Most of Africa’s nations are younger than 30 years. Several African countries still pay taxes to France. Nearly every African country doesn’t have sovereign control over their natural resources. So Ya, not to even mention the millions of people stolen from their countries. Africa is poor purely because of outside influences
The other side of that debate is that … the outside influence could work with Africa to make the continent self sufficient and capable on its own. Several studies and research has shown that if properly set up and organized, the African continent has more than enough resources to produce its own food supply, clean water supply and energy production.
Unfortunately, instead of the outside world helping Africa to get to this point … the world instead uses Africa as just another place to exploit and make money out of. In the short sighted vision of the first world … it’s more lucrative to make a bunch of money now by taking advantage of poor dying people than it is to help them become productive members of the global economy.
It’s a prime example of how as a civilization we build and maintain our world on exploitation, coercion and death
Unfortunately, instead of the outside world helping Africa to get to this point … the world instead uses Africa as just another place to exploit and make money out of. In the short sighted vision of the first world … it’s more lucrative to make a bunch of money now by taking advantage of poor dying people than it is to help them become productive members of the global economy.
I would argue it’s more complex than that. The very conditions created by European colonization have resulted in extreme instability and corruption in the resulting, mostly-arbitrarily drawn states, which heavily discourages investment from rational (though amoral) actors. It’s not that the rest of the world market doesn’t want Africa to be more “Developing Southeast Asia” than “Place we get raw resources from”, it’s that the conditions European colonization foisted upon it make getting there from this point very difficult.
Honestly, I’m not sure that there is an optimal solution there. All I’m certain about is that the European powers didn’t give a shit about anything other than resolving their own claims in an ideal fashion when releasing their colonial vassals piecemeal.
Honestly, I’m not sure that there is an optimal solution there
Well that’s why I’m asking the question. If you look at Goma and Rwanda, for example, tribes were putting a genocide on eachother before the Europeans arrived. They were doing a genocide after the Europeans left. They are doing a genocide on eachother right now when everybody pulled their hands off. At which point can you blame the genocide on the tribes themselves?
Rwandan genocide was very much fueled by Belgian racial policies.
My point isn’t that Africa would be a utopia if the European powers hadn’t carved it up like a toddler with a birthday cake, my point is only that the borders as formed in most of Subsaharan Africa are completely arbitrary divisions which rely more on conflicting colonial interests than realities of the people on the ground.
Take a look at Nigeria if you want an example of how conflicting ethnic groups artificially forced together by an attempt of colonial powers to maintain some measure of control turns out. There’s a reason most countries in Europe were either ethnically dominated empires, or ethnically homogenous nation-states - and likewise, there is a reason why European imperialists put great effort into dividing subject peoples abroad.
The ability to construct and sustain a state, or any community, is based on shared values and cultural memes.
Or do you just want to point out the bad and throw in the towel on the question of how it can be fixed?
Man, that’s for wiser fucking people than me. I’m not going to pretend to know the best outline to split up and combine African ethnicities within contiguous borders. I studied pre-modern European history, not post-independence African geopolitics. I don’t have the expertise necessary even for a rough sketch.
And honestly, I don’t think it can be fixed at this point, at least not across all so-afflicted countries. The damage is largely done. In the past 60 years, institutions have been established, internal migration has intensified, nationalism cultivated, etc. Most of Africa is probably pretty stuck with the problem, and has the unenviable task of making disparate peoples cooperate within a single polity. It is possible - but it is also difficult (see: India).
This guy, “why can’t you articulate how to undo 600 years of exploration and genicide that was done against one continent?!”
Just so you know, yes there was war bs ethnic cleansing before Europeans arrived but the scale was taken to 100 because of the Europeans. And the genicides that happened after were because of the previous occupation. If you want answers to when it’s the Africans fault, maybe read many studies, books, and reports on it instead of asking some guy on the internet. Once again, it’s very likely you are older than the governments currently in Africa. Governments that had to pick up the pieces after many axis powers collapsed, or when allied powers pulled out during the 2008 economic crisis, or even some today that still are shadow controlled by western nations / China.
Nation States are just another tool of the powerful to subjugate, a means to keep us divided as if we weren’t the same species.
Instead we see being a united species as some evil conspiracy, which is why I’m not really a fan of our species anymore. We’d rather have a chance of beating our fellow man than equitably sharing the fruits of this world. We don’t love the person on the other side of the table, we want to screw them and get more. That disgusts me, personally.
Your view is going to be unpopular with people here. Most on Lemmy would rather blame the outsiders for problems in Africa.
However, I don’t see anyone mentioning China investing hundreds of millions into infrastructure of African countries and attempting to lift many African countries our of poverty only for these countries to remain where they were.
At some point it becomes hard to continue blaming hundreds or dozens of years old events for the current situation when the current people contribute to the presently poor state of things.
You are literally voicing the white nationalist “honorary whites” and the “model minorities” that pits Asian cultures and communities against African cultures and communities. To simplify the African continents experience with colonial exploration to Asias is laughable at best and out right racist at worst.
You must be imagining something because I’m simply stating a fact of a event that has been occuring and observed. If you’re projecting some racial issues onto that - that seems like a problem you’ve gotta deal with yourself.
I don’t know what you’re on because I’ve not mentioned whites or Asians at all. It seems you’ve got some repressed anger you’re projecting at my statement of fact.
No the facts you are saying are Historically incorrect, and are an outright white nationalist talking point word for word. You don’t just “observe” the “facts” you stated. You either are a white nationalist or heard their arguments and are just parroting their lies.
You are assuming an awful lot, making an ass out of yourself. I am neither, but the fact that China has invested over $300 Billion is very well documented and is a fact. China is also African biggest trade partner with total business investments in Africa totalling over $2 Trillion. The issues causing their current economic situation are also a fact. You might not like facts, but you’re welcome to read more and expand your horizon, instead of making an ass of yourself on Lemmy assuming things about strangers.
Lol you should actually look into those China investments. Not exactly high quality infrastructure builds and come with strong Chinese authoritarian controls that treat the locals as slaves. And that still means the African nations still don’t have control over their natural resources. Which is vital to build a strong and independent nation.
Lack of foreign assistance is bad, but foreign investments are also bad. Lack of foreign technology is bad, but foreign technology partnerships are also bad. Lack of water, electricity, and jobs is bad, but the Chinese govt providing infrastructure, water wells, and jobs is also bad. Do you not see how ridiculous your views are? Radicals like you will never be happy, all you’re looking for are downsides and negatives, blaming external factors for internal issues. I find it interesting that you diminish African nations by discrediting their accountability.
Most of Africa’s nations are younger than 30 years. Several African countries still pay taxes to France. Nearly every African country doesn’t have sovereign control over their natural resources. So Ya, not to even mention the millions of people stolen from their countries. Africa is poor purely because of outside influences
The other side of that debate is that … the outside influence could work with Africa to make the continent self sufficient and capable on its own. Several studies and research has shown that if properly set up and organized, the African continent has more than enough resources to produce its own food supply, clean water supply and energy production.
Unfortunately, instead of the outside world helping Africa to get to this point … the world instead uses Africa as just another place to exploit and make money out of. In the short sighted vision of the first world … it’s more lucrative to make a bunch of money now by taking advantage of poor dying people than it is to help them become productive members of the global economy.
It’s a prime example of how as a civilization we build and maintain our world on exploitation, coercion and death
I would argue it’s more complex than that. The very conditions created by European colonization have resulted in extreme instability and corruption in the resulting, mostly-arbitrarily drawn states, which heavily discourages investment from rational (though amoral) actors. It’s not that the rest of the world market doesn’t want Africa to be more “Developing Southeast Asia” than “Place we get raw resources from”, it’s that the conditions European colonization foisted upon it make getting there from this point very difficult.
Which African states do you think should be redrawn?
Honestly, I’m not sure that there is an optimal solution there. All I’m certain about is that the European powers didn’t give a shit about anything other than resolving their own claims in an ideal fashion when releasing their colonial vassals piecemeal.
Well that’s why I’m asking the question. If you look at Goma and Rwanda, for example, tribes were putting a genocide on eachother before the Europeans arrived. They were doing a genocide after the Europeans left. They are doing a genocide on eachother right now when everybody pulled their hands off. At which point can you blame the genocide on the tribes themselves?
Rwandan genocide was very much fueled by Belgian racial policies.
My point isn’t that Africa would be a utopia if the European powers hadn’t carved it up like a toddler with a birthday cake, my point is only that the borders as formed in most of Subsaharan Africa are completely arbitrary divisions which rely more on conflicting colonial interests than realities of the people on the ground.
Take a look at Nigeria if you want an example of how conflicting ethnic groups artificially forced together by an attempt of colonial powers to maintain some measure of control turns out. There’s a reason most countries in Europe were either ethnically dominated empires, or ethnically homogenous nation-states - and likewise, there is a reason why European imperialists put great effort into dividing subject peoples abroad.
The ability to construct and sustain a state, or any community, is based on shared values and cultural memes.
But that’s why I’m asking the question. Can you provide a map for how Africa should be divided?
Or do you just want to point out the bad and throw in the towel on the question of how it can be fixed?
Man, that’s for wiser fucking people than me. I’m not going to pretend to know the best outline to split up and combine African ethnicities within contiguous borders. I studied pre-modern European history, not post-independence African geopolitics. I don’t have the expertise necessary even for a rough sketch.
And honestly, I don’t think it can be fixed at this point, at least not across all so-afflicted countries. The damage is largely done. In the past 60 years, institutions have been established, internal migration has intensified, nationalism cultivated, etc. Most of Africa is probably pretty stuck with the problem, and has the unenviable task of making disparate peoples cooperate within a single polity. It is possible - but it is also difficult (see: India).
This guy, “why can’t you articulate how to undo 600 years of exploration and genicide that was done against one continent?!”
Just so you know, yes there was war bs ethnic cleansing before Europeans arrived but the scale was taken to 100 because of the Europeans. And the genicides that happened after were because of the previous occupation. If you want answers to when it’s the Africans fault, maybe read many studies, books, and reports on it instead of asking some guy on the internet. Once again, it’s very likely you are older than the governments currently in Africa. Governments that had to pick up the pieces after many axis powers collapsed, or when allied powers pulled out during the 2008 economic crisis, or even some today that still are shadow controlled by western nations / China.
Can you support your claim that ‘the ethnic cleansing was taken to 100 because of the Europeans’ ?
It’s a figure of speech…
Nation States are just another tool of the powerful to subjugate, a means to keep us divided as if we weren’t the same species.
Instead we see being a united species as some evil conspiracy, which is why I’m not really a fan of our species anymore. We’d rather have a chance of beating our fellow man than equitably sharing the fruits of this world. We don’t love the person on the other side of the table, we want to screw them and get more. That disgusts me, personally.
This is simplistic and naive to the point it feels like propaganda.
Your view is going to be unpopular with people here. Most on Lemmy would rather blame the outsiders for problems in Africa. However, I don’t see anyone mentioning China investing hundreds of millions into infrastructure of African countries and attempting to lift many African countries our of poverty only for these countries to remain where they were. At some point it becomes hard to continue blaming hundreds or dozens of years old events for the current situation when the current people contribute to the presently poor state of things.
You are literally voicing the white nationalist “honorary whites” and the “model minorities” that pits Asian cultures and communities against African cultures and communities. To simplify the African continents experience with colonial exploration to Asias is laughable at best and out right racist at worst.
You must be imagining something because I’m simply stating a fact of a event that has been occuring and observed. If you’re projecting some racial issues onto that - that seems like a problem you’ve gotta deal with yourself.
I don’t know what you’re on because I’ve not mentioned whites or Asians at all. It seems you’ve got some repressed anger you’re projecting at my statement of fact.
No the facts you are saying are Historically incorrect, and are an outright white nationalist talking point word for word. You don’t just “observe” the “facts” you stated. You either are a white nationalist or heard their arguments and are just parroting their lies.
You are assuming an awful lot, making an ass out of yourself. I am neither, but the fact that China has invested over $300 Billion is very well documented and is a fact. China is also African biggest trade partner with total business investments in Africa totalling over $2 Trillion. The issues causing their current economic situation are also a fact. You might not like facts, but you’re welcome to read more and expand your horizon, instead of making an ass of yourself on Lemmy assuming things about strangers.
Lol you should actually look into those China investments. Not exactly high quality infrastructure builds and come with strong Chinese authoritarian controls that treat the locals as slaves. And that still means the African nations still don’t have control over their natural resources. Which is vital to build a strong and independent nation.
Lack of foreign assistance is bad, but foreign investments are also bad. Lack of foreign technology is bad, but foreign technology partnerships are also bad. Lack of water, electricity, and jobs is bad, but the Chinese govt providing infrastructure, water wells, and jobs is also bad. Do you not see how ridiculous your views are? Radicals like you will never be happy, all you’re looking for are downsides and negatives, blaming external factors for internal issues. I find it interesting that you diminish African nations by discrediting their accountability.