- cross-posted to:
- news@lemmy.world
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The issue with letting the community have a free for all to come decide what a 13 year old should be reading is that these are the people who show up to such meetings of the mind. Pic from the article, which some of you haven’t read. I don’t think busybody boomers on a (usually faith based) moral purity mission should be the ones curating the selection in a public library, period.
I think when I was young (in the 80s/90s), if you were under 12 you had to have an adult with you to check out books from the teen and adult section of the public library (though I think parents could give blanket permission that was noted by the library which I’m pretty sure is what my mom did). After 12, you had freedom to borrow whatever you wanted without questions from the librarians. I’m sure some of them might have checked with you if there was something super violent or explicit in your pile though but you know, that’s not that common. They’re not brainless professional who care nothing about their patrons. They often care a whole lot.
To answer the question, librarians and library professionals decide what is shelved in the PUBLIC library. If a book is not borrowed, it gets taken out as it is not serving the community. If one is borrowed a lot, it stays. Just because SOME people might think children or other groups can’t have access to certain books, that doesn’t mean the library has to obey. It’s there to serve the whole community and unfortunately for some of these people you just do not get to control what other people and their children do or read. Why do others have to go without because you can’t be fucked to check in with your child on their reading choices (I maintain that for the most part, parents should not do that anyway). The community does not have to bend to your fears of your son perhaps reading about gay dudes without your consent. Your bigotry or religious beliefs or values etc do not take precedence over others’
The parent who’s with them. If you’re worried about what your kid’s reading then just check their books before they check out.
And the idiot saga of book bans continues, because some fundamentalist dingbats can’t be arsed to parent their own goddamn children, but instead want the “liberty” to inflict their medieval morals on everybody else.
Apparently stupid people that cannot read.
Where are the petitions to get librarians to ignore the anti-book petitions? I just want my kid to be able to read as much as possible. And, myself.
It’s actually very simple
If you don’t like it
Don’t rent it
There wasn’t this much attention over age appropriate video games decades ago.
What fascist movement is behind this?
I don’t let my kids have library cards, problem solved!! /s/
I hate this book banning shit, it always goes too far. If you want to homeschool your kid into ignorance that’s on you, leave the rest of us alone.
“They’ve told us here that ‘Oh no, you can’t have parents involved. You must have experts choosing books for the children,’” Harrison says. “That makes no sense. Parents are the primary stakeholders for children.”
-— I love comments like these. I would bet any amount of money that at no point did a librarian or educator say “Oh no, you can’t have parents involved.” When I was a teacher, I would’ve given anything to have more parents involved.
I think about the parents running around and going to random libraries and board of education meetings in towns they don’t live in… there’s no way they are actually parenting their own kids well, right?
“Sorry honey, I can’t put you to bed again tonight. I have to drive three counties over to protest a book.”
The mental gymnastics to justify this must be wild. “But I’m doing this to benefit you!” while their kid is wondering why mom is so wound up over nothing.
And parents already have a part in the process, with their kids. It’s amazing how these people will completely ignore any responsibility as parents to monitor their kids’ reading and will try to dump it all on others to parent for them.
I remember hitting puberty and looking for books about topless tribes in Africa and for some ocean explorer dude Jacques Cousteau had topless chicks in his books.
I am against book banning bu6 I don’t want a 10 year old access to a ton of damaging content.
The internet is bad enough, this is a hard nut to Crack but worthy of conversation.
The question is what constitutes “damaging content”?
Whether it gets said or not, the vast majority of the time people talking about “age appropriateness” in books are against books that include critical discussion of racism/slavery/homophobia/transphobia/misogyny, or take an inclusive perspective on gender identity, unorthodox gender presentation, non-heterosexual sexuality, non-heterosexual families, and women’s rights.
That is the question there are absolutely vile things that have been put into print.
this is a hard nut to Crack but worthy of conversation.
No, it really isn’t. There’s quite a simple solution that has been known for centuries.
Be an actual parent to your children.
You don’t want your kid reading a book? Fine; don’t let them. Don’t force your bullshit on others.
Ahh yes the common refrain blame the parents.
Man this argument gets so old it’s always the parents fault like parents are some omnipotent omniscient force able to curate a child’s life like clipping a bonsai.
Ahh yes the common refrain blame the parents.
No; it’s not blame. It’s expecting parents to be parents. If you’re not responsible enough to monitor what your kids are reading/watching, then you’re not responsible enough to be a parent.
Man this argument gets so old it’s always the parents fault like parents are some omnipotent omniscient force able to curate a child’s life like clipping a bonsai.
It’s not difficult to keep an eye on what your child is reading. You’re running them back and forth to the library already; take 5 fucking seconds and look at what they’re choosing.
But heaven forbid a parent actually be a parent and show any interest in their childs lives.
The librarians are responsible for curating books and assigning them to the appropriate sections. That said librarians are human and mistakes can happen, if you believe a book is inappropriately categorized speak to a librarian about it (in a respectful manner please) and they will reevaluate the book.
However, while a certain book may generally be appropriate for a certain age range, not every book is appropriate for every reader. While the librarians can offer guidelines, in the end it is the parents responsibility to ensure their child is only checking out materials appropriate for them. This duty cannot be off loaded onto the librarians.
And what then should parents do if they think librarians haven’t been doing a good enough job? Convince them all one by one until the librarians all agree with the parents? Or simply pass a law making sure the librarians follow the guidelines the majority has agreed upon?
Then you can present your case to the Library Board of Directors, a group of local civilians appointed by the local government to oversee the library and it’s operations, at one of their regularly scheduled public meetings.
Present your case and if they board believes that there may be validity to your case they will launch an investigation. If the investigation finds that the librarians are not properly following the library’s collection polices, the librarians responsible will be reprimanded, or in extreme or repeat cases they can recommend the local government fire the offending librarian. Or if they find the librarians were following the library’s collection policy correctly, but the policy is flawed then the board can rewrite the appropriate sections of the policy.
It is unfathomable that there is ever an actual case where this is appropriate. Unless the librarian is putting Madonna’s “Sex” in the children’s section nobody’s idiosyncrasies should rule the day. Those parents who have that inclination should reassess or at the least just focus on sheltering their own children rather than rabble-rousing
I agree, but the procedure is in place and they have a right to access it.
I’m the Library Director at my library, and if after talking to me about their issue they are still unhappy and want to take their complaint to the next level, I tell them the time and date of the next Board meeting and tell them that I will make sure they are on the agenda.
I’ve only had 1 person actually show up to the meeting. And in that case the Board determined that we had followed the library collection policy accurately, that the policy was sound, and that no further action would be taken. (It was Harry Potter btw, way back in the “These books promote witchcraft” days).
But honestly the vast majority of the time I’m able to resolve the issue just by talking to them. Most people just want to be heard and validated so telling them they we will be reevaluating the book, and if appropriate we will relabel it and move it to a more appropriate location is enough to put an end to it.
Just stay away from the library snowflake. Things sure are scary out there for you far right conservatives.
Wouldn’t this entire discussion be negated if the parents actually took an interest in raising their child and asked them about what books they are reading rather than expecting librarians to police children’s reading habits? Librarians categorise books according to genres and categories, and obviously the ‘kid’s corner’ or what the equivalent name is in the library will be the children’s section with the books aimed at children. Librarians provide the books, but they can’t be expected to know your specific child’s reading habits or whether a book is good for them or not. This really comes down to parents both being too controlling and also too uninvolved in their child’s lives. They want librarians to police their reading habits, but then also bemoan the fact they don’t know what their little Timmy will read because they can’t be bothered to ask.
You are responsible for what your child has access to, whether that is junk food, the internet, books, toys, what have you. The librarians are catering to the requests and needs of every part of their community. If you believe a mistake has been made in curation or cataloging (it happens,large libraries intake thousands of titles each year) then go through the appropriate channels.
And what then should parents do if they think librarians haven’t been doing a good enough job?
maintain better control over their kids instead of trying to trash a public resource??
The public managing a public resource in the way they see fit is not trashing it. That’s how it’s supposed to work.
I’m confused, because in a majority of your comments it sounds like you read “parents pushing government to dictate what books are allowed in libraries” and translate it into “the public managing a public resource.” The assumption it sounds like your making is that those parents represent the interests of the public at large. That’s a shaky assumption at the best of times; you have to realize that a vocal minority like that isn’t just trying to manage the public resource for themselves, but also to manage it for everyone else, determining what the rest of the public has access to. So it’s more than likely the rest of the public ain’t really cool with that, which is why a lot of people here are telling them to piss off. If you’re advocating for the public to manage its own resources, then you can’t just blot out sections of the public you don’t like.
Censorship of all families’ choices because you are too inept to manage your own child is not actually how “it” is supposed to work
Learn how to parent instead of expecting the library to do it for you. If you don’t like the library’s recommendations, do a better job helping your child pick books. It doesn’t need a drastic overhaul because you personally didn’t like their book choices.
If we’re talking about a public library, they should find the form to reconsider having the book in the library. They typically ask why you think it should be removed, other materials that would be more appropriate, etc.
In the public libraries I know, that goes to their admin department to be re-evaluated. In mine, it’s done by the director and head librarian. It’s not a majority vote by all the librarians, and the librarian who purchased it doesn’t have the final say. All public libraries have a reconsideration policy/collection guidelines. If they review it and find that the book violates those, they’ll get rid of it.
There are ways to appeal their decision as well.
The local libraries should reflect those standards and abide by them.
Most libraries have it written in their policy that one of the factors they should consider when curating books is where they are appropriate for the community they serve. And they have procedures in place for challenging material that individuals find to be inappropriate.
However most communities are more diverse than many individual people realize and just because the book isn’t appropriate for them doesn’t mean that it isn’t serving others in their community.
At my library I once had someone complain that 50 Shades of Grey wasn’t appropriate for our library because we have such a large senior community. But to be honest, 80% of the series’ checkouts were by the very little old ladies that patron was concerned about.
Honestly if book is getting decent circulation it is probably a better fit for the community than people want to admit. And if it is not a good fit for the community it sits on the shelf collecting dust until it gets weeded out for lack of circulation.
How is an ignorant or illiterate parent going to " ensure their child is only checking out materials appropriate for them." Isn’t a librarian more qualified to know than a parent that is statistically unlikely to be educated enough to make a reasoned decision?
We librarians are more than happy to help you make the right selection but we can’t make the choice for you. You can ask us what the book is about whether it contains certain types of content. We can also point you to resources that may help you make your decision. In fact if we suspect you might be making a wildly mistaken choice we might even take a moment to verify that you are making an informed decision.
What you can’t do is drop your kid off at the library for an hour and expect us to police what they read or check out on your behalf.
I’ve had parents not allow their 17 year old to check out Harry Potter because it will teach them witchcraft, while allowing their kids to read Twilight because it promoted abstinence. I’ve also seen parents let 2nd graders check out Attack on Titan (a Japanese comic where giant naked Ken dolls are going around eating people, and yes they knew what it was about), while forbidding the same kid from checking out a book with aliens in it because it went against the teachings of the bible. I once was once on the receiving end of an angry rant by a parent for letting their kid check out a Junie B. Jones book (a popular and award winning book series written for early grade schoolers) because the main character talked back to her parents.
There is no way I can know what each individual thinks is appropriate for their child. However I will do my best to help you make an informed decision for yourself.
Librarians might know books better but usually don’t know the child’s personality, reading level, fears, interests, upbringing… So as a parent, if you have any doubt, talk to the librarian.
Moms for Liberty and conservative busybodies, that’s who! /s
Well, I just added another book to my TBR. My grandma was the librarian when I was a kid. By age 12, I’d left the kid books in the dust. At that point, I’d read every Dean Koontz and John Saul book in the place. I’d tackled some of Robin Cook’s stuff and was making my way through Stuart Woods. The one and only time my grandmother ever came close to censoring what I read was in high school when I checked out Flowers in the Attic because everyone in school was talking about it. She didn’t bat and eye when I brought it up and checked it out to me. She couldn’t quite hold back the little mutter under her breath though. She said, “That woman is one sick puppy.” She let me have the book though and a couple more in the series afterward. Her little grumble was enough to clue me in that the relationships in the book were not normal which was all I needed to read the book in the right mindset.
Parents should have an idea what their kids are reading and be willing to talk about anything their kid comes to them with. If there’s something in a book that the parent thinks the kid needs some front loading on, they should do so in as brief a way as possible. There are very few books that should actually be denied to kids and those should just be a not yet rather than never.
I laughed aloud at her muttered comment. Just the right amount of inflection. Good.
I mean, she wasn’t wrong either.
