You’ve really jumped deep into things by assuming what the person you’re responding to means isn’t scientific fact is the actual existence of trans people. They could, but they were woefully vague.
Most people I’ve interacted with who have misgivings are more focused on things like the insistence that there are no differences between afab and amab bodies, and therefore trans women athletes should be allowed to compete against afab athletes.
That’s a currently “unallowed to challenge” topic that pretty much immediately gets you labelled transphobic, but here’s the rub: female athletes doping with testosterone to achieve higher muscle mass is something that is banned from sports competitions, so why does it matter whether it was artificially obtained via pill or naturally by the fact that they had years of body and muscle development as male before transistioning?
There’s no good solution to this problem, but the fact that anyone who brings it up gets labelled as transphobic is ridiculous. It’s not inherently denying trans people anything to discuss it (that has more to do with the person discussing it than the topic itself). For me it’s an attempt to ensure that all female athletes afab trans or other are on an even playing field, ideally so people have less excuse to easily dismiss trans athlete achievements.
No one denies trans people exist, but this is how the “progressives” that want males competing with females in sport and using female-only services frame any and all questioning of their ideology and motives.
The current gender/trans ideology isn’t just scientific fact that has to be followed and believed.
I know no person interested in trans liberation that also talks about “gender/trans ideology.”
I find sports misgivings a red herring with regards to trans liberation. To me, it feels like asking someone to be less racist, and hearing them respond “well what about Black people in sports? What about white athletes’ feelings? How do we determine if an athlete is white enough to compete against other whites?” The entire notion is wrong-headed to begin with. Yes, if we include trans people in sports, sometimes they might win. What’s so bad about trans people winning at sports?
In any case, clearly the person I was responding to was not talking about this.
Here is the thing when it comes to sports, there are usually two main divisions in most sports, the best of the best league, and the women league. In most sports there is technically no rule against women playing in the best of the best leagues, but they are just at so much of a disadvantage it is almost unheard of for them to be able to compete at that level. The only reason that women only sports exist is to allow people with that biological disadvantage to compete professionally against others with the same disadvantage. It’s a league that’s sole purpose is to allow women to be competitive against other women because the men are just so much better.
It might sound like I’m bashing women’s sports, but I’m not. I’m glad women have an avenue to compete at pro levels, because without women only sports they would not.
I have no problem with anybody trying to compete in the best of the best league, men, women, trans, black, white, etc. But when it comes to leagues specifically limited to give those in the league a fair competition, we shouldn’t be opening that up to those who don’t have the disadvantage that defines the league. This applies to women leagues, the special Olympics, and other limited leagues.
The NFL isn’t a male league for example - it’s an open league. How many women have ever even made it to the tryout stage? One. A kicker. She didn’t come close to making even a training squad.
Sam Kerr, the best women’s soccer player on earth, wouldn’t even get close to making a men’s pro team. The world beating women’s USA team, winners of the past 2 world cups, got annihilated by an under 15s boys team.
I know this, I just don’t think it matters. Our a priori assumption must be trans people should be included everywhere as much as possible, just like Black people or Jewish people. Fairness will adjust to our expectations, so everything will feel fine in the end, just as it did when we allowed other minorities to compete in leagues they were formerly barred from.
How can it not matter? You have a sport built around the idea of fair competition to a genetic physical weakness, and you think we should just throw that all away? I’m not sure why you are bringing race and nationality into this discussion, that’s never been a race based disadvantage that we decided we needed to design sports around.
Our a priori assumption must be trans people should be included everywhere as much as possible,
I agree, but I think sports falls under “not possible” because they don’t meet the requirements for the women’s league. I have no problem with a trans league, or they are more than welcome to compete in the best of the best league. I don’t think they should be competing in women’s sports, it’s unfair to all biological women athletes who compete against other biological women athletes.
And if you want to compare it to race, where the idea of a race segregated sport would be super controversial, let’s just get rid of women’s sports all together. Women are equal to men, right? They can do anything a man can do, right? What are we pretending women aren’t equal by putting them in their own sports leagues? Let’s just get rid of all women’s sports, let them compete directly with the men, and may the best win.
The issue isn’t just that they might win, it’s that they will naturally dominate in competitions where biological makeup matters.
If you don’t see how that’s not fair I don’t know what to tell you. There are hard rules in biology that don’t mesh with gender identity politics, and there’s no way around that.
Lots of people were worried about Black people dominating certain sports. And, as it turns out, Black people do dominate certain sports. Is that unfair to white people?
No. People are just different. Fairness adjusts and we get over it.
How do biological women adapt to someone like Lia Thomas? Are they just going to magically all just grow another foot in height and increase their bone density and muscle mass to levels that women can’t naturally get?
You’re right, it’s not vague at all - it’s not denying trans people exist in any way. Trans people existing isn’t an ideology, so questioning the current trans and gender ideology has nothing to do with trans people existing or not. You’re jumping to conclusions because you want to dismiss any opinion you don’t agree with, and currently the “that’s transphobic!” line is basically a get out of jail free card in that way. Just call someone transphobic and get them banned so you don’t have to have your opinion challenged, create that echo chamber you want so badly.
Your response to the sports issue of “what’s so wrong with trans women winning women’s sporting events” says it all. “Who cares about biological women, the feelings of trans women matter more.”
Trans women can compete with men. If there is no physical or biological advantage for males then why do they need to compete with the women? They can compete with the men and should do just fine.
Lia Thomas is all that needs to be pointed out for why your ideology here is wrong. 500+ ranked man……instantly #1 ranked woman. Breaks all the women’s records. Where are the trans men swimmers dominating the men’s division in swimming? Or in track and field? Cycling? Anywhere at all?!
You’ve really jumped deep into things by assuming what the person you’re responding to means isn’t scientific fact is the actual existence of trans people. They could, but they were woefully vague.
Most people I’ve interacted with who have misgivings are more focused on things like the insistence that there are no differences between afab and amab bodies, and therefore trans women athletes should be allowed to compete against afab athletes.
That’s a currently “unallowed to challenge” topic that pretty much immediately gets you labelled transphobic, but here’s the rub: female athletes doping with testosterone to achieve higher muscle mass is something that is banned from sports competitions, so why does it matter whether it was artificially obtained via pill or naturally by the fact that they had years of body and muscle development as male before transistioning?
There’s no good solution to this problem, but the fact that anyone who brings it up gets labelled as transphobic is ridiculous. It’s not inherently denying trans people anything to discuss it (that has more to do with the person discussing it than the topic itself). For me it’s an attempt to ensure that all female athletes afab trans or other are on an even playing field, ideally so people have less excuse to easily dismiss trans athlete achievements.
Bingo.
No one denies trans people exist, but this is how the “progressives” that want males competing with females in sport and using female-only services frame any and all questioning of their ideology and motives.
I don’t think this is vague in the slightest:
I know no person interested in trans liberation that also talks about “gender/trans ideology.”
I find sports misgivings a red herring with regards to trans liberation. To me, it feels like asking someone to be less racist, and hearing them respond “well what about Black people in sports? What about white athletes’ feelings? How do we determine if an athlete is white enough to compete against other whites?” The entire notion is wrong-headed to begin with. Yes, if we include trans people in sports, sometimes they might win. What’s so bad about trans people winning at sports?
In any case, clearly the person I was responding to was not talking about this.
Here is the thing when it comes to sports, there are usually two main divisions in most sports, the best of the best league, and the women league. In most sports there is technically no rule against women playing in the best of the best leagues, but they are just at so much of a disadvantage it is almost unheard of for them to be able to compete at that level. The only reason that women only sports exist is to allow people with that biological disadvantage to compete professionally against others with the same disadvantage. It’s a league that’s sole purpose is to allow women to be competitive against other women because the men are just so much better.
It might sound like I’m bashing women’s sports, but I’m not. I’m glad women have an avenue to compete at pro levels, because without women only sports they would not.
I have no problem with anybody trying to compete in the best of the best league, men, women, trans, black, white, etc. But when it comes to leagues specifically limited to give those in the league a fair competition, we shouldn’t be opening that up to those who don’t have the disadvantage that defines the league. This applies to women leagues, the special Olympics, and other limited leagues.
Exactly.
The NFL isn’t a male league for example - it’s an open league. How many women have ever even made it to the tryout stage? One. A kicker. She didn’t come close to making even a training squad.
Sam Kerr, the best women’s soccer player on earth, wouldn’t even get close to making a men’s pro team. The world beating women’s USA team, winners of the past 2 world cups, got annihilated by an under 15s boys team.
Sex matters in sport, not gender.
I know this, I just don’t think it matters. Our a priori assumption must be trans people should be included everywhere as much as possible, just like Black people or Jewish people. Fairness will adjust to our expectations, so everything will feel fine in the end, just as it did when we allowed other minorities to compete in leagues they were formerly barred from.
How can it not matter? You have a sport built around the idea of fair competition to a genetic physical weakness, and you think we should just throw that all away? I’m not sure why you are bringing race and nationality into this discussion, that’s never been a race based disadvantage that we decided we needed to design sports around.
I agree, but I think sports falls under “not possible” because they don’t meet the requirements for the women’s league. I have no problem with a trans league, or they are more than welcome to compete in the best of the best league. I don’t think they should be competing in women’s sports, it’s unfair to all biological women athletes who compete against other biological women athletes.
And if you want to compare it to race, where the idea of a race segregated sport would be super controversial, let’s just get rid of women’s sports all together. Women are equal to men, right? They can do anything a man can do, right? What are we pretending women aren’t equal by putting them in their own sports leagues? Let’s just get rid of all women’s sports, let them compete directly with the men, and may the best win.
The issue isn’t just that they might win, it’s that they will naturally dominate in competitions where biological makeup matters.
If you don’t see how that’s not fair I don’t know what to tell you. There are hard rules in biology that don’t mesh with gender identity politics, and there’s no way around that.
Fair to whom?
Lots of people were worried about Black people dominating certain sports. And, as it turns out, Black people do dominate certain sports. Is that unfair to white people?
No. People are just different. Fairness adjusts and we get over it.
So too here.
How do biological women adapt to someone like Lia Thomas? Are they just going to magically all just grow another foot in height and increase their bone density and muscle mass to levels that women can’t naturally get?
You’re right, it’s not vague at all - it’s not denying trans people exist in any way. Trans people existing isn’t an ideology, so questioning the current trans and gender ideology has nothing to do with trans people existing or not. You’re jumping to conclusions because you want to dismiss any opinion you don’t agree with, and currently the “that’s transphobic!” line is basically a get out of jail free card in that way. Just call someone transphobic and get them banned so you don’t have to have your opinion challenged, create that echo chamber you want so badly.
Your response to the sports issue of “what’s so wrong with trans women winning women’s sporting events” says it all. “Who cares about biological women, the feelings of trans women matter more.”
Trans women can compete with men. If there is no physical or biological advantage for males then why do they need to compete with the women? They can compete with the men and should do just fine.
Lia Thomas is all that needs to be pointed out for why your ideology here is wrong. 500+ ranked man……instantly #1 ranked woman. Breaks all the women’s records. Where are the trans men swimmers dominating the men’s division in swimming? Or in track and field? Cycling? Anywhere at all?!