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I feel like the point is rather that instead of redefining masculinity into something more positive, we should rather deconstruct gender norms in general. Because regardless of masculinity being something “positive” or “negative”, it is still an expectation for people to live up to. And eventually people will fail to live up to them. That’s why I would say it is preferable to deconstuct gender as a whole, rather than redefining it.
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While it would be interesting to live in a world without gender, it’s a very radical change.
I don’t think that is necessary. What we should do is to detach gender from any form of judgement or expectation. There is this feminist, liberal idea of how a modern man should be like, act like, feel like - but at the end of the day it is still maintaining the concept that men have some sort of role to fulfill. That it is what bothers me about gender expectations: you are supposed to be in a certain way just because of the sex you were born with/the gender you appear to be. And no matter how you want to (re)define it, you’re always going to have people who won’t feel comfortable in these categories.
There’s also a bit of a colonial attitude issue, can we say tell other cultures (ex. Indigenous) to stop their traditions around gender such as coming of age ceremonies?
What exactly is the colonial attitude supposed to be? This discussion seems to focus on western ideas around gender?
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first of all, I really apreciate your comment is thematically consistent with your username. checks out!
it’s ok to be a man if it’s ok to be a woman.
I never said otherwise! gender and identity is fine, and people should live and express themselves however they feel the happiest with.
all you talk about is about dicks and vaginas
I am specifically not doing that. gender is not tied to sex. I think you really miss my point here. I think that men should be free of any gender expectation. People should be able to identify themselves without having to meet any expectations imposed by society.
as if one’s “gender” is ALL one’s personality
I quite literally advocate for the opposite - gender does not (intrinsically) mean anything for one’s personality.
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Anyone who thinks Trump is a representation of masculinity is not someone who’s opinion on the matter I care for.
While this is a fine personal metric, I think it ignores the growing social power of the strong man right and the related manosphere subcultures.
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Just because you don’t think so doesn’t mean those things haven’t had influence on the cultural perception of it.
I understand the desire to separate yourself from those things as an individual. And I don’t know what method will work, but simply telling people the “manosphere” just doesn’t count isn’t going to change anyone’s minds.
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That may be the case but it is not a rebuttal to my point.
Those things have had an influence on the perception of masculinity. And yes, TERFs have had an influence on the perception of feminism. And simply saying they don’t count isn’t an effective way of countering that influence.
Well it’s not a new issue, at all.
For a lot of folks Trump is representation of masculinity. I think it’s something worth reflecting on.
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It seems like the author cannot reconcile that positive masculinity cannot simultaneously mean to be a good person who has a satisfying, meaningful life.
There is no rule set down in stone for what men have to be like and what women have to be like. I do think there are rules for what people generally ought to be like, and I admire those who display what I consider to be the universal virtues. It’s true that many young men lead lives of quiet desperation. But I don’t see how masculinity has anything to do with the solution to that.
I get the general point that gender roles should be overcome etc, but we’re definitely not gonna be able to change anything by ignoring the fact that they exist and influence us on a daily basis.
That makes as much sense as saying trans, non-binary people only need to have a satisfying, meaningful life without a vision of masculinity, femininity, or gender Identity.
you left out the “positive” in your analogy:
trans, non-binary people only need to have a satisfying, meaningful life without a vision of positive masculinity, femininity, or gender Identity
Of course it makes sense to have a concept of these things, but the point is that it is not helpful to define these things with positive or negative values, but rather to look consider these things independent from one another.
No. Gender Identity isn’t zero sum. Things can be positive without other things being negative.
no matter how positively you define a gender role, it will negatively impact those who struggle with conforming to said roles. So I say it is preferable to define masculinity (or gender in general) without any value judgement.
I hate gender roles and assigning anything to them. But everybody deserves a positive view of the traits and ideals they identify with and everybody deserves positive examples of how to express/demonstrate the traits and ideals they identify with.
Noticing more smells and colors and flavors and sounds and being able to listen to more complicated music are all skills that we gain over our life. Identifying and identifying with traits you have or aspire to is almost certainly the same, and even if it isn’t I have no place to say that someone else shouldn’t think about themselves primarily as being a reproductive male (which may be devastating if that’s not something they can do), and since that is a common way to see oneself, due to the importance of reproduction or due to culture or due to some aesthetic like which flavors go together, then people identifying with masculinity deserve positive views of it, and positive examples of how to express it.
Noticing more smells and colors and flavors and sounds and being able to listen to more complicated music are all skills that we gain over our life
Great analogy here. It’s sth that I didn’t find the right words to explain for.
Only if you broadcast your list of gender “check boxes”, and come down on others to follow them.
Everyone is free to pursue whatever makes them feel happy and whole, so long as that collection of traits does not direct impact other’s lives.
Like if my chosen trait is “responsibility and physical fitness”, that has no inherent impact on anyone else.
Everyone should be encouraged or coached to pursue what’s right for them, not what’s right for someone else.
Only if you broadcast your list of gender “check boxes”, and come down on others to follow them.
I think this is precisely what gender roles are supposed to do.
Do young men really pursue masculinity because it truly matches with the people they are or do they do that because of the benefits of being ‘masculine’? You’ll enjoy respect, authority, a certain sex-appeal, confidence… And if you challenge gender norms you’ll experience the opposite. You’re gonna be treated more like a women. And that’s the reason why masculinity is appealing to young men. And I feel like this is fundamentally problematic. I don’t think the individual traits are bad (as you said, responsibility, physical fitness etc), it is the expectations and privileges attached to masculinity.
The broadcast to others is the point I’m targeting.
Keep your own list and enjoy it. Just don’t expect it out of others, perhaps aside from your SO, and even that would only be a temporary thing, or a vehicle for discussion about changes in their life.
There is an extreme pressure for boys and men to be masculine. It is like a radio so strong it interferes with any other radio station. There is so much discrimination you face as a ‘feminine’ man. In this context it feels odd to say ‘mind your own business’
this was a really funny article to me because the author really doesn’t seem that attached to being a man. i want to be clear, that’s fine and valid. but it seems weird to then speak to the want of men in general to have more positive role models of masculinity, and say, well you should just want positive role models
like? yeah, you can have role models of any gender, but isn’t it nice to have role models who look like you? isn’t that the entire point that people make when saying representation is important? that doesn’t stop being true just because we’re talking about men now
he’s missing such a basic and fundamental argument that the entire thing just becomes, at least for me, an externalized argument about how he feels about his own gender, which appears to be disconnected and largely not good
also he picked like, apparently the worst examples of masculinity he could find and said, yeah this is why we don’t need positive masculinity?? like c’mon
i like being a man, it’s cool. there’s a lot (A LOT) of shit i have to reconcile with being a man. but imo that’s part of the duty that comes with it. so yeah, author, it would be pretty cool to see men who had done that, who expressed their masculinity in unique and authentic ways that sometimes conform and sometimes don’t
you know. like people
(i want to take a moment to say that i have several women role models and also people whose gender identities aren’t so easily captured by the binary. but those people, generally speaking, don’t need to reconcile with the long history of people of their gender doing harm to those around them, nor with the present day scars from that harm. it’s a LOT to come to grips with understanding that you scare a lot of people just by existing, and frankly, that’s just an experience that a man is more commonly going to have to experience. exclusively? of course not. obviously, there’s a racial bias here as well. but due to the commonality, having readily available examples of how to handle it well, and even gracefully, would be nice)
This guy is so close but got stuck jerking off his own intellectualism half way.
As a rule masculinity and femininity are both a collection of traits. Usually defined something like this:
Masculinity is assertiveness, confidence and maybe something like independence.
Femininity is Emotional intelligence, Empathy and maybe something like team-coordination.
Now I view these groups like the hormones testosterone and estrogen. You need both to function. But the ratio between them defines whether you appear masculine or feminine.
You need to be capable of displaying both groups.
However, currently one side demonizes masculine traits, while the other side calls feminine traits gay.
The Author is close to the truth, in the sense that the traits he describes as good masculine traits shouldn’t be exclusive to men. But he looses the plot by tying the traits directly and exclusively to the genders. This is illustrated by calling Margaret Thatcher an honorary man instead of a masculine woman.
Because of this he concludes, that everyone should have all traits regardless of group. This is correct but looses the significance of these groups, both in terms of role models and sexuality.
He accurately points out the issues and ridiculousness of current masculinity gurus but misses why they are appealing. The need for guidance amongst young men is evident.
But let’s leave aside all discussion of what makes someone a real “man” and just aspire to become decent human beings.
This quote betrays a general misunderstanding of what the issue is. Becoming a decent human is not a problem. The issue is becoming a (good) man. Society has gone far in expanding women’s possibilities, but the traditional roles for men have not really been changed, so they don’t fit into this new environment. This leads to a lot of confusion, to where we have cis men struggling to perform their gender and looking for help.
Now Tate and company offer some form of help. Its terrible, but it speaks to the problem, while Mr. Robinson pretends like the problem doesn’t exist and just tells young man to become good humans.
Its often interesting to view gender issues through the trans lens. In this case I would argue that the Author would approach a trans man, who is asking how to be a man very differently.
In my opinion this article is part of the problem driving more men to become Tate-stans and misogynists.
TL;DR: Everyone should display all traits, but the ratio is significant to determine overall appearance.
The existence of stereotypes like tomboy show that there is a link between traits and gender, but on an individual basis the ratio of traits can swap. And that’s also cool.
Also the author is an ideolog ignoring the problem he writes about.
This is illustrated by calling Margaret Thatcher an honorary man instead of a masculine woman.
The author is quoting here, he didn’t say that himself:
Josh Hawley, who thinks the left is waging a war on our Masculine Virtues, defines those virtues as “courage, independence, and assertiveness,” presumably qualities that women aren’t meant to have—or if they do possess them, it simply means they’re Manly women (just as Thatcher becomes an honorary man in Mansfield’s formulation)
Society has gone far in expanding women’s possibilities, but the traditional roles for men have not really been changed, so they don’t fit into this new environment. This leads to a lot of confusion, to where we have cis men struggling to perform their gender and looking for help.
I don’t think anybody should ever “perform” a gender! As soon as it becomes a performance, it is unauthentic to the person they truly are, and needs to be deconstructed. The don’t need instructions on how to ‘perform’ a gender, they need instructions on how to free themselves from these expectations.
In this case I would argue that the Author would approach a trans man, who is asking how to be a man
There is nothing a trans man has to do in order to be a man. They are a man. There is nothing that could possibly make them less of a man. No instructions needed. Just be authentic to yourself.
I don’t think anybody should ever “perform” a gender!
“Perform” in a sociological sense doesn’t mean inauthentic. It simply means to fulfill a societal role. We perform constantly. I do. You do. The author does. We perform as spouses, parents, children, siblings, professionals, leaders, followers, etc.
This performance is a huge burden for me, and also for so many other people. I do very poorly, and because of that, I am not as well respected. My life would be way better if this sort of pressure didn’t exist. It makes no sense to me that I have to fulfill a specific societal role because of the gender I was born into. So I’d say yes, it very much means that performing a gender is inauthentic for a lot of people.
He does refer to a quote, but I think the “honorary man” wording comes from him. If he quotes it, the rest of the article still proves that he links these trait-groups exclusively to either gender.
Gender performance isn’t something you fake, like in a theater, it’s more something you do like performing in a sport. I should have clarified that.
Also being yourself is not an answer. Young people are struggling with exactly that. Being yourself only works, if you know what yourself is. Gender traits or role models can give great guidelines for what you strive to be. And somewhere along your growth as a person you will find things that work and things that don’t. But you need some “starting direction” because yourself is usually still a kid.
For the trans thing, my wording is a bit unclear.
I meant acting like a (stereotypical) man.
You can say that they are a man as soon as they identify as one. I would also treat people that way. But the goal of most trans people is being recognized as their identified gender, without stating it, also called passing.
If you talk to trans people, there is often a concept of performing gender. This includes fashion and voice, but also mannerisms. To some these mannerisms come naturally, some train them to be more in line with how they view themselves.
I think these mannerisms and to an extend fashion are things that young men are also looking to modify in order to pass as men.
The obvious difference being that trans men switch gender, while cis men just go from boys to men.
Gender performance isn’t something you fake, like in a theater, it’s more something you do like performing in a sport.
I really like the analogy because it implies something that also happens in reality: it is competitive. You’re seen as inferior if you aren’t good at it. Which is a huge, huge problem
But you need some “starting direction” because yourself is usually still a kid.
I think it is a fair point. But masculinity (however you define it) should not be a default, and it should not be specifically encouraged for boys to aspire to. Like, I understand the need for role models, but why is masculinity relevant here?
But the goal of most trans people is being recognized as their identified gender, without stating it, also called passing.
I think the desire of a lot of men (trans or not) to conform to gender norms is not because we genuinely enjoy being masculine, it is rather because we enjoy more respect when we conform to these gender roles. Being “less of a man” sucks because people treat you as inferior. So we are inclined to conform. I am not trans but I can imagine that some feel a higher need to “prove” their masculinity because they are constantly invalidated.
I agree, that just masculinity is a bad direction, but it helps narrow down possible directions. It’s just a very easy group you are kinda born into. A lot of people seem to need frameworks to tailor their lives after, as seen by the tate-stans, or kardashian-stans for women.
I agree, that picking traits of several different people and freestyle some of your own is a better way to do it. But that is difficult sometimes and just being told what to do seems to appeal to a large chunk of people.
Kinda like using Linux vs Windows/Mac XD
Your point about loosing at gender like loosing in sports is great. I will definitely think more about the competition aspect sometime. It definitely is a thing with men (see dick-size jokes), idk if it is the same for women, though. There are definetly insults amongst women (slut/bitch) but I’m not sure if it has the same “less of insert gender” connotation.
To address this there probably needs to be a similar shift in gender roles for men, as there was for women. Women now are displaying a lot of traditionally male traits, while vegan men are called gay (derogatorily).
Idk how that shift will happen, but I think the first step would be for everyone to accept anger as an emotion. This would have multiple effects. First the “women are emotional” argument is moot, just look at crime rates. Secondly recognizing it as an emotion removes a lot of the stigma, thereby allowing men to deal with it instead of repressing. And lastly it might remove the “ranking” of emotions. Ranking in the sense, that when a woman cries and a man gets angry in response to something the man is expected to take care of the woman. This usually leads to more repressing.
All in all, I like the queer community, even if I’m mostly straight, just because I don’t have to compete in the gender game. Just not caring gives me a lot of confidence, ironically making me more masculine in traditional settings. XD
@MareOfNights@discuss.tchncs.de hoping you’ll see this as well
kind of feel weird about you both using trans men as demonstrating your argument without either of you actually being trans. there are as many kinds of trans men as there are cis, and you can find examples of those of us who enjoy conforming to stereotypical masculinity and those of us who don’t
it’s also fairly presumptuous to assume every trans person’s goal is to pass, and also to presume the intent behind the goal of passing
honestly even presuming that trans men are asking how to be men, instead of defining it for themselves, is very presumptuous
like, the points you’re making, in general, aren’t bad. but it kind of feels icky to presume a minority’s goal and to also use it as an argument, when that minority’s reasoning is wide and varied. i think most people don’t like being treated like a monolith and i think that applies here, too
trans men were also largely unnecessary for the arguments you were making. a lot of it could be said for people who want to or enjoy (or don’t!) presenting masculine, regardless of sex assigned at birth. the answer to the author’s question, why should we have positive examples of masculinity, really boils down to, because some people like being masculine, but not toxic. trans men aren’t really special in that regard
anyways, keep in mind that i don’t speak for all trans men, but this trans man felt weird about this, like i’m being referenced as a demographic with no regard for what being in the demographic is like. thanks for reading
Sounds like the author thinks we need to change our culture’s definition of “masculine.” I agree.
I think the author is saying more like: “A positive, specific masculinity may not exist at all”
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Okay troll, what do YOU think masculinity should look like?
If you believe they were a troll, why reply at all?
He may be. I think he’s wrong, but he’s entitled to his opinion.
Or at least that the effort required to construct one is maybe a misguided use of our resources.
It already exists, we don’t need to “construct” it?
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I’m not a very “masculine” man, I guess. I like flowers, and I wear purple. I sip lattes and my hair is longer than average. I have a trace of a British accent, which makes me sound prissy. I do lift weights at the gym most days, but it certainly hasn’t turned me into the Hulk. When I’m sad, I cry, and when I am delighted, I laugh. I am tender toward animals. Does it add up to being “unmanly”?
If you substitute for black coffee, I fulfill just about all of this criteria.
Based on my limited understanding of what masculinity is supposed to be, he beats me at it.
So he admits to not understanding masculinity, not engaging with it, then stating that it is pointless. Methinks he is threatened by masculinity and thus he tries to claim it is unnecessary or automatically and necessarily harmful on its face. The “essence” of the sexes — masculinity and feminity — have been commercialized, commodified, pulled out by the roots and dipped in a disinfectant solution. I can see this in how every reference to his understanding is hinged on pop stars and movie figures.
What is masculinity? It’s a hard term to define because the basic sense of it is so general. How do you describe sight? How do you describe feeling confident? It’s not exactly easy to define the sweeping, largest-scale aspects of our lives. I think that masculinity is not set in stone but there are some general, atavistic elements of it that are mostly universal to all men who have those traits, borne necessarily of living in a dangerous world and needing to protect kith and kin:
- Disagreeableness (sometimes decisions must be made without a discussion, life or death, etc)
- Lowered inhibition (willingness to go out and take risks for higher gain)
- Ability to withstand troublesome situations/pain (one only needs to look to the conditions that construction and other trades workers endure, traditionally masculine jobs)
Women historically often encapsulated the reversal or mirror of many of these traits:
- Agreeableness (physically smaller and weaker women tend to be safer in numbers and when working together)
- Higher inhibition (risk taking = higher chance of death = less chance children survive or are born)
- More apt to improving on a rough environment instead of just dealing with it (healthier, happier home, etc)
It isn’t to say that I don’t believe that these traits cross over between the sexes, of course they do, and someone can embody many of these traits and be masculine or feminine.
But people have an essence about them. The reader himself states that he considers himself to be more feminine. I think that it is healthy and normal to recognize one’s essence in this manner, and to strive to live in comport with their basic feeling of self. I lived a very feminized life for years and was unhappy with myself. Upon taking on some more masculine traits, I found strength and austerity that I lacked before.
I think the traits you list are a bit too abstract. When people list traits they strive for, they are usually derived from yours.
Yours might factually fit the data, but men don’t aim to be disagreeable, they aim to be independent or confident. Same with women and being empathetic and social.
The problem is that everyone needs all those traits. This is where the author fails by saying the groups are pointless.
I think the ratio of how pronounced the traits are is what makes masculinity and femininity.
I certainly can be more specific but people don’t tend to like when you get too detailed. I don’t think people strive towards these traits necessarily, and certainly someone raised in such a way will do so naturally without thought, which is partially why is hard to define masculinity etc. I do like what you say, and I absolutely agree that both sets of traits are needed. It’s just that they tend to weigh differently with populations
I wholeheartedly agree. I don’t believe there is such a thing as a “good masculinity” in the same way there isn’t any “good femininity”. Gender roles don’t need to be redefined, they should be overcome.
Gender is merely an aspect of identity, and expressing your identity in a positive way should not be discouraged
of course it shouldn’t! but the problems arise when it becomes some sort of pressure to conform to. A man likes working out, look jacked and have a well combed beard? If he’s happy in his body, that is awesome! doesn’t mean we should make a role model out of him and encourage others to be like that to. Because a man who wears dresses, knits and is a huge nerd about make-up is equally worthy of feeling happy about himself. If we make any kind of masculinity more ‘positive’ than the other, we run into problems
It’s almost like there are more than two clearly defined expressions of gender
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Gender roles don’t need to be redefined, they should be overcome.
It’s fascinating to me how people blurt statements like this out and then just move on like that settles the issue.
Like we’re not living in a gendered world and will continue do so for every single day of our lives.
Even if you think that gender should be abolished as the ultimate goal you have to acknowledge that, in the mean time, boys and young men have to navigate a world that is not blind to gender. And if they are looking for guidance on how to do that and you’re just sticking your head in the sand, they will get their answers from people who give them what they’re looking for. Even if those answers are terrible.
So why do men look for guidance on how to be masculine? Why is it even appealing to be masculine? I believe it has little to do with the characteristics themselves (which keep changing and are hard to specify), I believe boys and young men aspire to be masculine because of the benefits you receive when you conform to these ideals. The more masculine you are, the more respect society pays you, you’ll have more authority, people will find you more sexually attractive. All of these things are universally desirable, so young men will certainly want all of these things. So any kind of ‘guidance’ on masculinity, even if it is positive and affirmative, isn’t a means for people to find out who they are, and instead it maintains a system in which men (also women, if we speak more broadly about patriarchy) are made to conform to gender norms.
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Well he doesn’t call it immoral, he just says that it doesn’t exist. (Also pretty dumb tho)
