In his starkest warning yet, President Zelenskyy said that "Ukraine will lose the war" to Russia if Congress does not act to send it more aid.
  • IninewCrow@lemmy.caEnglish
    19221·
    9 months ago

    Ukraine United States is going to lose if Congress doesn’t send more aid

    The fact that everyone understands that the war in Ukraine is based on American backing means that it’s a proxy war between the US and Russia.

    • Melkath@kbin.social
      12817·
      9 months ago

      $773 billion dollars last year spent on fighting “proxy” wars around the world (and if you count the spying, domestically).

      The only one that America has actual moral footing to get behind is the only one we are pulling punches on.

      • CountVon@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
        474·
        9 months ago

        Hardly the first time. I’d argue the US made the same mistake in Afghanistan in 2003, diverting resources to Iraq because Bush Jr. had such a hard-on for Saddam.

        • Melkath@kbin.social
          4021·
          9 months ago

          100%

          With each passing day, Biden’s administration looks like the Bush administration’s bigger more right wing brother.

          Citizens United needs to be overturned. The Pentagon budget needs to be at least halved. We need the 2 party system to end.

          This will never happen if we keep voting for the lesser evil every 4 years.

          • Goldmage263@sh.itjust.works
            613·
            9 months ago

            I agree with the viewpoints, but many voted for the Russia supporting party, and noone else got enough support in the primaries. There needs to be massively increased primary involvement before a systemic change to move away from the two party system can be feasible. I’m a big fan of ranked choice voting myself, but what big party candidate is going to advocate for that in the current climate? I’m hoping changes can happen over the next decade as my generation and the one below get even more active.

            • Melkath@kbin.social
              1216·
              9 months ago

              Republicans are corrupted spoiled fucks.

              Democrats are corrupted spoiled fucks.

              How do you think “massively increased involvement” will occur if we keep throwing our votes at these massively corrupt spoiled fucks?

              Peaceful abstaining. Quiet sit in. America on strike.

              That is the only possible way we have to cause the change we needed at least 50 years ago.

              • Goldmage263@sh.itjust.works
                31·
                9 months ago

                I mean involvement of the voters themselves. I push a lot of my friends to just go vote, but they still won’t. If you figure out how to get people to actually want to fix the situation, let me know.

                • Melkath@kbin.social
                  31·
                  9 months ago

                  I know that in America, currently, “peaceful protester” is an officially classified terrorist group. That was what Occupy Wallstreet resulted in.

                  I have no idea what Blue MAGA is even suggesting when they say “get more involved in government outside of election season”. The concept doesn’t exist.

                  I definitely still vote on measures.

                  When my choices are vote for Genocide and continued severe loss of privacy of freedom A or Genocide and continued severe loss of privacy of freedom B, all I can figure is vote disenfranchised. Won’t check the damn box.

                  Primary results where people did that have already gotten Biden change his half hour chit chat with Bibi from “your US taxpayer dollars are on the way. The weapons you are buying with those dollars are on the way” to “your US taxpayer dollars are on the way. The weapons you are buying with those dollars are on the way, try to go easier on the civilians in Gaza.”

                  If Biden suffers a shameful and embarrassing defeat, maybe the next Democrat will figure out the correct answer is “fuck you Bibi, you genocidal maniac. Israel is cut off, that money will now be invested into fixing the healthcare crisis in America, our military is moving humanitarian aid into Gaza, and if your genocidal asshats so much as point a gun in the general direction of our soldiers and the starving citizens of Gaza, you will enjoy our crosshairs.”

      • triplenadir@lemmygrad.ml
        215·
        9 months ago

        mm, delicious bait! 😋 go on then, which proxy war does the US have “actual moral footing” to get behind?

  • Karyoplasma@discuss.tchncs.de
    1286·
    9 months ago

    Yes, no shit. That was the outlook from day 1.

    The Russian Army is largely represented as a bunch of baffoons in the Western media, but it’s still one of the 3 largest armies in the world. Ukraine cannot hold their lines indefinitely, the only way to “win” against an opponent that has multiple times your materiel available is guerilla.

  • istanbullu@lemmy.ml
    1205·
    9 months ago

    It is a bad idea to trust and rely on Ameeica. Some Afgans learned this lesson in 2021, the same is happening to Ukraine now.

    • assassinatedbyCIA@lemmy.world
      258·
      9 months ago

      They so desperately want their own version of Putin in the US. Where they get to kill their political opponents when they like.

          • Amerikan Pharaoh@lemmygrad.ml
            51·
            9 months ago

            You know he just condemned 61 protestors to years of federal carceral slavery under the RICO act, which was INTENDED to be used against organized crime? Your man’s a straight-up fascist dictator, and you’re a collaborator.

            • Tech With Jake@lemm.ee
              22·
              9 months ago

              If you’re talking about the “Cop City” protesters, that was Georgia State. Not Federal government. It’s 100% bullshit but it’s not Biden’s fault. It’s the Republican lead government of Georgia and their AG.

              • Amerikan Pharaoh@lemmygrad.ml
                21·
                9 months ago

                As the head of the Executive branch, it’s his law. RICO charges are federal charges, they carry FELONY time of up to twenty years if not longer because that’s just a guideline. It also falls to him to grant pardons. Ergo, his inaction is his fault. Do not come to me caping for settlers like YOU’RE THE GUY who can run defense for him. You are not him.

  • lemmytellyousomething@lemmy.dbzer0.com
    13962·
    9 months ago

    The free world loses when Russia wins.

    It’s pretty much an invitation to China to do the same in Taiwan and an invitation for Russia to start more wars in eastern Europe…

    Helping Ukraine costs money. Not helping Ukraine costs even more.

    • Amerikan Pharaoh@lemmygrad.ml
      248·
      9 months ago

      The free world loses when Russia wins.

      I’d pay good money to watch the Anglos crash and burn tbh. Like, PPV amounts of money. At this point it might be the only way to avert climate collapse; if possible at all, and I have no material reason to want to see you propagate or prosper. Die faster; and do a backflip on your way down.

    • bufalo1973@lemmy.ml
      82·
      9 months ago

      You mean the “free world” that has Assange, Pablo González and lots of other journalists jailed? The same free world that has destroyed every country that didn’t fall in line with US interests?

      • ZILtoid1991@lemmy.world
        1114·
        9 months ago

        Russia is way worse. I’m in Hungary, and our government tries everything to scrub information about stuff they don’t like, all while putting Project 2025-tier evil stuff into our constitution, meaning it could be pretty much be undone by an armed rebellion, which will very unlikely thanks to what I call “weaponized doomerism” (pushing people into inaction via depression, crushed protests, and underfunded health care system), and “political gaslighting” (basically the method behind “you’ll be more conservative as you get older”).

    • XiELEd@lemmy.world
      811·
      9 months ago

      China is already bullying the Philippines too out of our own territorial waters, and they have already caused severe injuries to our countrymen. They literally want an entire sea to themselves and leave us with none. Just look at their nine dash line.

      Edit: Here’s their nine-dash-line, they even want Malaysia’s sea, which is a long way away from chinese mainland, while they want seas close to the land territories of so many SEA nations.

    • index@sh.itjust.works
      1227·
      9 months ago

      Building weapons and empowering authoritarian regimes is an invitation for anyone for more wars.

      Helping Ukraine only costs money if you dump money and weapons at it instead of providing actual help.

    • я не из калининграда@lemmy.ml
      5171·
      9 months ago

      wait, you are not being ironical?

      how the fuck do you manage to claim that the west is the free world™ while it is the empire to blame for the largest amount of worldwide suffering in the second half of the twentieth century? It is responsible for countless invasions, sanction regimes and assassinations with the goal of subjugating foreign nations, as well as courting nazis post ww2, like for example people like klaus barbie or wernher von braun, as well as the entire early government of the frg.

      your fantasizing about a supposed military threat from the prc to taiwan and from russia to the rest of europe is nothing but pure projection, since you westoids apparently cant imagine someone acting from a different motivation than your own. the prc has time and time again stated that it prefers a peaceful resolution to the taiwan conflict and the province has never officially declared any grade of independence from the mainland, simply being under a different government, the roc.

      russia on the other hand has absolutely no reason to start any military conflicts in western europe, something you would know, if you would even try to understand the lead up to the current situation.

      your last sentence honestly just sounds like a thinly veiled blood for the blood god.

        • Aria@lemmygrad.ml
          242·
          9 months ago

          imnotfromkaliningrad’s comment includes reasoning and it’s obviously their opinion. Meanwhile yours is the propaganda verbatim with no analysis and no reasoning.

        • Sagittarii@lemm.ee
          2420·
          9 months ago

          Notice how you didn’t address anything in their comment because there’s no argument against it.

          • TokenBoomer@lemmy.world
            27·
            9 months ago

            Found this video about how Americans live. North Korean propaganda says we eat birds. All countries distort the truth, even ‘Merica. I wish more people understood this.

            • я не из калининграда@lemmy.ml
              122·
              9 months ago

              the video was actually not made by north korea. it is a parody created by a british comedy director. dprk media typically depicts the us in a fairly accurate manner, or at least more truthfully than how american media portrays korea.

              • TokenBoomer@lemmy.world
                5·
                9 months ago

                I’m so gullible. I wanted to make coffee out of snow after this video. I thought this was real too, until my wife told me it had to be fake. I wanted it to be real.

                • я не из калининграда@lemmy.ml
                  91·
                  9 months ago

                  i feel ya, western propaganda against korea is sadly hard to undo, considering the sheer amount of it. a great way to do it through is to read korean history, with a wonderful beginners read on the topic being this book. after a while you realize that many of the claims against the dprk are often nothing but simple projection, like for example haircut policing being an actual thing in 1980s south korea.

      • ZILtoid1991@lemmy.world
        612·
        9 months ago

        “The vatniks have entered the fediverse.”

        The “peaceful” resolution of the Taiwan situation is reunification, which will lead to Chinese-style dictatorship.

        • я не из калининграда@lemmy.ml
          1710·
          9 months ago

          you westoid liberasts have no reason to be here anyways. just fuck of back to reddit if you dont like it here.

          that “chinese style dictatorship” you mentioned is a good thing, obviously.

          • ZILtoid1991@lemmy.world
            315·
            9 months ago

            So Elon Musk-style people are good as long as they’re not leading corporations, but states? I rarely seen anything else among those dictators.

            Okay, Elon only hides your Tweet for using the word “cis”, not send you directly to a work camp…

        • Arelin@lemmy.zip
          231·
          9 months ago

          the western world made their population aware of this wrong actions and helped steer them in the right direction

          You say as it’s committing a genocide in Palestine via a western colony.

          “Free press” just means capitalist/corporate propaganda; only outlets funded or run by capitalists can realistically reach a large audience.

        • ExotiqueMatter@lemmygrad.ml
          182·
          9 months ago

          Unfortunately and scarily, Russia is showing much of the same pattern as Germany in its most dark past, with the ruski mir looking more and more like the german lebensraum.

          When you totally know what the lebensraum was.

          The Nazis’ lebensraum project wasn’t just taking over a bunch of land in Europe, it was a settler colonial project inspired by the American policies of systematic forced displacement and extermination of the native populations under the doctrine manifest destiny.

          Lebensraum was a pseudo-scientific racist theory formulated by pro-colonialism far right German thinkers, according to the lebensraum theory, a race needs a certain amount of space for themselves in order to attain their full potential and therefore need to take their necessary territory from “lesser” races by force. To summarise rapidly how it was developed, the German colonialists basically went “Look at America, they expanded to the west basically exterminating every native population in the way and replacing they with white settlers and now they’re super rich and powerful, so if we exterminate a bunch of native populations, take over their land and put native Germans in their place, we should become super rich and powerful too”.

          The idea was put into practice in Namibia, then one of the German empire’s colonies, resulting in the genocide of the Herero and Nama.

          Fast forward a bit, Adolph Hitler was visited in prison by one of the main colonialist thinkers behind lebensraum theory and Hitler was rapidly convinced to adopt it.

          And that’s how was born the genocidal project of the Nazis in eastern Europe, just as their mentor the United States had rid “their” land of “lesser” north Americans natives to expand westward and make way for the “superior” whites, so would Germany rid eastern Europe of Jews and Slavs to make way for the “Aryans”.

          Now comes the question: is Russia doing any of that? Does the Russian government believe in and promote a theory that rank races to justify the extermination of “lesser” ones? Is Russia shoving Ukrainians (or anyone else) in concentration camps and “reservation”? Do they steal Ukrainians houses and invite Russian natives to go live in the stolen houses in Ukraine?

          The answer to all of those questions is no. If you think it’s yes you need to demonstrate it, saying “they look just like Nazis” without drawing any actual parallels between them is no better than saying “anyone I don’t like is a Nazi”.

          The fact that all of russia’s puppet state demanded to join NATO (BTW: you cannot be invited it only works by writing an official demand to join and approval by all member state), is a revealing fact.

          If a NATO country can somehow influence the elections and public opinion on NATO in those so called “Russian puppets”, which they very much can, they can make sure to have pro-NATO politicians in power who will demand a NATO membership, that way they effectively force the country to join while making it look like it was voluntary.

          As we saw in Ukraine, Russia does not need any reason to invade a sovereign nation (their reason for invading looking also stangely like german justification for poland invasion)

          “Russia does not need any reason to invade[…] their reason for invading looking also stangely like…”

          Look, if you’re gonna spew bullshit, can’t you at least keep it strait and somewhat coherent?

          Putin didn’t just wake up and decide he was feeling like invading something that day, whether you like it or not they had actual reasons to do it and the fact that you or I may or may not think those reasons are not legitimate does not matter since neither you nor I have a say in the Kremlin.

          Also, once again you say “they look like Nazis” without showing why you think they look like Nazis. How are their reasons similar? Russia’s stated reasons for invading are to prevent all of their western frontier neighbors to become part of a military alliance they deem aggressive to them and to stop the killing of ethnic Russians in the Donbas and Luhansk regions and overthrow the current far right government of Ukraine, how is that similar to the Nazi’s excuses to invade Poland?

          The countless horrors of torture, rape, murder and brainwashing by the russian state, seems to prove their reasoning right.

          [citation needed]

          That wouldn’t be the first time the west has falsely accused an enemy of those things so I’m really gonna need a source for that.

          I do not claim that the west is perfect, with the actions of the united states and other in recent times, but claiming that russia or china have clean hands would be outright hypocritical.

          You claim that the west is systematically better than Russia, China and other countries that the west considers rivals or enemy (funny coincidence that those are all countries the west don’t like isn’t it) and when we demonstrate to you that this is bullshit since the west has literally done almost every single thing you accuse China, Russia, etc of, often in worst and more than once, you go “Ha but I think the west is bad too” so that you can continue pretending to be objective even after we expose you massive pro-west bias.

          Thanks to the free press, the western world made their population aware of this wrong actions and helped steer them in the right direction.

          The press in the west is not free, it’s the private property of a handful of billionaires who, since they are their private properties, have complete control over what is or is not published in their outlets. I’d even say that given that the capitalists are the ruling class in the west, privately owned medias are really state owned medias with extra steps.

          Not to mention the fact that western outlet are often in contact with organs of western governments, most notoriously with the CIA, who often dictate what the outlets should publish.

          Just look at how they report on the genocide of Palestinians, does that look like fair and unbiased reporting to you? Those that look free pro Israel bias?

          • я не из калининграда@lemmy.ml
            13·
            9 months ago

            great analysis, comrade. i would like to point out though, that racist pseudoscience didnt start with the us, but rather that they were sadly able to inherit a quite rich tradition of this vile bullshit, ideas that were previously pushed by british intelligentsia. the idea of concentration camps was also arguably pioneered in america with the native american reservations.

        • я не из калининграда@lemmy.ml
          148·
          9 months ago

          im sorry to tell you that, but your reasoning is wrong form the first sentence to the last and contains a lot of lies and cia propaganda, which makes it a quite impressive piece of liberalism. lets examine.

          already your first statement is wrong, due to the fact that only through studying the history of a particular regime you can begin to make sense of its structure and motivations in accordance with historical and dialectical materialism. it is obvious to anyone, that the us stood for oppression, subjugation and ethnic cleansing from its very inception and hasnt stopped ever since, with them even commiting genocide right now in gaza. with western europe nowadays being nothing more than a satellite of the us, you also mention china and russia, neither of whom are imperialist, since their capitalist economies arent yet in the late stages that make imperialist ambitions possible and necessary. moreover both have historically been victims of western imperialism, and while russia had in fact an imperialist phase until 1917, it never even came close to the atrocities commited by the west.

          and no, anti-imperialists like me dont want “revenge”, but justice. such justice can only be achieved by dismantling the illegal settler colony named usa and finally freeing the prison house of nations.

          in your second point, you, despite dismissing the study of history previously, try to make references to historical happenings. your only problem is, that you are wrong and end up with nothing but regurgitated cia propaganda, since russia isnt mirroring nazi germany in any way, quite the opposite. the only reason one like you could make such a statement is if you dont know how the nazis operated and who their supporters were. russia is being surrounded and attacked by fascist nato forces, as well as their neonazi proxies, since decades and has shown an incredible amount of restraint in that situation, not only referring from military measures for the longest time, but even trying to cooperate with western powers. the smo is just russia finally making a stand for itself, something that imho should have been done much sooner.

          you then compare русский мир to the german lebensraum, concepts that are also entirely unrelated. the german nazi concept is simply a more modern version of the american manifest destiny, an incredibly vile genocidal ideology, that btw also inspired the current zionist colonial project, with the only difference between the two being that the older example succeeded. the russian one meanwhile, while of course being a nationalist concept worthy of criticism, only calls for a sphere of russian cultural and political influence, something that in comparison is rather harmless.

          your later notions of alleged russian puppet states demanding to join nato, as well of the ukraine being sovereign after 2014 and most hilariously the west having some semblance of free press that is somehow enlightening the people just look like idealist phantasies with absolutely no ground in reality to me, with me honestly shocked how people are still believing such things after things like operation aerodynamic and operation mockingbird became public information.

          the last thing i would like to point out to you is that demands for taiwanese independence should only come from indigenous taiwanese people, not immigrated han chinese who since then unjustly assumed the taiwanese cultural identity. incidentally the indigenous population is one of the core demographics among supporters of reunification with the prc.

          and no, i dont claim russia and the prc to be perfect, but they are still obviously preferable over the greatest enemy of mankind that is western imperialism.

          • alpaga1@lemmy.ml
            22·
            9 months ago

            This is just sad to hear and i don’t think arguing on the internet is gonna bring is anywhere. I don’t understand where your US fantasy and obsession comes from, siting cases that are from the 50’ and not really related to your point. It sounds like desperate fearmongering by an authoritarian state to stay relevant in front of its population. Ironically, the aggressive actions of russia is what push EU countries away closer to the US as it doesnt leave us any other choice. Russia was a major trading partner and vital to european economies. Ukraine biggest allies after all are from eastern europe(ex russian colonies), the evil imperialist that wants to destroy russia doesnt seem that interested in the conflict as this thread is about. You can it how you want and replace revenge with justice but committing atrocities on your neighbor, is not a productive way for justice. Just shows some imperialistic bloodlust eastern european countries are wary off. Please dont forget that eastern europe are also people with their own minds and that the only thing we want is peace we would love to be closer to russia but its not the path your leaders are willing to go to. Instead creating divisions with whatever usa narrative they are pushing. Have a conflict with the us if thats what you want but please let us be and dont involve us in that.

            I will mention gaza as it is so often used as an argument, but the evil controlled press puppet of the CIA is actually quite outraged by the actions of israel, followed by its population having more and more Europeans government taking an in increasingly harder stance, politics are slow but have to follow the heart of the population at some point. Dont forget that russians are the dominant ethnic group in israel since you love talking about historical points. We have our hands quite full with our issues here but seems like people cant stop to ask for our intervention abroad. I would like to remind that eu countries never vetoed anything, rather abstained and stayed out of the conflict as the world has shown us with ukraine that they dont want to intervene in foreign conflict.

            Just a point i find facinating, Its quite cute how you describe rusky mir, just think for a second how do you think a average german citizen would have described lebensraum in their times? Try to mature the world is not as black and white as you wish it was. I would like to remind you that the russian leaders called ukraine as a non state that should be eradicated, which i find quite at odd with your ‘pacific description’

  • Alsjemenou@lemy.nlNederlands
    10125·
    9 months ago

    People in this thread clearly don’t understand what the implications are. There is a very clear danger of war on the European continent that will involve NATO and by proxy the US. Aid for Ukraine is the absolute cheapest option. Europe is not going to just let Ukraine fall and will ramp up their involvement. We already have France willing to send troops.

    • LarkinDePark@lemmygrad.ml
      317·
      9 months ago

      You don’t understand that the only danger of further war is again from US/NATO. Europe is going to let Ukraine fall because it has no choice. France is a laughing stock. Even what they threatened to send could do nothing.

      In the case of shells, the problem isn’t money, it’s lack of production capacity. Even the mighty USA, owner of the largest military-industrial complex in the world, can only produce 28,000 rounds of 155mm per month – less than 10pc of what Ukraine needs – and this with its factories on 24-hour operation.

      Comment from the Torygrapgh readership:

    • index@sh.itjust.works
      2527·
      9 months ago

      Aid for Ukraine is the absolute cheapest option

      One who consider a proxy war where thousand people die and a country get destroyed the “cheapest option” tells you how much they are in bad faith. For politicians your life is indeed cheap and something they can trash away for profits

      • Ebber@lemmings.world
        155·
        9 months ago

        So no aid to Ukraine and show Russia that it can indeed start wars where thousands die and destroy countries, without negative consequences?

        • index@sh.itjust.works
          6·
          9 months ago

          As long as it doesn’t mess up with their business no government in the world care if russia starts a war. Where’s the aid to gaza as a genocide is happening at the hands of israel? War is a business and politicians wants more of it

        • Woozythebear@lemmy.world
          87·
          9 months ago

          Where are the negative consequences for America? Why can America invade any country it wants and kill hundreds of thousands of innocent women and children but for some reason when Russia does it we have to show them they aren’t allowed?

          Only America and its allies can start wars and commit genocides?

          • Ebber@lemmings.world
            106·
            9 months ago

            I didn’t condone the USA’s actions, and it’s clear from your comment that you assume I would. It’s clear to me who is the aggressor in this conflict between Ukraine and Russia, and it’s not Ukraine.

            Don’t let your disdain for one imperialist push you over to another.

          • ZILtoid1991@lemmy.world
            77·
            9 months ago

            Classic whataboutism.

            Because the US does interventionism, fund far-right politicians, etc., Russia (and China) can do as such, and even more. At least the US doesn’t want to “regain it’s old lost territories”.

              • NauticalNoodle@lemmy.ml
                11·
                8 months ago

                In fairness it’s a solid criticism considering there’s two kinds of comparisons that aren’t made on equal footing. To argue U.S.'s kind of intervention is the same as the Russias, would be more appropriate to consider Russia’s pre 2014 involvement in Ukraine. If you want to compare full-scale military operations then ZILtoid makes a good point. We haven’t tried to annex another country in a long time.

      • Croquette@sh.itjust.works
        122·
        9 months ago

        This is a delicate situation. If a NATO country is sending troops to Ukraine, it will escalate the war into a full blown world war.

        We know what happened in both world wars, so there is no good answers here.

          • GreenSkree@lemmy.world
            105·
            9 months ago

            Generally, I’d agree with that sentiment. However, what path forward would provide the best way out of the situation and discourage further conflict in the region?

            When we look at the lead up to WW2, we see a build-up of tension by Germany and attempted appeasement by the other major powers in an effort to avoid another breakout of war in Europe, only a few decades after the first great war ravaged these nations.

            Notable events:

            • Remilitarization of the Rhineland (Mar 1936) – this was a clear power move and violation of the Treaty of Versailles that ended WW1. With no real reaction from the France/Britain, this was a clear indication to Hitler he could continue to push things much further.
            • Anschluss (Annexation of Austria, Mar 1938) - Germany was prepared to take Austria by force, but managed to do so with only the threat of violence. This was also against the Treaty of Versailles and also had no real reaction from the Allied powers.
            • Sudetenland conquest (Sept 1938) - Germany pressures Czechoslovakia for pieces of it’s territory that border Germany. British PM finally gets involved, allowing the exchange of territory for a promise of peace. This is the famous " Peace for our time declaration.
            • Annexation of territory from Lithuania (Mar 1939) - Lithuania pressed to give up territory under threat of war.
            • Czech/Slovokia split and occupation/control (Mar 1939) - Under further pressure and threat of invasion, Czechoslovakia split and both come under German control.
            • Invasion of Poland by Germany and USSR (Sept 1939) - First open conflict. France and Britain declare war on Germany, roughly a year after the “Peace for our time” negotiations/declaration that clearly made a difference!

            As you can see, in the build-up to WW2, the European powers that opposed German expansion sought alternatives. They even allowed Germany to push its weight around on its neighbors, taking territory from others, and consolidating power. By the time the great powers were forced into conflict by open war in Poland, they were no longer in a position to hope to control Germany at all, doubly so with their apparent new cooperation with the USSR.

            Knowing what happened, it’s easy to see that any intervention by France and/or Britain, whether it sparked violence or not, in the early days of German aggression would have almost certainly led to a less powerful Germany, perhaps one that could not have taken over most of Europe so easily.

            I think the key take away from all of this is that, modern nations that have a desire for conquest are a danger to all. They are not to be believed, they should not be appeased, they should not be rewarded. Any violence against free nations should be resisted, supported by all free nations, but without escalation to full-blown nuclear war.

            The danger of washing our hands of the conflict and saying something like, “Violence bad. End the war. They can have Ukraine/Donetsk/whatever.” is that Russia won’t stop there. They’ll get bigger, stronger, and move on to the next target when they’re ready.

            The horrible part about all of this is that the apparent best way to keep long-term violence down is to continue the fighting now. The longer the conflict continues, and the more humiliated Russia becomes, the less likely Russia will chose to do a similar invasion in the future.

            • index@sh.itjust.works
              46·
              9 months ago

              Generally, I’d agree with that sentiment. However, what path forward would provide the best way out of the situation and discourage further conflict in the region?

              Stopping the war industry and ceasing all sort of imperialistic activities, even on one side alone will put at end on most conflicts but every ruler is in for more wealth and power, they don’t want to stop. This does not mean that because someone is doing it everyone has to follow suit, it literally means that every corrupted politician and their government seek war.

              If there’s anything to be extrapolated from history is that ramping up for war and fueling authoritarian regimes brings you exactly war and dictatorships.

              Any violence against free nations should be resisted

              So do you agree that palestine should have the rights to defend themself against israel?

              The danger of washing our hands

              If there’s anyone washing their hands is politicians drinking champagne in dubai next to russian yachts. The same politicians that send people money to ukraine goverement.

              • GreenSkree@lemmy.world
                1·
                8 months ago

                Stopping the war industry and ceasing all sort of imperialistic activities, even on one side alone will put at end on most conflicts but every ruler is in for more wealth and power, they don’t want to stop. This does not mean that because someone is doing it everyone has to follow suit, it literally means that every corrupted politician and their government seek war.

                I think this is overly naive and simplistic.

                So do you agree that palestine should have the rights to defend themself against israel?

                (I’m not as well versed in this conflict, but a few thoughts from my perspective)

                The situation and power dynamics are quite different there. I don’t have any easy answer unfortunately.

                • Palestine doesn’t have a conventional army or a means to fight Israel the same way Ukraine is fighting Russia.
                • Israel’s reaction and occupation of Gaza Strip is horrible.
                • Historically, Israel’s treatment of Palestinian people has been completely unacceptable.
                • Hamas’ actions have been awful, both historically and with the first attack in October where they started this conflict. Their attacks routinely target civilians, which is unacceptable.

                So, if there are people living in Palestine who want to fight the occupiers, that perspective makes sense to me. So, at the most basic level, yes – I think they should be able to defend themselves. However, Hamas historically seems prioritized only in hurting Israel, and their actions routinely hurt Palestine in a number of ways. Plus, supporting terrorist organizations (like Hamas) with arms/training/etc has worked out poorly for the US in the past.

                So, unfortunately, I think there are no “good guys” here (besides the civilians caught up in this who want peace). I think both Israel and Hamas steered into this conflict when alternative course of actions existed. Conflict between these groups has been ongoing for decades and has no good or simple solution.

          • Croquette@sh.itjust.works
            4·
            9 months ago

            Yeah, but Russia invaded Ukraine. So what should be done now.

            If left to their own devices, Ukraine would be annexed to Russia and surrounding countries would be next. The casualties would probably be less here (not guaranteed) and the quality of life of the Ukrainians would drastically degrade.

            If NATO sends boots on the ground, then it becomes a full blown world war with warring countries having lots of nukes. The casualties are enormous with a potential doomsday scenario.

            Right now, NATO finance a proxy war. Ukrainians fight back and hard to shut out Russians. They need the tech and financing to do so. If they don’t have it, Russia takes over and we go back to the first scenario. Casualties are high.

            There is no good ending where Russia negotiate peace and return home. War fucking sucks, and there is no good answer.

            • index@sh.itjust.works
              31·
              9 months ago

              Yeah, but Russia invaded Ukraine. So what should be done now.

              What about putting sanction on china for providing russia weapons or on emirates and turkey for allowing russian to just chill there and bypass restrictions?

              If left to their own devices, Ukraine would be annexed to Russia and surrounding countries would be next.

              Where do you got this from? Is Israel planning to invade the whole middle east after they invaded gaza?

              the quality of life of the Ukrainians would drastically degrade.

              Would it actually? Ukraine turned into an authoritatian regime under martial law where no man between 18 and 60 can leave the country. There’s probably many brave ukranians fighting for freedom but it’s the ukranian government getting money and weapons.

              The casualties are already high and the country is getting destroyed, it’s just not happening in your garden

      • Alsjemenou@lemy.nlNederlands
        22·
        9 months ago

        I’m not talking about just money. Of course in current capitalist society we analyse through the lens of finances. But obviously the cost of war includes the loss of human life. And of course some people will manage to profit financially from war. This isn’t a revolutionary thought.

        What I mean is that due to the obligation of being a NATO member, there is no way around having to join war in the EU. Actual boots on the ground, full blown, war machine goes choo-choo war. That costs many hundreds or even thousands of American lives. And yes, billions a day.

        If you don’t want that, then having Putin lose in Ukraine in key. It’s key because it will diminish his political backing in Russia.

        • index@sh.itjust.works
          32·
          9 months ago

          That costs many hundreds or even thousands of American lives.

          Better dispose of the ukrainians instead

  • Yor [she/her]@hexbear.netEnglish
    604·
    9 months ago

    Without the support of Congress, it will be “difficult” for Ukraine to win, “even to stay,” Zelenskyy said in a video meeting with fundraising supporters, including Mark Hamill and billionaire Richard Branson.

    Nightmare blunt rotation

    Anyway, wow! You mean every time Russia was said to be slowing down or taking unsustainable levels of casualties wasn’t entirely true? Wow! surprised-pika

    • 420stalin69 [he/him]@hexbear.netEnglish
      357·
      9 months ago

      I think the weakness of Ukraine is also narrative.

      Whatever narrative they push, it’s completely unrelated to the truth.

      When they wanted western sympathy and when the western funds were rolling, it was the plucky tractor brigade killing Russians at $1.40 a kill.

      Now that they aren’t getting another aid package, the front lines are about to collapse and Russia will be in Warsaw by summer.

      It’s all bullshit. As in it’s unrelated to the truth. The truth has no relationship to what Zelenskyy says.

      The fact Ukraine is starting to push an imminent collapse narrative is a key factor in me believing collapse is not in fact imminent.

      • dragonfly4933@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
        64·
        9 months ago

        You are right, you can’t use only information Ukraine or Russia provides. But it probably is the case that Ukraine was stomping Russia for pennies on the dollar earlier in the war. However, Russia is not a static force. They learn and change their tactics, and Russia spends more resources now than they did earlier.

        It would be a grave mistake to stop aid to Ukraine while they are still willing and able to fight.

        • davel [he/him]@lemmy.mlEnglish
          284·
          9 months ago

          It would be a grave mistake to stop aid to Ukraine while they are still willing and able to fight.

          While who is still willing to fight? The conscripted who are forced to fight or the neonazis who volunteered to fight?

        • 420stalin69 [he/him]@hexbear.netEnglish
          264·
          9 months ago

          But it probably is the case that Ukraine was stomping Russia for pennies on the dollar earlier in the war.

          When the aid was flowing the narrative was that this was a “good investment” which is why they sold you with this “pennies on the dollar” angle.

          Put down the slava pipe and have a look at what the cost basis is for western military gear vs Russian stuff. It’s rarely better than 5:1 even for basic stuff like shells and advanced stuff runs at around 10:1. The idea that it was “pennies on the dollar” is crazy shit.

          It’s all narrative. It doesn’t have a relationship to facts on the ground. It’s a sales pitch.

          • spidermanchild@sh.itjust.works
            56·
            9 months ago

            “Pennies on the dollar” refers more to the fact that we have mostly sent old equipment that’s already paid for and would otherwise never see the light of day, while also avoiding the use of any US/NATO manpower to massively undermine an adversary. It’s a great deal, i.e. pennies on the dollar.

            I guess it’s edifer to just call everything a “narrative” though than try and understand current events.

            • Fidel_Cashflow@lemmy.ml
              114·
              9 months ago

              It’s a great deal if you’re a monster who doesn’t pay any mind to the broken Ukrainian bodies littering the trenches for the past few years. More conscripts for the meat grinder, it’s cost-effective! Fucking ghouls, I swear.

              • spidermanchild@sh.itjust.works
                59·
                9 months ago

                And who’s to blame here? Have you considered blaming the invading force, or does it have to be the west for your sensibilities? Everything would be great if we all just rolled over when invaders arrive at the gates!

        • Zuzak [fae/faer, she/her]@hexbear.netEnglish
          221·
          9 months ago

          pennies on the dollar

          Psychopathic framing. “Look how efficiently we’re killing people!”

          Also great example of conflating states with people. Maybe Ukraine still wants to fight, but Ukrainians are being conscripted against their will. In the same way, wearing Russia down may serve the interests of the US government, but it certainly doesn’t benefit the American people in any way. The best thing for the Ukrainian people would be to stop the killing at any cost, even if it meant territorial concessions. They could’ve saved countless lives if they’d done this from the start, and eventually that’s what’s going to happen anyway, but unfortunately countless people have died and countless more will before the ruling class decides to stop forcing the poor into the meat grinder.

          How the fuck is my life supposed to be better because of dead Russian soldiers?

          • stringere@leminal.space
            1·
            9 months ago

            Hey that’s a nice home you have. We’re moving in. You can fight me for it but it will be long and bloody. Probably best you just move out and concede it to me.

        • PosadistInevitablity [he/him]@hexbear.netEnglish
          102·
          9 months ago

          The West has spent many times Russias military budget and hundreds of thousands of soldiers only to lose the war.

          Russia will likely gain several states worth of land.

          Unsure how this is a “good deal”, even in the most psychopathic framing possible. I’d think that would mean Russia is getting the good deal in that case? They have spent far less and gained actual winnings.

          • Halosheep@lemm.ee
            31·
            9 months ago

            “The west has spent many times Russia’s military budget” Source?

    • caveman@lemmy.ml
      72·
      9 months ago

      That was propaganda. Without it people would say “why wasting money if they will lose anyway?”

  • Zuzak [fae/faer, she/her]@hexbear.netEnglish
    7116·
    9 months ago

    NATO is seeking to take control of decision-making powers on future aid packages — normally led by the US — in an effort to limit the impact of a potential second Donald Trump presidency on the ongoing conflict.

    This is wild. It’s bad enough that the US president has the power to start wars wherever he wants with no congressional approval. But now they’re trying to make it so that the only people with the authority to withdraw from a conflict are unelected NATO officials accountable to no one.

    Dronies will support this, because they love endless war across the globe and want to remove any potential for popular support to achieve peace.

  • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.ml
    7632·
    9 months ago

    I was wondering how the media was going to explain the collapse in Ukraine when it finally becomes impossible to hide it, and now we know. The whole thing is going to be blamed on republicans holding up money in congress, as if pouring another 61 billion after all the untold billions that were already poured into this was going to make any difference. The fact that people genuinely believe this is frankly depressing. It shows just how utterly credulous and mentally deficient western public is.

  • unreasonabro@lemmy.world
    455·
    9 months ago

    nice job america, now in addition to everything else, you’ve lost a war you weren’t even fighting in. Fuck yeah!

    • rbesfe@lemmy.ca
      419·
      9 months ago

      Are you implying Ukraine has lost the war? That’s just not true, they still hold territory that according to Putin is part of Russia

          • Karyoplasma@discuss.tchncs.de
            21·
            9 months ago

            Yes, “you have lost” is present perfect and describes that the loss occurred at some unspecified point in time before. It can also describe a loss which effects can still be felt in the present.

            The implication is that OP is convinced that Ukraine has no chance of holding their lines, as you correctly pointed out earlier.