Hey, if tankies were gonna vote for Biden to thwart trump, we wouldn’t have a problem. It’s that most that I’ve seen explicitly say they won’t. And they advocate that people shouldn’t. So - i don’t get it.
Deliberate ignorance, accelerationist “if we let the fascists win it’ll totally result in a communist revolution, trust me bro, you definitely won’t be one of the thousands whose bones are used for the foundation” idiocy, or actual fascists trying to depress left turnout. Take your pick.
Communism isn’t about identity and moral superiority. It is about making strategic decisions that enable the ultimate revolution of the working class to do away with capitalism, that includes tactical, cynical decisions at times. Some communists tried to do the whole “never voting on principle” or “only voting for the perfect fringe candidate” bit already, so we know how that turns out - sectarianism removed from class, and underestimating the enemy. Think of how some communists thought if Hitler got elected, Germany would finally have a revolution - turns out, no, it just led to the last bit of the mask of humanity to fall off capital and them being killed in the most brutal fashion. That mask of humanity may be a lie and indeed just a mask, but it has real effects, and the inhumanity can always get worse.
The big project in these times of reactionary drift globally is to build as much organised proletarian power as is possible - catch and organise those that fall from the middle class, learn how to use guns and fly drones, learn how to coordinate as a movement, learn how to support each other in day-to-day life, gain some class consciousness. While those that lack consciousness and still hold dreams of escaping their proletarisation within capitalism enable fascism, as long as they can cling to the ideological dream of the wealth of the past without realising the very system that enabled the old wealth already had the crises of today within it.
Thinking its the same to organise all that under a senile proto-fascist like Biden compared to a full-blown fascist like Trump and his allies is genuinely foolish. It reads like an utopian socialist dream about moral fortitude and self-serving identity instead of trying everything that can materially advance the working class and its consciousness.
Just want to say that it’s incredibly refreshing to read a self-described communist calling out the utter lack of evidence supporting accelerationism/anti-electoralism as a way to achieve positive societal change. As a kinda anarcho-syndicalist (there are dozens of us!) that believes strongly in data-informed decision-making, it feels good to see philosophical allies in the wild and bolsters my hope that humanity will eventually be able to achieve greater levels of equity and equality.
Thank you for the kind words. Yeah, accelerationism is a bit of ideological nonsense to me, I think capitalism is doing fine on its own to reach the ultimate conclusion of its dynamics. I’m admittedly not as optimistic when it comes to positive change through electoralism, to me, it is much more about postponing negative change. But it is a tool in the toolkit - as you identify as an anarcho-syndicalist, one example would be how the Spanish anarchists participated in elections to explicitly get the huge amount of political prisoners freed in the preludes to the Spanish Civil War, a conscious decision where they, as an organised group, pressured the republican forces to give in to their demands. That’s also an example of where not voting can be a valid tactic - if you actually have a large, organised group of people that is able to use it as a means to pressure concrete government actions.
Granted, I am too disillusioned to be an anarchist. I worked within anarchist groups in the past and my personal experience has been, that they are maybe a bit too idealistic and loyal to principles instead of practicality. Finding consensus, in my experience, led to a whole slew of psychological dynamics within the discussions. Stuff like people feeling pressured to give up their own position, later regretting it, charismatic “leaders” de-facto still taking over discussions, and it being very vulnerable to inducing gridlock on purpose by bad-faith actors. Also, the idea of changing the minds of a vast amount of the population, instead of being willing to take power if necessary, is something I encountered a lot, and I simply don’t agree with, especially in light of how the present and future look.
That all being said, in my experience anarchists are at least more open to study and learn with a proper, reflective mind, while many MLs I met treat their own position as a holy, unshakable truth, which in my opinion, goes against everything the Marxist project has been about. They unironically talk about scientific Marxism, while treating it as a religion, it can be quite tiring in my opinion.
No matter what side we are on when it comes to how we see ourselves - good luck to you too, and most of all, good luck to all proletarians worldwide. We are all gonna need it in the decades to come.
I’m admittedly not as optimistic when it comes to positive change through electoralism, to me, it is much more about postponing negative change. But it is a tool in the toolkit
Exactly. I, myself, do not think that electoralism is the only tool needed for positive change. It is like a gauze pad in a first aid kit. It is primarily used for treating wounds and trying to staunch bleeding. There are a lot of other tools available, some of them very much overlooked. Yes, there’s direct action and protests but there’s also community building, education, and kindness. The latter three, I find, are frequently overlooked, due to the lack of immediate return.
Spanish anarchists participated in elections to explicitly get the huge amount of political prisoners freed in the preludes to the Spanish Civil War, a conscious decision where they, as an organised group, pressured the republican forces to give in to their demands. That’s also an example of where not voting can be a valid tactic - if you actually have a large, organised group of people that is able to use it as a means to pressure concrete government actions.
Again, a lot of agreement with you there. Context and data are critical. Without the right context (which I’m not aware of existing anywhere in the West at this time), not voting is, by the data, completely ineffectual at creating change. That’s why things like community building and interpersonal diplomacy are so vital. That’s also why there have been such concerted efforts against Leftism, intentional communities, etc for the last half-century.
Granted, I am too disillusioned to be an anarchist.
I deal with that, like I dealt with my depression; developing near-pathological optimism as a coping mechanism. Also, with radical acceptance. I know that the changes that I would like to see and world that I would like to live in is not achievable in my lifetime. Maybe if we had healthy generational power transfers but, at least in the US, that’s a bit of a pipedream and patience is required. My ideals are a “North Star” to guide my actions when attempting to make long-term changes to society (if something good can happen overnight, it can be taken away just as quickly).
I worked within anarchist groups in the past and my personal experience has been, that they are maybe a bit too idealistic and loyal to principles instead of practicality. Finding consensus, in my experience, led to a whole slew of psychological dynamics within the discussions. Stuff like people feeling pressured to give up their own position, later regretting it, charismatic “leaders” de-facto still taking over discussions, and it being very vulnerable to inducing gridlock on purpose by bad-faith actors.
This has been a huge problem over here. Both intentional bad actors and those that have the same impact due to ignorance or short-sightedness.
Also, the idea of changing the minds of a vast amount of the population, instead of being willing to take power if necessary, is something I encountered a lot, and I simply don’t agree with, especially in light of how the present and future look.
This one hits me hard too. I’m a “no first strikes” pacifist. I wasn’t always but learning about the histories of peoples that have suffered far more than most of my ancestors pushed me there. My allegiance is to humanity, not ideology. Is violence necessary to protect and defend? Sometimes, like with slavers and fascists. However, I do see a lot of people, especially online MLs, that are chomping at the bit for it, without regards to the fact that violence itself causes harm but just to the recipient, but also the perpetrator and society at large (see: Ireland and Algeria).
That all being said, in my experience anarchists are at least more open to study and learn with a proper, reflective mind, while many MLs I met treat their own position as a holy, unshakable truth, which in my opinion, goes against everything the Marxist project has been about. They unironically talk about scientific Marxism, while treating it as a religion, it can be quite tiring in my opinion.
Yes! It is good to see that others, especially a communist, have found a similar pattern of behavior. You cannot have dialectics without making everything open to analysis, including ideology and recorded history. I received a ban from an ML-moderated comm a while back by suggesting further analysis of the motivations and historical context of the Finns and the alliances formed in the wars that they fought during WW2 (maybe invading a country that has a history of centuries of repression at the hands of the Russian Empire wasn’t a good way to win over its people). Not to mention suggesting any leaders of historical communist countries or movements may not have always been in the right or had the best of intentions (they really didn’t like that). Not being able to examine and analyize the pillars of one’s ideology with any depth or criticality without being excommunicated puts it solidly in “religion” territory.
No matter what side we are on when it comes to how we see ourselves - good luck to you too, and most of all, good luck to all proletarians worldwide. We are all gonna need it in the decades to come.
The same to yourself! And absolutely, again, no matter what happens in the coming years, I wish there best of Luck to our fellow people (sure, maybe we’ll have artificial prolitarians that need our help too at some stage) and hope that we’re able to lay the foundations for a world where they have no need of Luck.
Im not even sure what was your point. Just want to say that biden is not a proto fascist, he is a fascist. And trump is another. To think theres much difference between them is the same of thinking theres difference between the shit a dog did today and the one he did yesterday
Have you ever owned a dog? Their shits can be quite different in their nastiness from day to day. Your definition of fascism seems also to be lacking and reductive, thinking an out-of-their-time neolib like Biden puts out the same kind of repression on the working class as someone like Trump (Or Franco, Pinochet, Mussolini, Hitler) and the outlines in Project 2025 will.
Things will only get worse over the next few decades, we are currently still in a phase where the privileges of welfare state capitalism break away globally, leading to proper proletarisation of the population in the advanced capitalist, imperialist nations. That induces reactionary movements politically, and every year we can buy ourselves to organise and spread class consciousness before the violent repression is turned up to 11 is valuable.
Add the climate catastrophe on the top of capitalist decay, and things will get really, really ugly in the coming decades. If the communist movement isn’t properly organised as soon as possible, there is no guarantee that can be transformed into ultimately an opportunity for change.
Their shits can be quite different in their nastiness from day to day.
Would you eat any of them? Is this one less smelly than the other enought for you to eat it?
If the communist movement isn’t properly organised as soon as possible
Good starting point: reject that genocide joe is an alternative to trump. As long as you belive the democratic-republican system is all you have, you are doomed
You are so emotionally invested in the vain idea that you, personally, are above handling dog shit that you are refusing to actually think through the problem.
I mean, I don’t know what eating it has to do with anything. Some questions are just too gross to consider? Best to purge your mind of it than think at all about strategy?
I mean, idk, one will get me killed for being trans and the other wont; seems pretty significant to me. At least relatively speaking, a bit hard to fight for the working class while Im dead, yknow?
You’re right which is why we should not vote and let the current genocide continue and add several more to the list when trump gets elected. Genocide for everyone!
Let me guess, “Something something literally anything that interacts with outsiders makes you actual Hitler something something accelerationism something something historicism something something capitalism is scientifically destined to fall like, tomorrow if you just don’t vote for anyone but CPUSA guys I swear.”
EDIT: Wait do people not know that I’m mocking tankies here?
Im not the one to decide this. Its up to a party to elaborate the decision. As far as i can see, you should have a candidate that represents working people as a class. Its this interest that should be in the center of any left wing politician. And no, identitarism is not the intesrest of the working class. That being said, no man of the system will ever represent the working class, you need an authentic option. And yes, it means a communist option inevitably, but thats another discussion (why any other political position will be insufficient in the long run). But to even think about this is absurd to most usamericans
But what are you going to specifically do come November? What specific outcome do you see if others don’t vote for Biden because he doesn’t pass your purity test? Do you see this outcome being good for the country, good for workers, or good for marginalized peoples?
Sorry if i dont express myself so well in my third language. If you think the phrasing is the important part, id suggest you talk to a baby or something, not to me
No, you used the phrased just fine, its just stupid bullshit because Biden isn’t the head of Israel and usually its bad-faith dipshits shilling that stale talking point.
No one denies Holodomor. It happened. The funny thing is you can’t fully point at it with your finger and say “it happened cause communism” but most genocides the US did can and will be pointed at with the “that’s cause capitalism”.
Of course it was horrible. Of course it should not happen again. And should not have happened. But it is not the gotcha you think it is.
Also, you’ll surely understand that Soviet Communism in that specific period is not the only type of communism that existed, right?
That is a good question. But still, not a gotcha.
Communism does not mean centrally controlled food supply. A lot of man made famines have existed in the history of mankind, yet this is the only one that gets used to demonize a socio-political system.
To be fair, im not invested in the history of Ukraine nor the Soviet Union to explain the details of what happened. Although it is possible that what you mention has a good amount of merit in the situation, never are this things so clear. I guess it was a factor, but how big, I can not tell right now.
Hey, if tankies were gonna vote for Biden to thwart trump, we wouldn’t have a problem. It’s that most that I’ve seen explicitly say they won’t. And they advocate that people shouldn’t. So - i don’t get it.
Youre right .If you vote for genocide, dont call yourself a communist. This meme is pure BS
At this point, I’m pretty sure this rhetoric is a result of deliberate ignorance about FPTP.
There’s only so many times we can explain elementary math to you people.
Deliberate ignorance, accelerationist “if we let the fascists win it’ll totally result in a communist revolution, trust me bro, you definitely won’t be one of the thousands whose bones are used for the foundation” idiocy, or actual fascists trying to depress left turnout. Take your pick.
The maybe, MAYBE, it’s time for the US to start thinking in another way of electing the government.
100%. It’s unfortunate that the “harm reduction” thing is overshadowing anyone talking about why we have to do harm reduction in the first place.
The US as a whole seems more content on treating the symptoms of FPTP than taking care of the underlying issue.
Communism isn’t about identity and moral superiority. It is about making strategic decisions that enable the ultimate revolution of the working class to do away with capitalism, that includes tactical, cynical decisions at times. Some communists tried to do the whole “never voting on principle” or “only voting for the perfect fringe candidate” bit already, so we know how that turns out - sectarianism removed from class, and underestimating the enemy. Think of how some communists thought if Hitler got elected, Germany would finally have a revolution - turns out, no, it just led to the last bit of the mask of humanity to fall off capital and them being killed in the most brutal fashion. That mask of humanity may be a lie and indeed just a mask, but it has real effects, and the inhumanity can always get worse.
The big project in these times of reactionary drift globally is to build as much organised proletarian power as is possible - catch and organise those that fall from the middle class, learn how to use guns and fly drones, learn how to coordinate as a movement, learn how to support each other in day-to-day life, gain some class consciousness. While those that lack consciousness and still hold dreams of escaping their proletarisation within capitalism enable fascism, as long as they can cling to the ideological dream of the wealth of the past without realising the very system that enabled the old wealth already had the crises of today within it.
Thinking its the same to organise all that under a senile proto-fascist like Biden compared to a full-blown fascist like Trump and his allies is genuinely foolish. It reads like an utopian socialist dream about moral fortitude and self-serving identity instead of trying everything that can materially advance the working class and its consciousness.
Just want to say that it’s incredibly refreshing to read a self-described communist calling out the utter lack of evidence supporting accelerationism/anti-electoralism as a way to achieve positive societal change. As a kinda anarcho-syndicalist (there are dozens of us!) that believes strongly in data-informed decision-making, it feels good to see philosophical allies in the wild and bolsters my hope that humanity will eventually be able to achieve greater levels of equity and equality.
Danke schön! Viel glück und alles gute!
Thank you for the kind words. Yeah, accelerationism is a bit of ideological nonsense to me, I think capitalism is doing fine on its own to reach the ultimate conclusion of its dynamics. I’m admittedly not as optimistic when it comes to positive change through electoralism, to me, it is much more about postponing negative change. But it is a tool in the toolkit - as you identify as an anarcho-syndicalist, one example would be how the Spanish anarchists participated in elections to explicitly get the huge amount of political prisoners freed in the preludes to the Spanish Civil War, a conscious decision where they, as an organised group, pressured the republican forces to give in to their demands. That’s also an example of where not voting can be a valid tactic - if you actually have a large, organised group of people that is able to use it as a means to pressure concrete government actions.
Granted, I am too disillusioned to be an anarchist. I worked within anarchist groups in the past and my personal experience has been, that they are maybe a bit too idealistic and loyal to principles instead of practicality. Finding consensus, in my experience, led to a whole slew of psychological dynamics within the discussions. Stuff like people feeling pressured to give up their own position, later regretting it, charismatic “leaders” de-facto still taking over discussions, and it being very vulnerable to inducing gridlock on purpose by bad-faith actors. Also, the idea of changing the minds of a vast amount of the population, instead of being willing to take power if necessary, is something I encountered a lot, and I simply don’t agree with, especially in light of how the present and future look.
That all being said, in my experience anarchists are at least more open to study and learn with a proper, reflective mind, while many MLs I met treat their own position as a holy, unshakable truth, which in my opinion, goes against everything the Marxist project has been about. They unironically talk about scientific Marxism, while treating it as a religion, it can be quite tiring in my opinion.
No matter what side we are on when it comes to how we see ourselves - good luck to you too, and most of all, good luck to all proletarians worldwide. We are all gonna need it in the decades to come.
Exactly. I, myself, do not think that electoralism is the only tool needed for positive change. It is like a gauze pad in a first aid kit. It is primarily used for treating wounds and trying to staunch bleeding. There are a lot of other tools available, some of them very much overlooked. Yes, there’s direct action and protests but there’s also community building, education, and kindness. The latter three, I find, are frequently overlooked, due to the lack of immediate return.
Again, a lot of agreement with you there. Context and data are critical. Without the right context (which I’m not aware of existing anywhere in the West at this time), not voting is, by the data, completely ineffectual at creating change. That’s why things like community building and interpersonal diplomacy are so vital. That’s also why there have been such concerted efforts against Leftism, intentional communities, etc for the last half-century.
I deal with that, like I dealt with my depression; developing near-pathological optimism as a coping mechanism. Also, with radical acceptance. I know that the changes that I would like to see and world that I would like to live in is not achievable in my lifetime. Maybe if we had healthy generational power transfers but, at least in the US, that’s a bit of a pipedream and patience is required. My ideals are a “North Star” to guide my actions when attempting to make long-term changes to society (if something good can happen overnight, it can be taken away just as quickly).
This has been a huge problem over here. Both intentional bad actors and those that have the same impact due to ignorance or short-sightedness.
This one hits me hard too. I’m a “no first strikes” pacifist. I wasn’t always but learning about the histories of peoples that have suffered far more than most of my ancestors pushed me there. My allegiance is to humanity, not ideology. Is violence necessary to protect and defend? Sometimes, like with slavers and fascists. However, I do see a lot of people, especially online MLs, that are chomping at the bit for it, without regards to the fact that violence itself causes harm but just to the recipient, but also the perpetrator and society at large (see: Ireland and Algeria).
Yes! It is good to see that others, especially a communist, have found a similar pattern of behavior. You cannot have dialectics without making everything open to analysis, including ideology and recorded history. I received a ban from an ML-moderated comm a while back by suggesting further analysis of the motivations and historical context of the Finns and the alliances formed in the wars that they fought during WW2 (maybe invading a country that has a history of centuries of repression at the hands of the Russian Empire wasn’t a good way to win over its people). Not to mention suggesting any leaders of historical communist countries or movements may not have always been in the right or had the best of intentions (they really didn’t like that). Not being able to examine and analyize the pillars of one’s ideology with any depth or criticality without being excommunicated puts it solidly in “religion” territory.
The same to yourself! And absolutely, again, no matter what happens in the coming years, I wish there best of Luck to our fellow people (sure, maybe we’ll have artificial prolitarians that need our help too at some stage) and hope that we’re able to lay the foundations for a world where they have no need of Luck.
Im not even sure what was your point. Just want to say that biden is not a proto fascist, he is a fascist. And trump is another. To think theres much difference between them is the same of thinking theres difference between the shit a dog did today and the one he did yesterday
Have you ever owned a dog? Their shits can be quite different in their nastiness from day to day. Your definition of fascism seems also to be lacking and reductive, thinking an out-of-their-time neolib like Biden puts out the same kind of repression on the working class as someone like Trump (Or Franco, Pinochet, Mussolini, Hitler) and the outlines in Project 2025 will.
Things will only get worse over the next few decades, we are currently still in a phase where the privileges of welfare state capitalism break away globally, leading to proper proletarisation of the population in the advanced capitalist, imperialist nations. That induces reactionary movements politically, and every year we can buy ourselves to organise and spread class consciousness before the violent repression is turned up to 11 is valuable.
Add the climate catastrophe on the top of capitalist decay, and things will get really, really ugly in the coming decades. If the communist movement isn’t properly organised as soon as possible, there is no guarantee that can be transformed into ultimately an opportunity for change.
Would you eat any of them? Is this one less smelly than the other enought for you to eat it?
Good starting point: reject that genocide joe is an alternative to trump. As long as you belive the democratic-republican system is all you have, you are doomed
I think this is really telling, actually.
You are so emotionally invested in the vain idea that you, personally, are above handling dog shit that you are refusing to actually think through the problem.
I mean, I don’t know what eating it has to do with anything. Some questions are just too gross to consider? Best to purge your mind of it than think at all about strategy?
The majority will not be convinced otherwise in a matter of five months. Thats not even a pipe dream, thats a drug trip
You do realise it’s possible to vote while also wanting and working towards a better system, right?
I mean, idk, one will get me killed for being trans and the other wont; seems pretty significant to me. At least relatively speaking, a bit hard to fight for the working class while Im dead, yknow?
You’re right which is why we should not vote and let the current genocide continue and add several more to the list when trump gets elected. Genocide for everyone!
Lesser evil always ends well
“I know, if the lesser evil is bad, let’s oppose it absolutely and help the greater evil get all the power!”
-lemmy.ml
You right, let’s let the greater evil win then
Because good is totally on the table rn
Ok I’ll bite. What would you have people do instead and how do you think that would go if they did?
Let me guess, “Something something literally anything that interacts with outsiders makes you actual Hitler something something accelerationism something something historicism something something capitalism is scientifically destined to fall like, tomorrow if you just don’t vote for anyone but CPUSA guys I swear.”
EDIT: Wait do people not know that I’m mocking tankies here?
Im not the one to decide this. Its up to a party to elaborate the decision. As far as i can see, you should have a candidate that represents working people as a class. Its this interest that should be in the center of any left wing politician. And no, identitarism is not the intesrest of the working class. That being said, no man of the system will ever represent the working class, you need an authentic option. And yes, it means a communist option inevitably, but thats another discussion (why any other political position will be insufficient in the long run). But to even think about this is absurd to most usamericans
No shit, Sherlock.
But what are you going to specifically do come November? What specific outcome do you see if others don’t vote for Biden because he doesn’t pass your purity test? Do you see this outcome being good for the country, good for workers, or good for marginalized peoples?
You just called doing a genocide “not passing a purity test” ffs i dont need to talk to you
Let me be as clear as I can: If you get your way and Biden loses DO YOU THINK TRUMP WILL DO MORE OR LESS GENOCIDE?
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Sorry if i dont express myself so well in my third language. If you think the phrasing is the important part, id suggest you talk to a baby or something, not to me
No, you used the phrased just fine, its just stupid bullshit because Biden isn’t the head of Israel and usually its bad-faith dipshits shilling that stale talking point.
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Professional anti-shiller here. These fuckers aren’t worth wasting the time on.
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You can choose between the genocide abroad, or at home. You lot read to me like you weigh Palestinian lives as more important than mine
But communists are notoriously genocidal
The only thing communist want to Genocide is inequality.
Holodomor is a real thing that happened and was as wrong as everyone thinks. You will never undo that
Bengal famine, only 10 years later. It was Churchill.
No one denies Holodomor. It happened. The funny thing is you can’t fully point at it with your finger and say “it happened cause communism” but most genocides the US did can and will be pointed at with the “that’s cause capitalism”.
Of course it was horrible. Of course it should not happen again. And should not have happened. But it is not the gotcha you think it is.
Also, you’ll surely understand that Soviet Communism in that specific period is not the only type of communism that existed, right?
How would the holodomor have been possible without a centrally controlled food supply?
That is a good question. But still, not a gotcha. Communism does not mean centrally controlled food supply. A lot of man made famines have existed in the history of mankind, yet this is the only one that gets used to demonize a socio-political system. To be fair, im not invested in the history of Ukraine nor the Soviet Union to explain the details of what happened. Although it is possible that what you mention has a good amount of merit in the situation, never are this things so clear. I guess it was a factor, but how big, I can not tell right now.
Haha sure