One issue here is that “Geschlechter” was translated as “genders” in the headline, while the word can also be translated as “sexes”, which does make a big difference. I’m not sure though what relevance the existence of two biological sexes has for those fans.
There are quite a few people who argue for sex as a spectrum. Which doesn’t make biological sense and is neither helpful for intersex people nor for transgender people.
The person you’re replying to is wrong, translating the word as gender makes the most sense here. That said, sex isn’t strictly binary ~1.5% of people are intersex, which means when they’re born, they don’t fit the typical definition of male or female.
In my experience, the conservative side of it tends to be reductive like that, trans advocacy has been getting better at including intersex advocacy as well because the two groups have overlapping needs. I mostly mentioned it because it was interesting and relevent though.
Again, this is all well and good, it just fails to grasp the discourse and tries to establish a topic the other side has no interest in. Its literally miscomunication.
I’m just sick of all the people talking past each other hoping that if they do it long enough the other side will come back to the debate on their turf which never happens.
Those are literally abberations and detract from the actual discussions. Nobody cares about those edge cases, discussions only go there if there is a “but actually…” thing going on
But its literally the same as if someone asks „how many fingers are on a human hand?“, the answer being 5 and you going „actually the answer is 0-10“ because some people with deformations got born with more or less fingers than usual.
The problem isnt uninformed people, the thing is most people are more than aware about these things but are just able to see whats the point of the discussion and dont want to derail it.
FYI, most medical literature will refer to intersex genotypes as male or female still with the presence of the Y chromosome generally defining the sex. For instance if you look up XXY on Wikipedia or similar, it will usually say “XXY male”. On crossover events, it’s still characterized as male and female but usually as “XX male” and “XY female”
I think they were asking because /u/ViciousNakedMoleRat literally said “one issue here is that […]”.
You are right. There is no issue. So I don’t quite know why the existence of the other translation needed any pointing out since I doubt these people meant to make and display a purely medical banner.
I mean here in Sweden I don’t see it too much outside of rural areas. It definitely exists but the status quo is generally fine with it as far as I’ve noticed first hand. I’m not trans though so I’m probably not a reliable authority on the subject.
Can confirm that it’s mostly regional. Having spent 15 years in northern Germany, all I ever heard on the topic was something like ‘just let people do what they want’.
Although, and this might be relevant, none of the people I’ve been in contact with are religious or anything of the sort.
How is this specifically transphobic? I understand that this is against non-binary people, but don’t trans people want to change from one sex to the other, staying in the original binary selection?
These right-wing football fans aren’t waving this banner to start a gentle discussion about the differences between sex and gender. They’re doing it to be provocative and whip up hate against all trans people (including trans men, women and non binary people). It’s a shorthand for basically saying trans people are making it all up, designed to laugh at and try and humiliate trans people, which makes it transphobic / hateful in its sentiment. Intentions matter.
Meh. Nowadays if you don’t want a mtf athlete competing with biological women or children taking life altering hormones at 12 some coward bully will want to justify bashing your head in because they call you “transphobe”.
We gotta stop with the word and actually talk about the issues without threats every 5 seconds. Not that Reddit is the place for that since it’s circlejerk-land where anyone who disagrees is a nazi, but you get the point.
One issue here is that “Geschlechter” was translated as “genders” in the headline, while the word can also be translated as “sexes”, which does make a big difference. I’m not sure though what relevance the existence of two biological sexes has for those fans.
But even hardcore gender social constructivists don’t argue for more than 2 sexes? Or have I misread the literature?
There are quite a few people who argue for sex as a spectrum. Which doesn’t make biological sense and is neither helpful for intersex people nor for transgender people.
I don’t know what a “gender social constructivist” is, but I do know that from a medical standpoint there are more than two biological sexes.
The person you’re replying to is wrong, translating the word as gender makes the most sense here. That said, sex isn’t strictly binary ~1.5% of people are intersex, which means when they’re born, they don’t fit the typical definition of male or female.
Why does it make the most sense? The word Geschlecht can mean both sex and gender.
1.5% of people are not intersex. It’s closer to about 0.02%
I got my numbers from Amnesty International.
It’s a common figure that you will often see but it’s wrong.
It’s based on an academic paper that included a large range of non-intersex conditions that affect phenotype.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12476264/
Actual chromosomal difference (which is what intersex refers to) is about 0.02%.
that means 98.5% of all people have either xx or xy karyotypes, right?
The discussion always hinges upon disagreements what to do with those 98.5%. Not about what are those 1.5%.
Thats what I mean.
In my experience, the conservative side of it tends to be reductive like that, trans advocacy has been getting better at including intersex advocacy as well because the two groups have overlapping needs. I mostly mentioned it because it was interesting and relevent though.
Again, this is all well and good, it just fails to grasp the discourse and tries to establish a topic the other side has no interest in. Its literally miscomunication.
I’m just sick of all the people talking past each other hoping that if they do it long enough the other side will come back to the debate on their turf which never happens.
Why do people do that?
Alright, lay it out for me. What am I debating against then? I will try to give a nice thorough answer.
There are definitely more than 2 sexes. There are XX, XY, XXY, and XYY.
Those are literally abberations and detract from the actual discussions. Nobody cares about those edge cases, discussions only go there if there is a “but actually…” thing going on
like you just did
No one cares, except for all the people who do.
Maybe the problem is that people don’t care and make uninformed statements?
But its literally the same as if someone asks „how many fingers are on a human hand?“, the answer being 5 and you going „actually the answer is 0-10“ because some people with deformations got born with more or less fingers than usual.
The problem isnt uninformed people, the thing is most people are more than aware about these things but are just able to see whats the point of the discussion and dont want to derail it.
The difference there is that no one discriminates or denies the existence of people with more or less than 10 fingers.
FYI, most medical literature will refer to intersex genotypes as male or female still with the presence of the Y chromosome generally defining the sex. For instance if you look up XXY on Wikipedia or similar, it will usually say “XXY male”. On crossover events, it’s still characterized as male and female but usually as “XX male” and “XY female”
Unless you consider intersex the third sex.
The same relevance it has for everyone saying there are only two genders: It’s part of their culture war.
Where’s the issue? From the context it’s very clear they meant gender and not sex
There is no issue. It’s very clear that they meant gender and not sex.
I think they were asking because /u/ViciousNakedMoleRat literally said “one issue here is that […]”.
You are right. There is no issue. So I don’t quite know why the existence of the other translation needed any pointing out since I doubt these people meant to make and display a purely medical banner.
Football has always had a political side. Those fans showed their political colors I guess
I have a lot of German friends, and it seems really regional but a lot of the country is extremely transphobic.
Realistically, is there a country that isn’t? Maybe Thailand.
I mean here in Sweden I don’t see it too much outside of rural areas. It definitely exists but the status quo is generally fine with it as far as I’ve noticed first hand. I’m not trans though so I’m probably not a reliable authority on the subject.
Most of the world is transphobic
Can confirm that it’s mostly regional. Having spent 15 years in northern Germany, all I ever heard on the topic was something like ‘just let people do what they want’.
Although, and this might be relevant, none of the people I’ve been in contact with are religious or anything of the sort.
How is this specifically transphobic? I understand that this is against non-binary people, but don’t trans people want to change from one sex to the other, staying in the original binary selection?
These right-wing football fans aren’t waving this banner to start a gentle discussion about the differences between sex and gender. They’re doing it to be provocative and whip up hate against all trans people (including trans men, women and non binary people). It’s a shorthand for basically saying trans people are making it all up, designed to laugh at and try and humiliate trans people, which makes it transphobic / hateful in its sentiment. Intentions matter.
Which is insane because one of the first book burning was targeted towards a sex institute. First they came for the trans kids…
Meh. Nowadays if you don’t want a mtf athlete competing with biological women or children taking life altering hormones at 12 some coward bully will want to justify bashing your head in because they call you “transphobe”.
We gotta stop with the word and actually talk about the issues without threats every 5 seconds. Not that Reddit is the place for that since it’s circlejerk-land where anyone who disagrees is a nazi, but you get the point.