Africa with a Russia-style leadership, is probably to blame more for this than anybody else (and I say this as an European) - they were the only ones who could have forced a peaceful resolution to this (rather than just mild criticism and no action, which is all that Europe did) by doing the same they did to South Africa, but instead they did nothing at all but hypocrite talkie-talkie (or, worse, taking sides), effectivelly endorsing the choices of the Israeli leadership and totally disenfranchising the Palestinians, prolonging this cycle - want to see who has the most blood in their hands on this, go look in the White House, Number 10, Deutsche Kanselarie, the Palace Du Eliseé and the minion-mindset national “leaders” all over Europe.
The reason even we here go around and around in circles ping-ponging blame between both sides is because both sides are dominate by assholes, so of course they both commit disgusting attrocities and there is no way they’ll ever solve it themselves (it’s tit-for-tat-for-tit-for-tat all the way down), so it’s the international community who has the responsability to force them to do it.
Clearly the cycle cannot be broken form the inside (unless by genocide, which seems to be what the Israeli leadership is aiming for), so it’s the refusal of the US and Europe to do the only thing that might solve this - treat Israel just like South Africa was treated during Appartheid and Hamas as a terrorist group (the latter of which they already do, but without he other side of the equation, to pull out the boot of the oppressor, there will keep on being people with nothing to loose that end up with Hamas so it survives ever in the worst conditions) that has kept the cycle of violence going.
Palestinians already tried a less extremist path. It didn’t work, they are still mass imprisoned by Israel.
Absolutely agreed. Peaceful resistence in Israel only helped a handful of towns not have their land destroyed by the separation wall. And even then it was totally shit for them and they pay the ultimate price.
Calling the tactic of "executing civilians in their homes” a Hamas tactic carries a lot of water for Israel as they shoot missiles directly into apartment buildings as you type.
I 100% condemn attacks on non-military targets like that. I’m not trying to carry water for Israel. I just won’t excuse Hamas, either.
There are no good guys in this. It’s a horrible, intractable situation. And make no mistake, it’s Israel’s fault, due to their illegal occupation. I won’t even remotely defend that. But that doesn’t make any of this OK.
as they [Israel] shoot missiles directly into apartment buildings
I didn’t see this part in the linked article. I do not condone Isreal’s treatment of Palestinian civilians, but I haven’t seen any reports like what you wrote. Do you have an additional source so I can read up?
might have been an hour or two before you were typing this actually.
Rest assured though, this wasn’t the only time, here’s another https://www.businessinsider.com/videos-show-israeli-airstrikes-leveling-gaza-apartment-buildings-2021-5?op=1
No. It will invariably be called terrorism.
ANC carried out terror bombings intentionally targeting civilians too after first trying non-violent protests, then trying sabotage, then targeting military, and not getting results. And they were called terrorists as well despite certainly doing far less harm than the regime they fought, and ignoring that while civilian, the majority of their victims were voters who had an active role in continuing to vote in the regimes engaged in the oppression.
The only way to stop being labeled terrorist is to win the conflict, like the ANC.
This is not a criticism of the ANC, btw… On a personal level I think some of their actions were deplorable, but I also think that it is fundamentally not up to any of us to judge the armed resistance of the oppressed unless we are actively fighting that oppression in better, more effective ways.
In other words: Personally, I think that anyone who is not personally at a minimum engaged in efforts to end Israeli oppression that is likely to right now be achieving more than armed Palestinian resistance has no moral standing to judge their actions.
And nobody here is.
The ANC won by mobilizing world opinion against the South African regime. The armed struggle was inconsequential and contributed nothing to ending apartheid.
Mandela disagreed with you, and maintained to the end that it was essential in mobilizing support. They got little attention until they ramped up.
The engaged in non-violent resistance against increasingly oppressive laws for decades with no support or attention, and achieving nothing. In fact Apartheid was put in place during, not before, that non-violent resistance, that was how little it achieved. The sanctions first started after ANC and others raised the stakes and violence started rattling the regime into escalation that caught attention.
However, whether or not it was effective is irrelevant to the argument I made, which is that unless you provide a better solution, you’re not in a position to judge how they fight back.
Why is this comment being downvoted?
Because people don’t understand that violence is necessary at times.
When you’re violently oppressed for decades while exhausting all peaceful options it gets to a point where you only have violent options left. Especially when the actual govt does fuck all to help you.
I agree in general but not THIS. Kidnapping, raping, and murdering random civilians, besides being monstrously evil, does not accomplish any goals.
When you’re cornered with no options, do you lay down and give up, or do you lash out indiscriminately without worrying how it will look or stop to rationally assess whether it will help?
You can’t take away people’s other options and then blame them when their reactions gets increasingly extreme, because doing so inherently favours the oppressors.
Yeah I can.
Hamas attacked IDF soldiers - regrettable, but it’s war. No one is really talking about that.
Hamas did these acts of indiscriminate barbarism - total condemnation. And rightly so. These are war crimes, and sickening ones.
They are war crimes.
At the same time it’s unreasonable to believe this won’t be the consequence eventually when you impose apartheid and carry out war crimes for decades.
As long as Israel maintains its illegal occupation and maintains it’s apartheid, and continue their own war crimes (including settlements - annexing occupied land is a war crime as well) it’s sheer hypocrisy to focus on the Palestinians desperate response, the same way it was when some focused on ANCs bombings of civilians rather than on the systematic oppression that created the situation in the first place.
Blaming the victim for punching the bully back is indirectly defending the bully, who in this case has a far higher death toll on their conscience.
The Resistance Française would’ve been labelled “terrorists” by the current standards.
Hamas sets up military operations in a civilian building by force - the civilians have no say in this and get killed if they protest Hamas then uses that building to launch rockets, store ammunition, communication stations How the fuck should Israel proceed to neutralize those sites? Because what they do is:
“Roof knocking”: Hitting the building’s roof with a small explosive to announce that it will fall in 15 minutes (see video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teevWpXlRZY example from yesterday) Automatic SMS and phone calls impacted areas warning and urging to evacuate Precision strikes that make the building fall vertically with minimal damage to the areas As a result, civilians (and potentially military personnel) are given a chance to evacuate while ammunition stashes, rocket launching stations etc stay in the building and are destroyed.
To be honest, I’m shocked those protocols are still used after Hamas’s attack. I would absolutely not be surprised of these measures stopped.
The anti-Israel don’t care that Israel is bending over backwards to minimize human suffering while fighting a decades long war against people who are deliberately trying to kill their children.
Remember how upset they are when Israel does something 100 percent defensive, like build a security fence to keep out an endless stream of suicide bombers?
This isn’t good-faith criticism.
These people hate Israel for this that they works be applauding other countries for. And we all know why
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Iranian goverment is celebrating the attack they backed.
Thousands will die from their weapons. Thousands more will be permanently disfigured or injured. Hamas put their HQ right in downtown, so when it got predictably destroyed, it hurt a bunch of civilians.
Not surprising since the Saudis and Israel were finally starting to make up, which Iran hates. But sad nonetheless. I hope the Israelis and Palestinians can come to an agreement, and that Iran gets a better, more peaceful government. But I doubt it.
:(
I hate absolutely everything to do with this.
Hamas sets up military operations in a civilian building by force - the civilians have no say in this and get killed if they protest Hamas then uses that building to launch rockets, store ammunition, communication stations How the fuck should Israel proceed to neutralize those sites? Because what they do is:
“Roof knocking”: Hitting the building’s roof with a small explosive to announce that it will fall in 15 minutes (see video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teevWpXlRZY example from yesterday) Automatic SMS and phone calls impacted areas warning and urging to evacuate Precision strikes that make the building fall vertically with minimal damage to the areas As a result, civilians (and potentially military personnel) are given a chance to evacuate while ammunition stashes, rocket launching stations etc stay in the building and are destroyed.
To be honest, I’m shocked those protocols are still used after Hamas’s attack. I would absolutely not be surprised of these measures stopped.
The anti-Israel don’t care that Israel is bending over backwards to minimize human suffering while fighting a decades long war against people who are deliberately trying to kill their children.
Remember how upset they are when Israel does something 100 percent defensive, like build a security fence to keep out an endless stream of suicide bombers?
This isn’t good-faith criticism.
These people hate Israel for this that they works be applauding other countries for. And we all know why
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The PNA seems like the good guys?
No good guys here. Hamas doesn’t seem to serve the Palestinians, they serve their own Jihadist agenda. Isreal remains a fascist apartheid regime which has been systematically killing all Palestinians in a genocide for decades.
There’s action and reaction here.
And reaction and reaction and reaction…going back 5,000 years
Gaza is a massive prison and they don’t have anything to loose anymore. Will Israel become the exterminator? We will see.
Murder of civilians celebrated by the whole of their society is not justified by reaction. I suggest you look at some other societies which react to genocidal crimes, for some reference. Most of them don’t do that.
Nah, this was the case with Palestinian Arabs all along. Since their “throw all Jews into the sea” till now.
ANC bombed civilians and their attacks were celebrated by many. The IRA did, and were celebrated by many. ETA did, and were celebrated by many. It is common, and suggesting it’s unique to Palestinians is pure racism.
EDIT: Ah, looked at one of your other comments that were equally awful. Block incoming.
I don’t think you know the difference between collateral damage and massacre. Or maybe you know that, just pretend to be a moron. I can accept your pretense, but not your point.
Are you suggesting it is not true that the groups he mentioned intentionally targeted civilians?
Perhaps you’re not old enough to remember the ANC bombing campaign against Wimpy restaurants, mainly timed to go off during lunchtime to maximise damage.
The Church Street bombing it’s reasonable to argue collateral damage for, but a burger chain doesn’t strike me as a legitimate military or government target you can play the “collateral damage” game with.
Maybe it was just ignorance of history that made you single out Palestinians.
OK. I don’t think IRA and ANC had that nasty habit of raping their victims and parading their mutilated bodies, or lynching them, and in general these were not genocidal in ideology while Hamas is. Is that sufficiently clear for you to comprehend?
FFS, I’m Armenian and I could give Israel another try at existing after turning it into radioactive ash, but defending these animals is just vile.
And now you’re making an entirely different point and evading addressing the gross generalization you made where you blamed not just Hamas but all Palestinians for the crimes of some and implied they were uniquely bad. At this point I agree with the other person who blocked you.
Your interpretation is fine. I’ll skip your “suggestions”, thanks.
Hamas gave being legitimate a try. Israel blocked their accession in the West Bank after they won the election. They were never given a chance to serve Palestinians.
I wouldn’t really expect them to idly stand by and let an organization whose charter is essentially “Death to Israel, death to all Jews” to come into power
There cannot be a peaceful coexistence between Israel and Hamas because (and their charter has a section explicitly devoted to this) Hamas does not want it, when they talk of “ending the occupation”, they don’t just mean of Palestine
Funny thing. If we used that logic then we’d all be dead. No war would ever end but with the complete annihilation of the loser and with nukes that means everyone.
Furthermore, PR line or not, Hamas was elected. Interfering to stop them from taking power is an act of war itself. Justify it how you want but Israel hasn’t given peace a chance in a long time.
When one side very explicitly states “there will be no peace, we will keep fighting until one of us is completely wiped out”, I struggle to see why the world should not oblige, and while the state of Israel is definitely not perfect it’s not very difficult for me lean towards the side that’s still managing to perform roof knocking over the complete and utter barbarism displayed by the Hamas terrorists over the fast few days
That’s funny because Israel has been violating international law and the laws of war for decades. Roof Knocking doesn’t absolve them of using Israeli law in occupied areas, shooting medical personal at unarmed protests, bombing UN facilities, or using White Phosphorus shells that airburst.
I’m not saying Hamas is fighting clean. I’m saying PR doesn’t make policy.
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Hamas sets up military operations in a civilian building by force - the civilians have no say in this and get killed if they protest Hamas then uses that building to launch rockets, store ammunition, communication stations How the fuck should Israel proceed to neutralize those sites? Because what they do is:
“Roof knocking”: Hitting the building’s roof with a small explosive to announce that it will fall in 15 minutes (see video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teevWpXlRZY example from yesterday) Automatic SMS and phone calls impacted areas warning and urging to evacuate Precision strikes that make the building fall vertically with minimal damage to the areas As a result, civilians (and potentially military personnel) are given a chance to evacuate while ammunition stashes, rocket launching stations etc stay in the building and are destroyed.
To be honest, I’m shocked those protocols are still used after Hamas’s attack. I would absolutely not be surprised of these measures stopped.
The anti-Israel don’t care that Israel is bending over backwards to minimize human suffering while fighting a decades long war against people who are deliberately trying to kill their children.
Remember how upset they are when Israel does something 100 percent defensive, like build a security fence to keep out an endless stream of suicide bombers?
This isn’t good-faith criticism.
These people hate Israel for this that they works be applauding other countries for. And we all know why
“Hey so I know we’ve been doing a genocide but look, we’re being really nice when we bomb innocent civilians homes by letting them know we’re going to bomb their homes.”
This (a) doesn’t excuse literal genocide and (b) is just a “nicer” version of exactly the thing they’re appalled Hamas just did. You don’t get to cry foul if you’re going to retaliate with a tit for tat play.
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There is only one country whose national religion is Judaism, but it is practiced in plenty of other places.
More to the point, the fact that there are other Islamic countries is of little comfort to the Palestinians. They do not live in those countries and those countries do not want them.
Some of those countries do provide varying levels of support for Hamas because they (accurately) see it as an indirect way to attack Israel.
By the same token, any blame you want to place on Israel for this conflict reflects on Isreal as whole, and not every individual living within it.
The whole reason why other Islamic (Arab) countries don’t accept Palestinians is so that they retain their “rightful” claim to lands annexed by Israel from the 1948 Arab-Israeli war.
The Palestinians did it to themselves that they couldn’t live peacefully with the Israelis back then and should accept the outcome of the war as a failing of the Arab League and their resistance.
Besides, you can’t deny that the Arab world owes some debt to the Palestinians to accept their refuge since it was the Arab League that lost all those attempts to retake Palestinian lands (amongst other things), and yet they don’t do it.
The religious aspect of all this is just secondary to the secular reason.
Dude. The Palestinians only ever reacted in that time frame. It was the Jewish settlers that attacked the British soldiers and then turned on the Palestinians. Go ask a British military historian.
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You realise just how racist it sounds when you’re blaming the Palestinian people as a whole for the actions of a subset?
When a huge majority support it, is it racist to say they support it?
Do you have evidence that a huge majority wants to take over states if they are invited in, which was the claim you were making?
To quote you:
The whole reason they don’t take Palestinians in is because Palestinians try to take their country over.
It happened in Jordan, it happened in Lebanon. It will happen anywhere they are allowed to congregate.
This is full on far-right “if you let those immigrants in they’ll take over” rhetoric.
EDIT: I’d also like to point out, that in fact this notion of a people coming in and trying to “take over” ironically given the context here has a long-standing history as an anti-semitic trope when used against Jewish people. It’s no less of a racist trope when employed against other groups, though.
Treating all muslims as if they’re all the same and interchangeable is pure racism.
Well by another definition they all have the same core religious view. Just as any other religion that perpetuates collective hysteria and war. Humanity is better without any kind of organized dogma. Let’s jettison the stone age thinking.
If all they did was argue for jettisoning stone age thinking, I’d have been all for that. But instead the person I replied to engaged in just another variant of the same stone age thinking.
So they should give up their homes, land, resources, and culture for the last gasp of colonialism?
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Jews can own land all over the world. So can Muslims. This is a false dichotomy.
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There’s a hundred countries they can both live in without problems. There is no amount of past trauma that justifies ethnic cleansing for literal settlers to move in.
As a Jew, no, there is no country in the world I can live in without problems, including Israel. America has been wonderful to us, but I grew up seeing swastikas spray painted on my synagogue and being taunted by the goyim. A far cry from the persecution my ancestors have endured, but I don’t delude myself into thinking I’m safe here if the economic/political situation deteriorates.
As somebody else pointed out, reducing the people in Palestine to Muslims and they treating all people who happen to be muslims as if they’re as the same, is pure unadulterated racism of the worst, most disgusting, kind.
How does it feel to be the exact caricature Hamas shows the children of slaughtered families for recruitment?
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There was a joke on Rick and Morty that Rick got the Palestinians and the Israelis to sign the treaty of “peace plan that works if you think about it a bit”.
I am sure every commenter has one of those plans in their back pocket that would work if implemented. The problem is there is no incentive. In Palestinine, Hamas grows stronger the more Palestinians hate Isreal, and their opposition grows stronger the more Palestinians want peace. Meanwhile Likud grows stronger the more Israelis hate Palestinians, and the opposition grows stronger when Israelis want peace. Why would either side implement something that would decrease their power?
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Yeah, there’s another quote in Rick and Morty: “Everyone is trying to take over the galaxy, the trick is to be left alone by whoever wins.”
I think it’s sad how Gaza is apparently blockaded by Israel. I’m not sure if the people there are literally being held captive, but if that’s the case then I can definitely understand their frustration and the lengths they would go to in order to fight back.
If they’re allowed to leave, I think they should’ve just done that. It’s never easy, but unfortunately would be the best option in an imperfect world.
*looks west to Egypt. hmmm
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The only way that is solve is from the outside.
Which means treating Israel as Appartheid South Africa was treated, and Hamas as a terrorist group.
However only the last part is done, so the result is every day in Palestine people are born who will live under the boot of Israel and eventually feel they have nothing to loose because of Israel and Israelis, and join Hamas to fight the oppressor, because it’s only way to do something with a lifetime of anger and because even being part of a Hamas deemed a terrorist organisation all over the world and limited in their action, status and wealth by it, is still better than a “nothing to loose” situation.
The refusal of Europe and the US to also force the one with the most to lose - Israel - to pull back the boot that’s making all those “nothing to loose, desperate and angry” alongside their attempt at making Hamas an unappeling option is what has kept the cycle of violence going.
The blood is mainly on the hands of the US leaders and a number of European leaders because they’re the only ones who could stop this (since they’re the only ones with the power to stop both sides at the same time, which is the only way to sort this out) and they most certainly have the kind of bright and well informed advisers who would have pointed it out to them, and instead have endorsed Israel’s strategy of “tire the Palestineans till they give up and leave”, in other words, endorsing genocide.
This. Peace cannot come unless the civilians on both sides are loudly and forcefully willing to die rather than kill civilians on the other side. The problems can only be solved on an individual level.
The problem is there is no incentive. In Palestinine, Hamas grows stronger the more Palestinians hate Isreal, and their opposition grows stronger the more Palestinians want peace. Meanwhile Likud grows stronger the more Israelis hate Palestinians, and the opposition grows stronger when Israelis want peace. Why would either side implement something that would decrease their power?
This is by design. I guarantee Israeli money gets funneled to Hamas so Hamas can in turn attack Israel then Israel retaliates with far far more force as usual, so on so forth.
The easiest way to get rid of Palestine when you have every major super powers backing is to simply cause then to attack you and win a war of attrition, subjugation, annexation, absorbtion and either erasure or outright propagandizing the entire thing. Like the US and Canada have done with native Americans.
I’m not a supporter of Israel but do you have any source that supports this speculation? Seems irresponsible to bandy it about.
Well there’s the fact that Israel legitimately got Hamas started in the first place because it hampered the Palestinian left in their efforts to combat the settlements.
Other than the fact that Hamas was explicitly created by Israel to feed a secular v non secular Palestinian fued? They deny it but everyone knows they’re lying because the Israeli army quite literally stepped aside or left when they showed up.
My knowledge on Hamas amounts to the first half of their Wikipedia page so I’d love to learn some more about their. While I can Google their name I’m going to get some weirdly biased shit that will probably contradict itself quickly. Got any suggestions for sources I can read up on to learn more about Israel’s influence there?
You probably talking about this article
https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/
That article has such a stupid take. It takes tiny pieces of quotes from a couple of ex-Israeli officials and with one of them is clearly omitting context. Did Israel permit Islamist groups to do stuff like build mosques and have charities? Yes. Did he also say, but it is not mentioned in the article, that they were completely peaceful at the time and that Israel didn’t want to be viewed as attacking Islam? Also yes.
See, what you are saying is that Israel created Hamas by not using more oppression to stop these groups at a time when they were not attacking Israel, but the PLO was. And that is just such a simple naive take that it is ridiculous. Yeah if Israel could redo things, they might have decided that was a good idea. But then again, what if it just caused more attacks from the surrounding countries after they were claimed to be “attacking Islam.” Then would we also blame Israel for those attacks due to them repressing the Islamist movements?
It even does the same by using cherry picked foresight about Afghanistan. It entirely ignores the situation in Afghanistan and just implies that the US caused Al Qaeda. Things just aren’t that simple. It’s entirely possible that had the US and other countries not interfered in Afghanistan that the soviet union would’ve lasted longer and Afghanistan might’ve been another Chechnya.
At the time, Israel was having to fight against the PLO. They were not fighting against the religious Islamic groups. And knowing the history of the time period and the politics in the region, the very religious groups were not nearly the force that they are now. So they made choices for reasons that absolutely made sense at the time. And we have no way of knowing how things would be different if they made different choices.
We can say that places that aren’t Israel still have issues with the Muslim brotherhood or are friendly with them all over the middle east. And Israel certainly didn’t create the Muslim Brotherhood. And if Israel didn’t exist and it was all a Palestinian state with a secular government, it isn’t a stretch to say that they would be in that area too, calling for an Islamist government. As they have done in Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Iraq, and more.
Poor take buddy, the us didnt create al queda no. They did however push enough Intel and weapons into their hands they became the regional power for a time.
There is cause and effect and you can’t ignore any of it especially the result regardless of if it was intentional or simply poorly thought out.
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There absolutely were resistance groups all the way up to 1960 boss, they just got called terrorists at that point. Less bloodletting? The native school system in Canada has hundreds of thousands of deaths on it’s hands and mass graves get discovered like legit every year.
There absolutely is a systemic attempt to exterminate native populations in the United States, go to a reservation and you’ll change your tune real real fuckin fast.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Indian_Wars
Educate yourself.
This one is a particularly gripping episode in history: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nez_Perce_War
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Sure, but not for the reason you gave.
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.
Yeah poor Hamas, he had no choice but to murder civilians
Hamas sets up military operations in a civilian building by force - the civilians have no say in this and get killed if they protest Hamas then uses that building to launch rockets, store ammunition, communication stations How the fuck should Israel proceed to neutralize those sites? Because what they do is:
“Roof knocking”: Hitting the building’s roof with a small explosive to announce that it will fall in 15 minutes (see video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teevWpXlRZY example from yesterday) Automatic SMS and phone calls impacted areas warning and urging to evacuate Precision strikes that make the building fall vertically with minimal damage to the areas As a result, civilians (and potentially military personnel) are given a chance to evacuate while ammunition stashes, rocket launching stations etc stay in the building and are destroyed.
To be honest, I’m shocked those protocols are still used after Hamas’s attack. I would absolutely not be surprised of these measures stopped.
The anti-Israel don’t care that Israel is bending over backwards to minimize human suffering while fighting a decades long war against people who are deliberately trying to kill their children.
Remember how upset they are when Israel does something 100 percent defensive, like build a security fence to keep out an endless stream of suicide bombers?
This isn’t good-faith criticism.
These people hate Israel for this that they works be applauding other countries for. And we all know why
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It’s a violent revolution to extinction. All the more political capital for the Netanyahu government to rapidly encroach.
I find the timing of this suspicious, given there’s rumours the negotiations between the US and SA are in their final stages.
If SA is about to throw Palestine under the bus, as is rumoured, that could explain the timing.
You’re on point, Hezbollah released a statement backing up that claim, a warning for “normalization”.
But how would this attack do anything to discourage Saudi Arabia from signing that treaty?
It wouldn’t. That’s the point. Having Hamas do that seems like a perfect excuse to throw palestine under the bus. Which they would do with the agreement, anyhow. Now they have a reason.
Ah, I see what you mean, but I don’t think I agree. There’s no relevant party that is opposed to this attack, opposed to the treaty, and important enough to justify the risk of getting caught.
Iran trying to get the first move advantage in what they’d deam the inevitable opening of yet another proxy war with KSA
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I have much higher hopes for the UN council assigned to this issue and any UN Task Forces deployed in the future.
LOL! You really don’t understand anything about how the world works, do you?
I believe Israel mostly caused this issue on their own by the apartheid oppression of Palestinians, I think this outcome and many other attrocities would have been completely avoided in the timeline where Rabin wasn’t assassinated
Conveniently skipping over Ariel Sharon there aren’t you? You know that time when Israel removed all settlements and ended the occupation of part of Palestine as a goodwill gesture? What happened after that? Something for you to look into.
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Yes the UN can help in being observers after a ceasefire is agreed upon.
Does it look like there’s an imminent ceasefire agreement between Israel and Hamas?
Do you think there’s are UN citizens that sign up for the UN military and go through training to serve on UN missions? Not how it is.
The way it really works is the UN asks actual countries to provide soldiers for these missions. So which countries do you think are going to send their soldiers to fucking Gaza based on a promise by Hamas not to attack them?
And UN observers don’t fight wars. They just report to both parties of the ceasefire the activities of the other. If either side takes military action the observers leave. Hamas fires rockets at Israel every week. Just that the Iron Dome takes them out and you don’t hear about it. But if you’re the leader of a country are you going to send your soldiers somewhere there will constantly be rockets flying over them with the potential that if the Iron Dome might clip on and divert it into your soldiers?
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You’ve obviously consumed a lot of internet propaganda originating from Iran.
Israel’s intent were actually genocide they could simply drop a nuke on Gaza and there would be nothing the UN could do to stop it. They don’t do that because their intent isn’t on genocide.
Also the UN cannot be in Israel without the consent of Israel. Nations have ultimate sovereignty over their territory there is nothing about the UN that supersedes national sovereignty. Seems you’ve also fallen prey to the “black helicopter” UN conspiracy theories, just you think UN black helicopters are a good thing. The reality is they don’t exist, UN peacekeepers are only where they are because nations have agreed to their presence to observe the other party of a treaty (and will allow themselves to be likewise observed) to ensure they are complying.
You should take some time to learn about how things work in the world instead of just believing everything you read on social media. The can provide tools that nations can use to facilitate peace, but the nations themselves decide whether to use those tools.
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Israel sends Netanyahu to court over many things. He’s a really crooked dude. So you’re gonna have to narrow down which specific case you’re going on about.
Fuck islamist terrorism. Fuck Hamas.
I agree, but also fuck apartheid and fuck Israel
Fuck them both basically, but for different reasons.
was the warsaw ghetto uprising terrorism? gtfoh liberal
How can Hamas even think they have an iota of a chance against a military power like Israel?
It makes no sense.
It makes sense, but not the way you think. They know they are going to lose. They know they are going to suffer greater retaliation. But they will have to endure it. And they know many of them will die because of it. They were ready to face the consequences.
I don’t think this campaign is against the Israeli government. It’s a strategic move targeted towards the illegal Israeli settlers and those who dare to encroach into the disputed Palestinian land! - to instill traumatic fear. It’s a warning message to these people, even though the have the best military and the best surveillance techs, the government can’t protect them. A stern message to them: If you dare to take this land from us, one day we will come to take it back from you, even your life, at the time you least expected and every efforts you put before will be in vain.
You’re forgetting the key aspect – they want Israel to attack. These are hardcore committed militants. They want to kill their enemies or die trying. They want other people to feel the same way, but too many Palestinians are just trying to live their lives and survive day-to-day.
By attacking Israel, they know they’re going to prompt a vicious counter attack that will kill and maim a lot of Palestinians. That’s good from the point of view of the Palestinian militants. More people who lose their loved ones to Israeli attacks means more angry people wanting to lash out. That means more of them will hate Israel even more, and be even more willing to risk their lives to try to destroy Israel.
It’s also a gift to Netanyahu and the right-wingers in Israel. They want the Israeli population to be scared and angry, because when they’re scared and angry they support the right-wingers. This instantly solves all the political and legal problems that Netanyahu had.
This is the same strategy that Osama bin Laden used with the Sept. 11th terrorist attacks, and it worked perfectly. He knew that the US would flip out and overreact and kill hundreds of thousands of people as a result. He hoped they’d attack Saudi Arabia because his biggest conflict was not with the US, but with the government there. Instead the US attacked Iraq and Afghanistan, but that was almost as good. It drove recruitment for al Qaeda, and later for the Islamic State.
Not surprisingly, I do agree with your perspective: They want Israeli to attack. They want to
chancechange the status quo.They want other people to feel the same way, but too many Palestinians are just trying to live their lives and survive day-to-day.
When you say ‘many Palestinians’, I would say those are the ones who live in the West Bank, controlled by Fatah. Fatah made acceptable deals with Israeli, and somenow their live are getting better, more survivable. But Hamas doesnt agree with these deals. They have a very narrow mindset which is: No deals with the Israel, period. And the people of Gaza supported this POV and they elected Hamas in the first place, which means they are ready to suffer the consequences when giving the support.
Palestinians are divided into two fractions. In some ways, the attack could be an attempt to reunite and change it back to one.
They have a very narrow mindset which is: No deals with the Israel, period
Hmm, I’ve heard that before, with slightly different phrasing: “we don’t negotiate with terrorists”.
It seems like a good view.
Except that these attacks weren’t against the settlers (who are taking land in the west bank), it’s targeting the civilians in South Israel who have lived there for ages. I think the world was expecting to see this violence in the west bank, not gaza.
I could be wrong on that. I stand corrected if that’s the case.
I think the world was expecting to see this violence in the west bank, not gaza.
Yes, but it’s best to attack where it is least expected. Other than that, it’s open to discussion/speculation. Whatever it is, it is a very well thought and executed plan where they expect great retaliation. One thing, The Hamas don’t trust Fatah, and some pro-Palestin Muslim even regard Fatah as traitor. Maybe the Saudi-Israel normalisation plan got something to do with it? Maybe someone can give their input on these.
I check Ofakim, one of the affected area.
In 2010, about one-fifth of the residents were ultra-Orthodox and one third were immigrants from the former Soviet Union. Most of the rest were members and descendants of the founding generation of the immigrants who arrived in the town in the 1950s and 1960s. In addition, there are small communities of Ethiopian Jews and Palestinians originally from the Gaza Strip who were resettled in Israel after collaborating with Israeli authorities.[5][6]
According to the Central Bureau of Statistics, Ofakim had a population of 30,662 in 2019, and the population is growing at a rate of 1.4% a year. The percentage of the share of the Arab Palestinian population of Ofakim is very small and about 0.7%.[1]
You’re right on that. They population has been there since the 50s.
it’s targeting the civilians in South Israel who have lived there for ages
Not for ages. Only since the country was split into two with no regard for actual Palestinian input on this. There’s been less than 100 years since then. Not enough time to heal, especially when nothing was done to make things right. It’s like telling black people in the US in 1700 “it’s been ages since you’ve been brought here on a boat, just let it go, this is the way things are now”. Very much fuck you & no.
It seems like a very clear message by Hamas: if you moved into my house by force, you are not a civilian. Get out of my house.
It still makes no sense to me from that perspective. Shouldn’t they, of all people, understand that trying to frighten people into submission can instead embolden them? Israel’s brutal actions against Palestinians didn’t crumble Hamas. It created more support for it.
What do they think will happen now? They’ve attacked and kidnapped civilians. Even people sympathetic to the Palestinians plight are horrified at this.
All Hamas has done here is turn more of the world against them, brutalized civilians, and actually given Israel partial justification for their response. This is the first time in my adult life that I’ve seen such violence against Israel.
People can only take so much. It’s part of the bully play book. Push them until they break and then blame them for everything.
The only options are be genocided or be genocided quicker if there’s no fear of retaliation. They’re choosing to go out on their own terms.
Hamas sets up military operations in a civilian building by force - the civilians have no say in this and get killed if they protest Hamas then uses that building to launch rockets, store ammunition, communication stations How the fuck should Israel proceed to neutralize those sites? Because what they do is:
“Roof knocking”: Hitting the building’s roof with a small explosive to announce that it will fall in 15 minutes (see video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teevWpXlRZY example from yesterday) Automatic SMS and phone calls impacted areas warning and urging to evacuate Precision strikes that make the building fall vertically with minimal damage to the areas As a result, civilians (and potentially military personnel) are given a chance to evacuate while ammunition stashes, rocket launching stations etc stay in the building and are destroyed.
To be honest, I’m shocked those protocols are still used after Hamas’s attack. I would absolutely not be surprised of these measures stopped.
The anti-Israel don’t care that Israel is bending over backwards to minimize human suffering while fighting a decades long war against people who are deliberately trying to kill their children.
Remember how upset they are when Israel does something 100 percent defensive, like build a security fence to keep out an endless stream of suicide bombers?
This isn’t good-faith criticism.
These people hate Israel for this that they works be applauding other countries for. And we all know why
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All Hamas has done here is turn more of the world against them
Sure, until Israel overreacts and starts a war that kills tens of thousands of Palestinian civilians. Then people’s sympathies will go back to the underdog in the fight, which is the Palestinians.
Yay…?
A combination of this and a religion that brainwashed them into thinking that if they die while trying to murder other people that they will go to paradise and have a bunch of little girls as wives.
Man you’ve got a real hard on for Hamas.
We are trying to analyze and make sense of the situation, and all you can add to the discussion is by attacking me ad hominem? Thanks.
You’re so welcome buddy
that’s the spirit. have a nice day.
I don’t think there’s any arguing with the stone cold fact that Israel has killed more civilians than Hamas.
I never argued that.
A victim of bullying will eventually lash out whether or not they think they have a chance because they become desperate.
Are they a victim of bullying when their official policy is the destruction of their neighbors culture?
They are a victim of bullying when they’ve been under decades of illegal occupation. Hamas is an awful organization, but it was only formed as a result of ongoing brutal oppression. When you keep punching someone in the face, sooner or later they’ll start punching back, and sometimes they’ll fight dirty. That doesn’t make them good, but the bully is still the one who kicked things off in the first place and the one who should be first and foremost held responsible for the situation they created.
Hamas individual victims get my full sympathy; they’re victims of both Hamas and Israel. Israel as a state does not - without their brutal oppression, extensive war crimes, and apartheid regime, there wouldn’t be any Hamas in the first place.
What if the bully went up to someone and said “I’m going to fucking kill you” and then tried to kill them using all means possible all because the bully and the other person exist in the same area? Only Palestine and Hamas before now were the ones saying the Jews deserved death AND acted upon it multiple times. I had sympathy for their plight until they indiscriminately killed people who had zero interaction with their problems. I’m sure those thai workers and rave tourists, massacred, raped, killed and kidnapped has a lot to do with the fucking situation between Israel and Hamas/Palestine. Israel isn’t clean, but in 1 day and 1 act became the cleaner of the 2 in non Arab public perception.
What if the bully went up to someone and said “I’m going to fucking kill you” and then tried to kill them using all means possible all because the bully and the other person exist in the same area?
This sentence alone shows your complete and utter lack of understanding of the situation and the history that has led to it.
Jewish population in 1917 was 8%, but 1936 that was 28%. In 1948, during the Nakba, it jumped from 32% to 82%. Palestinians were the indigenous people of Palestine until the Zionist movement INTENTIONALLY AND SYSTEMATICALLY took over, killed, burnt down, and destroyed not only men women and children, but every facet of Palestinian culture they could.
They shut Palestine out of negotiations and diplomatic channels, and ran straight-up propaganda campaigns in America to convince numbskulls like you who believe the slant they hear on Fox news about how Hamas are just terrorists.
Hamas actually attempted to be a legitimate government that played by the rules, as did the PLO. They were backstabbed, lied to, led on, and ignored by US, UN, Israel, Britain, etc.
I had sympathy for their plight until they indiscriminately killed people who had zero interaction with their problems
You can have sympathy for the plight of the Palestinian people while condemning actions taken by militants. Nuance is possible here.
And yet the Palestinian population grows each year.
Wow it’s almost as if Palestinians want to return to their fucking homes that they were forced out of, Jesus what a shocker, zomg
Nice “whatabout”, but the bully here is the party that engaged in an illegal occupation, the crime of apartheid, and extensive war crimes (annexation through settlement of occupied territory) in the first place. That you try to redefine away the fact that Israel created this situation in the first place borders on apartheid-apologism. It’s exactly the same tactic used by supporters of South African apartheid to dismiss the situation in South Africa whenever the ANC carried out a violent operation, and it was apologism for oppression then, and it is apologism for oppression now.
Nah fam, if you want to play that game Arabs invaded Jewish communities that had settled there during the muslim conquests, that’s over 2,000 years of illegal occupation. If you’re fine with that, you should be fine with Israel taking back their land at the “edge of a sword”.
Also it’s funny to hear you say killing innocent people not involved with the conflict is “apartheid apology”
Only one party is currently illegally occupying land they have legal claim to and engaging in the crime of apartheid. Only one party is engaged in fighting against an illegal occupier. That you choose to argue in favour of the apartheid regime engaged in an illegal occupation says enough.
That “game” of which you speak is an appeal to privilege in its most obscene form: claiming an ancestral myth that allows you to impact extreme violence against other humans whose only crime is being born into the wrong bloodline.
It’s 2023 CE out here but some cultures are pretending it’s 2023 BCE
When you say ‘destroying their neighbors culture’ - are you talking about Israel or Palestine?
Clearly Palestine. They’re the ones with a government they elected that literally put “destroy all Jews” in their founding charter.
Well, Israel was actively destroying culture as well. We’ve all seen the videos of Palestinians being evicted from their homes by Israeli military /police.
In fact Id say thats way worse than words on paper. Systemic actions to destroy
Why leave out the fact that the Jews also have an equally legitimate claim on the land, in addition to having been taken close to the brink of total extermination by circumstances completely beyond their control? A normal, compassionate individual would welcome these people in, make room for them, and live at peace under a stable society, tolerant of different points of view. However, that is not what the Jews encountered upon the creation of Israel. It was just a continuation of the campaign to exterminate them, from a different group. Are you going to argue that it’s bad for Germans to murder Jews, but it is okay for Muslims?
Firstly, see “The law of belligerent occupation in the Supreme Court of Israel”, David Kretzmer, Professor Emeritus of International Law at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, published in the International Review of the Red Cross, 2012:
Not even the Israeli government or the Israeli Supreme Court agree with you that Israel has a legitimate claim to the territories beyond their internationally recognised borders. Maybe somebody here is talking about the entirety of Israel, but I am not, nor have I ever. If Israel were to withdraw to their borders, and Palestinian attacks still continue, then there’d be at least room for discussion of blame.
Until then, as long as Israel itself legally recognizes that it is an occupying power, there is none.
Secondly, people’s experience of being oppressed does not recognize law. Irrespective of who has ownership of what, Israel is engaged in treating Gaza in particular as an Apartheid-style bantustan, and is committing crimes against humanity by doing so.
Whether or not you agree with the legal position on that, when someone places people in those conditions, then it is entirely on them when they hit back.
Blaming people for resisting gross abuse because you don’t like how they do it when you’ve put them in a situation where they have no realistic opportunity to fight clean is victim-blaming.
Are you going to argue that it’s bad for Germans to murder Jews, but it is okay for Muslims?
Nice try. I’ve not argued it is okay for anyone. I’ve argued in some threads that unless you’ve provided a better alternative (and not suggested it; actually tried to make it come to pass), then like the rest of us you’re not in a moral position to judge people for taking desperate steps to try to fight back.
That doesn’t mean not feeling for the victims, because they had no power to end this either. It doesn’t mean not thinking it’s a horrible situation. It doesn’t mean you can’t get angry. It means resisting the urge to assign the blame to a people the vast majority of whom have been born into effective bondage under an apartheid regime for taking desperate and irrational actions to try to end a gross abuse they have no realistic power to change.
They are desperate, frustrated, angry… They are human.
Neutrally looked at, a couple of french farmers and craftmen had no chance against the french military of 1789. But they where pushed to a point where they believed doing nothing is worse than dying trying. By chance they actually stormed the Bastille and kickstarzed a very dark chapter in french history.
It’s not like the position of the people of Gaza is going to improve…
Exactly. The same thing happened before again and again. The result was always the same. Death and misery for the people in Gaza.
The whole region needs to be put under supervision by an international committee and bring Israel’s borders back to its original limits and give back the right to the people of Gaza and West Bank the right to their own land and allow them to exchange with other nations.
bring Israel’s borders back to its original limits
Which the Arabs voted against in the first place. They never wanted a Jewish state there and their rhetoric would suggest they still don’t. The only difference is now there is one, and there has been for most of a century.
They’re genocidal lunatics covering their hatred in colors of justice and victimhood
They don’t care about an actual chance, they just follow the directions their masters in tehran give them because they’ll happily make themselves dogs if it means they get to go full turner diaries wet dream mode.
They are targeting civilians not the military. They want to cause so much pain and suffering the Israeli people will push their govt to cede demands of Hamas to stop the fighting, or emmigrate somewhere else
They have been pushed into a corner and kept on getting squeezed, so probably feel they have no other options (and might very well be right in light of what has happenned in the last decade).
Had Israel stopped expanding “colonates” and taking palestinian land, I doubt the likes of Hamas would have the internal support and manpower to do what they just did, but over the last several decades Bibi and his predecessors have been just dubbling down and announcing ever more anexation of land.
The massive difference in military power is also probably the reason for the kidnappings: I suspect it’s a “strategy” to try and get the Israeli authorities to not just bomb the whole of Gaza.
Whilst I disagree with their methods I can see how over 70 years, given the trend in israeli politics and the lack of genuine and effective pushback from the international community against appartheid in Israel and the occupation, so many Palestineans have come to believe they have no other options than this kind of thing and personally I actually see no other option (even this they’re doing now is not really an option, more like a lashing out of the desperate).
It is clearly impossible to solve this from the inside (to much hate by now, too many assholes on both side whose power rests in the assholes from the other side killing people), which is why I think the US’ and Europe’s treatement of Israel as if it’s a Developed, Democratic, Western nation, all the while it’s more akin to a Theocratic South Africa with a Russia-style leadership, is probably to blame more for this than anybody else (and I say this as an European) - they were the only ones who could have forced a peaceful resolution to this (rather than just mild criticism and no action, which is all that Europe did) by doing the same they did to South Africa, but instead they did nothing at all, effectivelly endorsing the choices of the Israeli leadership and totally disenfranchising the Palestinians, prolonging this cycle - want to see who has the most blood in their hands on this, go look in the White House, Number 10, Deutsche Kanselarie and the Palace Du Eliseé.
It’s a shame because western countries were starting to recognize the apartheid situation in Israel and were starting to criticize it. I think had things gone a bit longer there would have been an intervention.
In any case, this whole thing is just sad. So many innocent lives are destroyed on both sides. And I sincerely think Israel, their government and the Jewish extremists are the root cause.
Hamas sets up military operations in a civilian building by force - the civilians have no say in this and get killed if they protest Hamas then uses that building to launch rockets, store ammunition, communication stations How the fuck should Israel proceed to neutralize those sites? Because what they do is:
“Roof knocking”: Hitting the building’s roof with a small explosive to announce that it will fall in 15 minutes (see video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teevWpXlRZY example from yesterday) Automatic SMS and phone calls impacted areas warning and urging to evacuate Precision strikes that make the building fall vertically with minimal damage to the areas As a result, civilians (and potentially military personnel) are given a chance to evacuate while ammunition stashes, rocket launching stations etc stay in the building and are destroyed.
To be honest, I’m shocked those protocols are still used after Hamas’s attack. I would absolutely not be surprised of these measures stopped.
The anti-Israel don’t care that Israel is bending over backwards to minimize human suffering while fighting a decades long war against people who are deliberately trying to kill their children.
Remember how upset they are when Israel does something 100 percent defensive, like build a security fence to keep out an endless stream of suicide bombers?
This isn’t good-faith criticism.
These people hate Israel for this that they works be applauding other countries for. And we all know why
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Well Hamas managed to kill hundreds of Jews in one sweep, for instance.
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Ukraine: Hey guys! What are we talking about?
This feels way too convenient for Netanyahu.
Nor really. A large part of Natenyahu’s platform is security. “Keep me in power and I will protect you”. He has failed in this spectacularly, and Mossads reputation will take a very significant hit. Hamas has made them look incompetent. Of course he will use this to demand more authority, but overall it is bad for him.
FYI: The Palestinian areas are the Shin Beths and to a lesser degree Amanns responsibility. Mossad is for foreign nations.
Point taken.
Somewhat, but it also undermines his “Mr. Security” image…a lot. He will assuredly blame it on the left, but when he’s running against former military brass, rings hollow. Also really pulls the rug out from under his various peace accords
Are we supposed to believe Israeli intelligence missed this?
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Well that’s not gonna be good for anybody
It’s a gift to the Yahoo.
not the sort of thing that’s good to wake up to. very sad
If one day someone comes to your house, the one you were born, the same house where your father was born, and his father before him. And starts killing, raping, torturing, executing, bulldozing the houses were your cousins lives, they don’t let you go to your sacred places, they don’t let you even move from the concentration camps and the walls they have erected.
What would you do? You fight, even if you lose you will fight, even if the world sees the injustice but simply doesn’t care, you will still fight, for them you are a terrorist, but for your people you are a freedom fighter, fighting against invaders.
I would agree with this, except that afaik both groups have a legitimate historical/religious claim to the territory. Additionally, you’re basically saying that Hamas is justified in slaughtering hundreds of unarmed people. I was sympathetic until they made the Las Vegas shooting look like a minor scuffle.
Seriously, I can sympathize with the frustration up to the point where suddenly murdering civilians is ok when “the good guys” are doing it.
Material conditions my ass, if it’s wrong for one it’s wrong for all.
And before any Hamaboos show their asses,
انا امريكاني فالاسطيني، جدي كن من بيتلحم،
My kin are not your shield for endorsing the same acts you hold up to demonize those you hate you Bougeyevik hypocrites.
Additionally, you’re basically saying that Hamas is [justified in slaughtering hundreds of unarmed
The fact the Israel state contribute to the creation of those monsters, you can’t expect the hate to just disappear.
I’m sorry to say, but this is how guerilla warfare goes. Sometimes civilians are casualties.
Did those civilians do anything to deserve it? Usually no. In this case though, they did. Some were already there, and they were responsible for starting the civil war by accepting to split the country. Others weren’t there, but came after that - trampling on another country’s ashes and disregarding its original citizens.
What are you going to do when civilians move into your home and declare it is theirs? Consider them civilians? Consider them innocents?
What would you do?
I would not beat, rape, and murder innocent people. That seems like a low bar to clear, right? Attacking military targets and personnel might be morally justified, but certainly not what they did over the weekend.
How many of the “terrorists” (the Islamic ones, not the Judaic ones) were actually from the oppressed populations, though? There are a lottttttt of people in that region that hate the Israeli government…Not sure how many of the displaced peoples you’re telling “this isn’t the right way to avenge violent state oppression” are actually participating in the fighting.
He didn’t tell any of the non participants any such thing… His statement obviously refers to those commiting the acts, not generalized to everyone.
That perspective does not excuse Israel’s behavior or blame any victim of Israel’s injustice, it simply points out the attacks are terroristic (meaning targeting civilians). Terrorists often have sympathetic reasons, but go about it in a way that is wrong.
Point taken, thanks for taking the time to lay it out.
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Oh please thats an absurd hot take.
Nah, man. If they cited all those things, or more importantly the complete stifling of Gazans’ ability to prosper or flourish today, that would be one thing. What did they cite instead? The desecration of the Al-Aqsa mosque. That is more important to them than the apartheid. Fuck Hamas. They’re accomplishing nothing more than the death of Palestinians and more suffering. And they just empowered the most right wing, unpopular government that Israel’s ever had, one that Israelis were divided against. Hamas and the Iranian regime need to be eradicated. They are hurting any chance at Palestinian freedom and equality and right to prosperity. And they’re just causing more and more every day normal Israeli/Jewish and Palestinian suffering. This Iranian regime supports the tyranny of the Syrian government over the Sunnis (and its use of chemical weapons against them), Russia’s terrorist attacks on civilians in Ukraine and the invasion of that country in general, the complete undermining of the Lebanese government by Hezbollah, and the complete overthrow of the Yemeni government by a similarly tyrannical group in Yemen. And it uses of rape and sexual violence and murder against men and women protesting the death of a woman caused by the morality police and the oppression of women by the regime.
I think the only way to accomplish either a true one state democratic nation that honors Israel-Palestine as the home of Judaism or a two state solution, is boycott and divestment (because there is no way to peacefully protest and engage in civil obedience to achieve freedom and equality (they murdered a journalist and nothing came of it) and there’s no way to win militarily). It worked with the apartheid government in South Africa, and hopefully it will work with Israel.
If the “fighting” means doing the exact same crimes to other innocents that is not making you the good guys.
Believe it or not, but the world isn’t simply comprised of goodies and baddies. We don’t live in a Marvel movie.
His point is that if you want international support don’t go around murdering innocent people then parade their bodies around.
He didn’t imply that Israel were the goodies. It’s more like both sides have people being baddies.
Also, you have a lot of innocent on both sides. That’s why both sides get called out for being baddies as they are hurting innocents. There’s a good chance that Hamas even killed some folks who have never done anything but be sympathetic to the Palestinian plight.
Terroristic is the right description, and can also be applied to some of Israel’s behavior towards Palestinians.
‘settlers’ aren’t innocent, colonizer
Israel is doing a genocide. Palestinians fighting back are absolutely not doing the same crimes.
Hamas are absolutely headbanging murderous zealots committing a lot of atrocities right now. But if you herd people up, deprive them of basic liberties, brutalize & kill a bunch of them, and steal their land at gunpoint and then you can hardly act all shocked that a bunch of them are radicalized and go on a rampage. Doesn’t matter if we’re talking what Israel has done to Palestinians or what the United States did to Native Americans. Maybe the lesson to learn here, is don’t do those things. But I expect that Israel will pound Gaza committing its own atrocities as payback and the same thing will happen again in another decade.
Why leave out the fact that the Jews also have an equally legitimate claim on the land, in addition to having been taken close to the brink of total extermination by circumstances completely beyond their control? A normal, compassionate individual would welcome these people in, make room for them, and live at peace under a stable society, tolerant of different points of view. However, that is not what the Jews encountered upon the creation of Israel. It was just a continuation of the campaign to exterminate them, from a different group. Are you going to argue that it’s bad for Germans to murder Jews, but it is okay for Muslims?
The Israel state was created thanks to the influence of wealthy Jews.
A normal, compassionate individual would welcome these people in, make room for them, and live at peace under a stable society, tolerant of different points of view
Until your guest started asking for more land, more control, and ultimately doesn’t want yo share with you but wants the things you have.
The Jewish people who were brought to Palestine in the 40s were not being exterminated by the Palestinians. The Jewish people illegally collected guns while they were there and forced the Palestinians out of their homes and their country.
If you go a little further back in history you’ll discover some pretty heavy historical claims to the land by the Jewish people. Just to be clear, I consider “historical claim” to be the most bullshit geopolitical argument in existence. I’m merely pointing out the fallacy in claiming Palestinians have claim, but Jews do not. Palestine wasn’t even a country until it was established when Israel was established. It was just a bunch of nomads moving between various borders.
Just curious, if some fascists came to your house citing historical claims to your land, how much would you care about the validity of that claim? How about when they burn your house down, kill your family, and arrest you for objecting? I truly, deeply would not give a flying fuck who lived nearby my house 300 years ago.
Have you asked the Jews that question? You might discover why they keep fighting over the land.
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How much further back is a “little further”? My grandmother was one of the people who fled in 1948. The place her grandparents also lived. You’re talking about what 300 years ago? 400? More? Forgive me if I care very little about a claim to a land that is older than Shakespeare.
I don’t care about a “historical claim” I care about the people who were living in the land and were forcebly ousted in a time frame where the people who were originally ousted are still alive.
Also they were not “nomads” you fuckin racist. My great grandparents had land, a home, a community that were all taken from them.
You’re making an arbitrary claim as though it’s objective. Why is displacement in 1948 justification for historical claim, but expulsion in 1917 not? Beginning 1914 during WW1, many Jews were expelled from Palestine by the Ottoman authorities as enemy nationals, since they had immigrated from countries now at war with the Ottoman Empire. In 1917, the Ottoman authorities carried out the Tel Aviv and Jaffa deportation, expelling the entire Jewish civilian populations of Tel Aviv and Jaffa. Many deportees subsequently died from hunger and disease. Surely those Jews have just as much claim to live in Israel as the Palestinians displaced by the 1947 UN partition plan.
The 1914 deportations were of Russian Jewish people. If any Russians claim they have rights to the land then sure, I’ll buy that, but I don’t care for one’s religion and I don’t believe the Jewish people who were brought to Palestine in the 40s were of Russian descent.
Only 1/3 of the population that was deported in 1917 were Jewish. The rest were Muslims and Christians and had nothing to do with religion. Under British rule all the people deported in 1917 were allowed to return. So they got their claim when they were allowed to return, it really is unfortunate how many died due to the conditions they were sent into, and I’m not defending the actions of any State.
Russians being deported and people who were allowed to return makes those claims barely anything compared to the Palestinians who were ousted multiple times in the last 100 years and not allowed to return, with the ones remaining living in apartheid.
The 1914 deportations were of Russian Jewish people.
This sounds like you’re defending ethnic deportation. It doesn’t matter which passport the Jews held. They were expelled.
Only 1/3 of the population that was deported in 1917 were Jewish.
I am clearly and specifically talking about the Jews, not the Muslims or Christians.
Under British rule all the people deported in 1917 were allowed to return.
But they were not given their land and houses back. They were displaced, just like some Palestinians in 1948.
I’m struggling to believe you could argue the ways the Jews were treated is better. If anything, it was much worse. The Palestinians have never been wholesale deported, only displaced within the same nation.
As a side note, if you want to spot the Press that are at least trying to be neutral, you can see how they refere to the Hamas people that inflitrated Israel:
- The neutral Press will call them something like “guerrilas” (same as, for example, they would refer to the FARC types in Colombia if they attacked a city), “militants” or “infiltrators”.
- The biased Press will call them “terrorists”
They are terrorists. That’s literally what they are. The fact that attacked an evil fascist state’s city doesn’t change that.
I’m happy that everybody who kills people to terrify the rest into doing what they want are consistently called terrorists.
So both Hamas and the Israeli state.
As actual and clear acts of “killing people to terrify the rest do what they want”, like bombing of hospitals, murdering of journalists and killing children throwing stones at the armored bulldozers razing their homes, all commited by one side, have consistently never been described as “terrorism” (even though they match the definition), it’s a pretty good indication of the bias by a media outlet when they now describe the entirety of the military incursion from one side and all its participants as “terrorism” even though they refrained to call actual acts of “killing people to terrify the rest do what they want” from the other side as “acts of terror” and those who executed them as “terrorists”.
The unbiased thing to do is to consistently describe all “attacks meant to incite terror for the purposed of making the rest do what you want” (such as Hamas’ terrorists murdering people at a dance party, and Iraeli Army terrorists bombing hospitals and executing journalists and children) as “terror attacks” and those who executed them as “terrorists”.
Israel can’t be called terrorism because terrorism must be—by definition—unlawful
the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.
Emphasis mine.
As Israel did their deeds outside internationally recognized Israeli territory - so outside the internationally recognized jurisdiction of their courts - hence were Israeli Law does not apply.
So those deeds were unlawful (no matter how much Israeli Law is rigged to say otherwise), and even by that twisted definition you selected of “terrorism” that defines it so that state-sponsered terror attacks on a nation’s own soil do not count as “terrorism”, Israel’s military attacks on civilians anywhere outside the internationally recognized borders of Israel (so including Gaza) for the purpose of intimidating the population are still terrorism because the Law that does apply there says they’re unlawful.
Wars are by definition lawful. Sorry you’re wrong
It’s also not a twisted definition. It’s the literal dictionary definition that all countries use when defining terrorism.
And no, if war time acts were not lawful, all war is terrorism which it isn’t so again you’re wrong.
Sure, there is no such thing as the Geneva Convention and there are no such things as War Crimes and its all above board if the people controlling power in the country doing the deeds tell their parliamentarians to write down that “it’s all legit!” in their own country’s legislation.
I’m sure it’s as straightforward as you make it to be.
It is. You really don’t think so?
It’s not. History never is and it’d be worth understanding how we got to this place.
The Ottoman Land Code of 1858 is a good place to start. Essentially much of Palestine was misappropriated to Ottoman bureaucrats and the Ottoman state. The Jewish National Fund purchased portions of this land and leased it to Jewish settlers who kicked the Arabs out with the cooperation of their Ottoman landlords. Legal, but unjust, and I have to imagine most of the Jewish settlers were as ignorant as the Arabs were to the fact that their land had been sold out from under them.
What if it was a tornado? Do you still fight it to your last standing men or do you accept the fact that you can’t win?
Israel has the iron dome to prevent something like this from happening, right? So why does the attack work this time?
It’s not perfect and especially a huge amount of rockets can overwhelm it. Also it’s much more effective on slower homemade rockets, not the faster kind Iran typically sells Hamas.
the faster kind Iran typically sells Hamas.
… Well, this isn’t going to end well.
Keyword is “typically”. Iran has been sending rockets to Hamas for decades.
And Iran, Iran so far away
OP’s headline isn’t great, the rockets were only one part of todays events
At 6:29am, the Gaza Strip terrorist group launched an incursion into Israeli territory by land, sea and air as well as some 3,000 rockets within hours… …Armed Palestinians managed to overwhelm several Israeli communities and military bases along the border, which have stayed under their control for hours. Dozens of Israeli civilians were believed to be held captive in Kibbutz Be’eri. Israeli forces poured into the conflict zones and engaged the terrorists. Dozens of Israeli captives - including numerous women, children and elders - are believed to have been taken into the Gaza Strip.
ETA: there’s the added factor that it’s Saturday and a religious holiday so more people would have been asleep at home at that time, or on their way to pray/celebrate/party.
Saturation attacks are a common tactic to overwhelm air defense zones, but this isn’t just that. Hamas and IJ fighters have begun ethnically cleansing border towns, literally gunning down shelters full of civilians, as well as parading the naked bodies of women they’ve raped and murdered, through the streets.
This is only a fraction of the attacks, and all on video btw, but I don’t suggest watching them.
Could you source that?
2 minutes on duckduckgo. Plenty of other horrible stories as well.
No, but only because I don’t want to have to look at them again. Go on Twitter, or any combat footage forum/sub, and they’ll be there.
There is no shortage of videos of both slain IDF (It’s war, so that legitimate), and terrorists attacks on civilians. I’m sure there are hundreds more clips uploaded since I stopped looking at the discussions.
I saw one completely out of context today and the person didn’t provide a source even when asked. So I ask you again, can you source these?
I don’t care if you don’t believe me, but if you took even 2 minutes of your own time searching Twitter, Reddit, or Funker, you’d see all of that, and a lot more. I’m good on watching any of those videos ever again.
They’re literally being spammed across all of those feeds, so knock yourself out.
Edit: After looking at your post history, I now understand that you’re afraid of even spending 2 minutes searching for the videos of these specific acts of terrorism/ war crimes: because it would directly conflict with your worldview.
What is Funker?
Edit: yeah, I did DuckDuckGo’d it in both English and Arabic when I first saw it. Accessing Twitter isn’t exactly easy now. The only place I saw it on was reddit with no source. Chances are it was too early before the Telegraph or whoever wrote on it. So, I’m so fucking sorry for asking you to cite yourself when you are on the internet.
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Hmmm, I wanted to ask, when you went through my profile, did you see all those comments about me not agreeing with Hamas, in between all the tech joke comments? Or did you just get a glimpse of me being Palestinian and threw your arms up and were like, of course this terrible person wants a source for this piece of information I claimed, it’s because they hate Israel!
Like seriously, could you describe your process? The video of this woman personally horrified me this morning on Reddit like I said. No source, no one writing about it, long before any news of it hit. I wanted to know who she was and what on earth had happened wrong and why she is there and whether she’s alive or not and how she is involved (or not). I already dislike Hamas, they drag ‘traitors’ around on MCs. They aren’t exactly doing god’s work. So which part of me asking for a source led you to believe I’m somehow okay with this or unable to watch this because it will change my world view. What world view exactly?
I think it’s lame to think that people asking for a source somehow are ready to pound on you and disagree.
These videos are powerful and they can be powerful in the wrong way if used as disinformation and aren’t relative to the current thing at hand. That’s why I asked for a source.
Also listing Hamas’ crimes does not in any way justify Israel’s actions that they take against civilians. Vice versa.
What are IJ fighters? Civilians from which side?
Islamic Jihad. It’s a relatively newer militant faction. All, or most, of the recent IDF military incursions into Gaza lately have been targeting their leadership and fighters.
Because the Iron Dome, like most other products of the US military industrial complex, is more of a profit seeking venture for PMCs than it is a solution to any actual combat problem
Still seems like the first time I’ve heard of this kind of attack causing double digit casualties isn’t it? I’m not super in the loop so I could be wrong.
I think you’re right. In 2021 only 14 died on the Israeli side with a number of Hamas missiles landing inside Gaza by accident (according to Israel). In 2022 Hamas fired about 1k rockets and it caused one Israeli death.
Conflict between Israel and Palestine, color me shocked. Next you’ll tell me China and Taiwan aren’t the best of friends.
In other news . . . water is wet.
badly drawn maps are a major culprit. its clear many commenters are young and don’t know the actual history. i’m a bit surprised by just how many pro-hamas posts ive seen. its a little disturbing. read your history. there is very little that the modern state of Israel could have done to prevent any of this. these extremists want total annihilation of israel. what can israel do against terrorists whose stated goal is to participate in a holy war which they believe is their ticket to heaven? it’s an unwinnable conflict. peace talks only work if all sides actually want peace (and just disagree about how to accomplish it) every insane group of extremists across history has had to be dealt with forcefully, at some point, in some way or another, for all of human history. the japanese, germans, soviets, koreans, all needed to be dealt with, and in all cases it required overwhelming force sustained by wide coalitions over many years.
this is no different. if you are young, don’t know the history, and are sitting in your room thinking there is some special concession Israel could give, that would turn this all around, its time to hit the library. The reality is that there isn’t really any land in the area that would work for that. The available land that is compatible with human civilization in that part of the world, is completely full. There is no “amazon” that could be cut down to build new areas for Palestinians to live. It’s a hot, arid, inhospitable part of the world, and civilization is clustered around natural rivers and mountainous locations. There’s no place for anyone to go.
And then there’s the ideology. Even if Israel and some broad coalition decided to invest trillions in some massive infrastructure project to make Gaza the best place in the world to live, the terrorists would still do exactly what they’re doing today. The point you have to understand, is that Hamas does not care about Palestinians. Repeat that to yourself 10x and commit it to your brain forever. Islamic extremists do not care about achieving peaceful cooperation with people of other faiths and ideologies on planet earth. Nor do they even care about their own people.
People in the west are extremely soft and ignorant in some ways. They’ve grown up immersed in a culture of relative stability, judeo-christian ethics, etc. They have no concept that there are people out there who share none of that. They literally don’t care. And the proof is all over twitter. Go watch, let it soak in.
Only a broad coalition with massive force can end this, just like every other time. otherwise its just on an endless cycle.
Yeah learn your history kids
Great the fake map is making the rounds again
nothing fake about it
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Conflating religion and national belonging like this is pure and vile xenophobia. Thinking all Muslim countries supports Palestine is also staggeringly ignorant.
Yea, think about that for a minute. even most muslim countries don’t want extremist palestinians in their country.
“Those other people are also xenophobes” isn’t the great argument you think it is.
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