And why then it’s a problem that Russia wreaks havoc in Ukraine?..

And I don’t see Western states acting in their best interest anyway. I actually see something between slow surrender to the worst of their competition and some weird kind of “let no one win”, trying to empower the worst savages while simply not working with those of competitors who shouldn’t necessarily be their adversaries. You can also take a look at the people which reach the top in European and US political classes, these are of, eh, declining quality.

Also for my second point - an event in the future still can’t be the cause for an event in the past, justification or not.

Other than that - large parts of NATO \ West “civilization offering”, so to say, were about freedom and human rights.

And large parts of the Soviet alternative were about humanism and equality and unification.

And if it’s casual for you that people were not supposed to believe in any of that in either case, then I don’t get it why people here are so eager to point out Soviet hypocrisies as if they were any different.

It’d be probably also awesome for realpolitik fans to not forget how real world works in terms of errors. Right now an error in your security systems means some protest, some Assange or Snowden, some scandal. Getting into realpolitik too much would shift those errors to justified terrorist acts. Well, I suppose that may be one reason why some countries are so eager to get rid of nuclear energy despite all the green agenda in PR. Single point of failure and all that.

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You did not answer my question.

Did you support the Ukrainians rebelling against their government back in 2013. Or do you only support a side if that side happens to oppose the US?

The only thing your position is really advocating is the useless deaths of vast numbers of Ukrainians (and Russians, for that matter). [emphasis mine]

They never admit it, but the fact that Russian deaths will continue is one of if not the main reason these NATO dronies are fine with sacrificing the lives of all those Ukrainians they pretend to care about. Spoiler warning: they don’t actually care about Ukrainians. But they’ll still couch it in terms as if they’re “supporting Ukraine.” Such “Ukraine supporters” are either completely, pathetically fooled by obvious NATO propaganda or they are just bloodthirsty bigots (or both, which is most often the case).

The mere fact that they are in the act of a counter offensive after Russia tried to blitz then shows that it’s not even close to what you’re describing.

Ukraine is holding their current territory pretty easily and gaining the upper hand very clearly.

Exactly this.

Revolutionary defeatism is the name of the word. Those who should be concerned with Russian imperialism must be russian working class people.

We in the west have to fight against our own imperalists. It’s very simple and in the end very logical.

The Russian anti-war activists are clearly holding up their end of the bargain. Why are you not holding up yours?

Ah! To be young and naive enough to believe that the anti-war activists in Russia have any leverage. They will all end up in Siberia or jumping out of a window.

Any regime change in Russia will come from the oligarchs, and the Russian working class will still be in a bad position (if not worse).

Encirclement by what? Countries that don’t like to suck off Russia anymore?

Maybe Russia should act less like an authoritarian mafia state and then its neighbours wouln’t turn away from it. Food for thought

Ukraine is not encircling Russia at all.

Tankies have a hard time understanding sarcasm, I guess.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/mar/18/how-ukraine-kidnapped-children-led-to-vladimir-putins-arrest-warrant-russia

We meet just a few days before the international criminal court issued warrants for the arrest of Russian president Vladimir Putin and Maria Lvova-Belova, his commissioner for children’s rights, for directly supervising the atrocity of kidnapping Ukrainian children for “adoption” and “re-education” in Russia.

I mean it’s a pretty well known enough to trigger an international arrest warrant.

I’ve seen nothing akin to the indigenous boarding schools ran by the U.S. and Canada in actual campaigns to destroy a people’s collective identity.

Classic hexbear whataboutism response. Like I’m going to sit here and defend the horrendous crimes that happened in those boarding schools. Both things are wrong. You can be critical of Russia my man, you don’t need to defend it so aggressively.

No the real answer is these people somehow think their constant egging on escalation instead of some sort of diplomatic resolution, won’t eventually lead inevitably to the war escaping its proxy status and evolve into a REAL inter-imperialist direct confrontation with all of what it implies (it implies nukes)

If Ukraine wants to remain a sovereign nation and retain its land, then what alternative does it have? I don’t think any nation in their right mind would happily let an invader just attack without putting up a defence.

Russia themselves threw millions of men into the meat grinder to defeat the Nazis and so did the allies. So did the north Vietnamese against the US. It’s tragic, but it’s it’s unfortunately the reality when there’s bad actors that invade other nations.

The joke is that what you want has been done already when Russia invaded the Krim.

How dumb do you have to be to think that Russia would not do the same shit again soon if Ukraine decides to do nothing?

You were happy enough to let Ukraine commit genocide until an ‘aggressor’ stopped it

No? Let’s not forget that Russia massively exaggerated the numbers this, whilst simultaneously also committing atrocities themselves, and then severely ramped it up in the invasion. It hasn’t stopped, it’s got significantly worse.

Why don’t you go to Putin and ask him to pull out of Ukraine? Or go protest the war in Russia and build momentum to get the population to protest?

Go die with the rest of your nazi comrades.

Of course, you see all Ukrainians as Nazis. Explains why you’re so eager for Ukraine to roll over so Russia can come in take over the country and eradicate Ukraine and it’s culture.

That’s all lies again too, man, but this time russia is arresting or killing anyone who dares to tell the truth.

I did not appeal to morality, I stated the fact that the decision to helping the rebels in Lybia took into account every regional player given what we knew at the time. And even in that case it was counterproductive in hindsight.

Following international law is not about morality, it’s about being able to vaguely know what you can count on and possible consequences when you perform a military calculation or a geopolitical move.

If everyone just takes what they can get away with regardless of others’ interests, the future will just be a series of Iraq and Ukraine wars all over the world, particularly in Africa, Europe and Asia.

Yea, in hindsight it would have been better to just let him crack down on the population to keep stability in the region, but with the information we had at the time, most African and Arab neighbours agreed that helping the rebels with a no-fly zond would be better than not to, since the civil war was going to start anyway. You don’t care about legality, but that is not the point. The point is that this was not unilateral, like Iraq, and even then military interventions can go terribly wrong.

They’re defending the imperialistic warmongering Russian state who are shelling and bombing civilians and who are literally creating the bloodbath.

I’m not the one that needs to log off. But go ahead and keep shilling for Russia.