The description of how utopians see critics (“profoundly immoral people who block the path to utopia, threatening to impede the march toward paradise, arguably the greatest moral crime one could commit”) is extremely similar to the way scientologists see their critics and ex-members. I suppose at least TESCREALists have a slightly higher measure of independence than scientologists and are thus less likely to be convinced to poison a critic’s dog or send them threatening letters.
Yeah it is the classic cult characteristic. Synanon members putting a snake in someone’s letterbox is another example. Also Hare Krishnas, MOVE, etc etc.
…no?!? ETA: you could get the “learning small skills” benefit this LessWrongie claims to have gotten by, I dunno, learning how to play chess. Without having to enter a Scientology org. And they wanted to do more courses with the Scientology public speaking course???
It’s not a cult folks, it’s definitely not a cult…
In secondary school we were doing a unit on religion and one day when the teacher was out we watched a documentary about Jonestown, pretty horrible. Ended with the Jonestown tapes. It became clear at the end that most of the other girls in my class had never heard of Jonestown and were really shocked by how it all ended. I don’t know if I can go back and look at it all again. Interesting though if only for their relationship to SF politics.
that’s a great idea! in the meantime before we write that post, this archived reddit thread has some details on how to do things here from mastodon. in brief, I think starting a new toot, tagging @SneerClub@awful.systems, following that with the post title, inserting two newlines (aka start a new paragraph), then writing the post body and posting that should work. keep in mind that markdown probably won’t make the trip over!
The one issue I have is that “what if some are their beliefs turn out to be real”. How would it change things if Scientologists get a 2 way communication device, say they found it buried in Hubbard’s backyard or whatever and it appears to be non human technology - and are able to talk to an entity who claims it is Xenu. Doesn’t mean their cult religion is right but say the entity is obviously nonhuman, it rattles off the method to build devices current science knows no method to build and other people build the devices and they work and YOU can pay $480 a year and get FTL walkie talkies or some shit sent to your door. How does that change your beliefs?
What? I was describing how cults/high-control groups react to criticism. I wasn’t trying to assess how accurate their beliefs are. Cults rely on having some beliefs which reasonable people might agree with. Those are the beliefs they present to the public. Cult literature often sounds plausible or benign even if it’s not factually accurate.
Before there was greater awareness of what cults are and how they work, it wasn’t uncommon for early press about cult groups to conclude that while some of the cult’s beliefs were strange, they had good values and were doing good things for their communities so they were probably harmless. It was only later that stories begin to emerge about the extreme levels of control that cults were exercising over their members, how that control led to the exploitation and abuse of members, and how limited and transactional their “good works” were.
If a group with that model of control and exploitation claimed to have access to a source of genuinely new and scientifically significant knowledge, they are the worst people to be in control of it, because:
a) Cults keep back the larger part of their beliefs from the public in order to extract as much in money, volunteer time and other resources from their members. If a cult did have a direct line to Xenu, it would be directly in their interests to strictly limit how much other people can know about Xenu without paying exorbitant fees and submitting to cult authority.
b) Cults are run by people whose ethics are compromised. Cult leaders believe above all else in their right to power and/or wealth and everything else including the health and safety of others comes second. They bully and indoctrinate their subordinates until cult members believe that there is no good and bad so much as there are things that are good for the cult and things that are bad for the cult. If people with such compromised ethics gain access to Xenu’s special information (why are we assuming Xenu will be wise and helpful anyway? In Scientology mythos, Xenu is evil. And also dead.) they will use it to improve the position of the cult and impose their beliefs on as many people as possible.
c) due to the above mentioned, it will be extremely difficult for non-members to assess the accuracy of information provided by the cult.
while it’s true that if my dick had wings, it would be a magical flying unicorn pony, so far this hasn’t been shown to be the case at all, so i’m not putting effort into the hypothetical
The description of how utopians see critics (“profoundly immoral people who block the path to utopia, threatening to impede the march toward paradise, arguably the greatest moral crime one could commit”) is extremely similar to the way scientologists see their critics and ex-members. I suppose at least TESCREALists have a slightly higher measure of independence than scientologists and are thus less likely to be convinced to poison a critic’s dog or send them threatening letters.
Not just Scientology; Peoples Temple, Aum, or Shining Path all apply too.
Edit: they also have more money and political influence at this point then the above. this isn’t good imo.
Yeah it is the classic cult characteristic. Synanon members putting a snake in someone’s letterbox is another example. Also Hare Krishnas, MOVE, etc etc.
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…no?!? ETA: you could get the “learning small skills” benefit this LessWrongie claims to have gotten by, I dunno, learning how to play chess. Without having to enter a Scientology org. And they wanted to do more courses with the Scientology public speaking course???
It’s not a cult folks, it’s definitely not a cult…
I know journos are looking again, finally, but like Peoples Temple was taken down that way.
(also I really recommend reading Raven or the PBS documentary on Jonestown).
In secondary school we were doing a unit on religion and one day when the teacher was out we watched a documentary about Jonestown, pretty horrible. Ended with the Jonestown tapes. It became clear at the end that most of the other girls in my class had never heard of Jonestown and were really shocked by how it all ended. I don’t know if I can go back and look at it all again. Interesting though if only for their relationship to SF politics.
Yeah, that part was very interesting.
oh gawd your turn to repost that LW classic
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@self perhaps we need a “how to post from mastodon” guide
it’s possible but you have to do particular things I think?
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that’s a great idea! in the meantime before we write that post, this archived reddit thread has some details on how to do things here from mastodon. in brief, I think starting a new toot, tagging @SneerClub@awful.systems, following that with the post title, inserting two newlines (aka start a new paragraph), then writing the post body and posting that should work. keep in mind that markdown probably won’t make the trip over!
The one issue I have is that “what if some are their beliefs turn out to be real”. How would it change things if Scientologists get a 2 way communication device, say they found it buried in Hubbard’s backyard or whatever and it appears to be non human technology - and are able to talk to an entity who claims it is Xenu. Doesn’t mean their cult religion is right but say the entity is obviously nonhuman, it rattles off the method to build devices current science knows no method to build and other people build the devices and they work and YOU can pay $480 a year and get FTL walkie talkies or some shit sent to your door. How does that change your beliefs?
What? I was describing how cults/high-control groups react to criticism. I wasn’t trying to assess how accurate their beliefs are. Cults rely on having some beliefs which reasonable people might agree with. Those are the beliefs they present to the public. Cult literature often sounds plausible or benign even if it’s not factually accurate.
Before there was greater awareness of what cults are and how they work, it wasn’t uncommon for early press about cult groups to conclude that while some of the cult’s beliefs were strange, they had good values and were doing good things for their communities so they were probably harmless. It was only later that stories begin to emerge about the extreme levels of control that cults were exercising over their members, how that control led to the exploitation and abuse of members, and how limited and transactional their “good works” were.
If a group with that model of control and exploitation claimed to have access to a source of genuinely new and scientifically significant knowledge, they are the worst people to be in control of it, because: a) Cults keep back the larger part of their beliefs from the public in order to extract as much in money, volunteer time and other resources from their members. If a cult did have a direct line to Xenu, it would be directly in their interests to strictly limit how much other people can know about Xenu without paying exorbitant fees and submitting to cult authority. b) Cults are run by people whose ethics are compromised. Cult leaders believe above all else in their right to power and/or wealth and everything else including the health and safety of others comes second. They bully and indoctrinate their subordinates until cult members believe that there is no good and bad so much as there are things that are good for the cult and things that are bad for the cult. If people with such compromised ethics gain access to Xenu’s special information (why are we assuming Xenu will be wise and helpful anyway? In Scientology mythos, Xenu is evil. And also dead.) they will use it to improve the position of the cult and impose their beliefs on as many people as possible. c) due to the above mentioned, it will be extremely difficult for non-members to assess the accuracy of information provided by the cult.
while it’s true that if my dick had wings, it would be a magical flying unicorn pony, so far this hasn’t been shown to be the case at all, so i’m not putting effort into the hypothetical
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we can’t possibly know given that this is past the Singularity, but I’m sure Eliezer has 20,000 words on the subject just ready to roll