If anything can be masculine, then what does it mean to be masculine? I’m all for call yourself whatever you want, be how you want to be; but a certain logical consistency would be nice. If there are no differences between genders, that’s great, but then what’s the meaning of being trans or not?
On top of the answers you got there is a problem of semantics. “Feminine” can mean very different things in different contexts once you step even slightly out of the cishet gender binary.
Standard English lacks a concise way to convey the idea of fashion choices reclaimed from “feminine” fashion as its own (usually but not necessarily) male gay thing. We call that “femme” or “effeminate”, but the difference between a cross-dresser and a hairy gay man wearing a crop top and booty shorts is obvious. We call that “femme clothing” because we lack a better word for it, but that archetypal gay man isn’t any less masc for it and probably isn’t any closer to attracting archetypal lesbians or straight men.
Another way semantics betray us is when we call emotionally available/sensitive men “effeminate”. Usually in a misogynistic way, but regardless men who are emotionally sensitive aren’t “feminine”.
At the end of the day “being a man” is a vibe, the sum of countless things that aren’t offset simply because a small part of your gender presentation is borrowed from traditionally female things. And vice-versa, neo-nazis on their gym grind aren’t better men because they put on 100 kg of useless muscle and refuse to shake a woman’s hand.
Right. And I’ve always viewed the notion of trans as weirdly social conservatism - because it seems to buy into sexism. I would think a fight against gender stereotypes would be better than a fight to be able to use flexible labels to fit in gender stereotypes. But I guess it amounts to the same thing.
Being trans isn’t about gender stereotypes. There are plenty of GNC trans people.
Gender is a social construct and it doesn’t have to be sexist when consented to. No woman owes feminism to shave their head and wear cargo shorts. If gender truly is a choice then how could it be sexist?
Some people feel strongly man or woman, some feel strongly neither or both, some don’t feel strongly any way. That’s just a fact of life and no amount of social theorizing will invalidate those people’s feelings.
To play devils advocate: Do you think we should invalidate people’s feelings of hate toward trans folk?
Regardless, your first two points seems to conflict. The social construct of gender is based on stereotypes. How can there be any notion of a particular gender unless there are characteristics attributed to it? And any generalization based on such assumptions is sexist by definition.
I agree that some people just feel they are what they are and that’s totally cool. Power to ya! But it is interesting to see the echos of conservatism hiding in these ‘progressive’ ideals, whether people want to admit it or not.
The right to self-actualization is not equivalent to hatred nor an enforced social order of arbitrary and repressive rules. You don’t get to pull the “it’s just feelings” card to defend bigotry.
Gender characteristics are not the same thing as stereotypes and either way none of that is inherently sexist. Characteristics just are. The weighted sum of gender characteristics is how we perceive gender outwardly – which is not necessarily correlated to internal perception of gender. Sexism only happens because some people use that outwards perception of gender to make ill judgment and enforce unfair rules. That’s on them, not the person being perceived.
Well I agree that feelings of bigotry don’t get protection just because they’re feeling. But it’s an interesting point, no? What you ir I might feel is right or wrong is different than what other people might feel is right or wrong. Even if there was some sort of definitive right and wrong, people’s feelings are what they feel. Thinking your feelings should be protected, but other’s shouldn’t seems a little hypocritical.
But I digress, what I’m really interested in is what things you think are gender characteristics (that aren’t stereotypes, and aren’t used to make judgments or enforce unfair rules).
Don’t make the mistake of starting from the “enlightened centrist” hypothesis that everyone’s a little bit right and working backwards to a justification why an absolute moral position is supposedly hypocritical.
This isn’t about my feelings, this is about a right to self-actualization.
And you clearly didn’t understand my point if you are getting hung up on this idea of gender stereotypes. I could be 150 cm with humongous pendulous tits, hair down to my BBL, a miniskirt and a crop-top with my nipples poking through, 30 cm stillettos, Marilyn Monroe’s face, enough makeup to smother a small child, and the brattiest attitude you’ve ever seen in your life. That still would not give anyone the right to be sexist. You’re the one bringing sexism into this like it’s somehow inextricable from the experience of gender.
Well that’s quite a mental
Image! And I’m not challenging anyone’s right to self actualize - I certainly encourage it.
But it’s not that I’m hung up on gender stereotypes it’s just that I don’t see how there is any gender ‘experience’ without being based on sexually stereotypes. Please just explain any such gender experience or characteristic.
If anything can be masculine, then what does it mean to be masculine? I’m all for call yourself whatever you want, be how you want to be; but a certain logical consistency would be nice. If there are no differences between genders, that’s great, but then what’s the meaning of being trans or not?
On top of the answers you got there is a problem of semantics. “Feminine” can mean very different things in different contexts once you step even slightly out of the cishet gender binary.
Standard English lacks a concise way to convey the idea of fashion choices reclaimed from “feminine” fashion as its own (usually but not necessarily) male gay thing. We call that “femme” or “effeminate”, but the difference between a cross-dresser and a hairy gay man wearing a crop top and booty shorts is obvious. We call that “femme clothing” because we lack a better word for it, but that archetypal gay man isn’t any less masc for it and probably isn’t any closer to attracting archetypal lesbians or straight men.
Another way semantics betray us is when we call emotionally available/sensitive men “effeminate”. Usually in a misogynistic way, but regardless men who are emotionally sensitive aren’t “feminine”.
At the end of the day “being a man” is a vibe, the sum of countless things that aren’t offset simply because a small part of your gender presentation is borrowed from traditionally female things. And vice-versa, neo-nazis on their gym grind aren’t better men because they put on 100 kg of useless muscle and refuse to shake a woman’s hand.
Right. And I’ve always viewed the notion of trans as weirdly social conservatism - because it seems to buy into sexism. I would think a fight against gender stereotypes would be better than a fight to be able to use flexible labels to fit in gender stereotypes. But I guess it amounts to the same thing.
To play devils advocate: Do you think we should invalidate people’s feelings of hate toward trans folk?
Regardless, your first two points seems to conflict. The social construct of gender is based on stereotypes. How can there be any notion of a particular gender unless there are characteristics attributed to it? And any generalization based on such assumptions is sexist by definition.
I agree that some people just feel they are what they are and that’s totally cool. Power to ya! But it is interesting to see the echos of conservatism hiding in these ‘progressive’ ideals, whether people want to admit it or not.
Fallacies upon fallacies.
The right to self-actualization is not equivalent to hatred nor an enforced social order of arbitrary and repressive rules. You don’t get to pull the “it’s just feelings” card to defend bigotry.
Gender characteristics are not the same thing as stereotypes and either way none of that is inherently sexist. Characteristics just are. The weighted sum of gender characteristics is how we perceive gender outwardly – which is not necessarily correlated to internal perception of gender. Sexism only happens because some people use that outwards perception of gender to make ill judgment and enforce unfair rules. That’s on them, not the person being perceived.
Well I agree that feelings of bigotry don’t get protection just because they’re feeling. But it’s an interesting point, no? What you ir I might feel is right or wrong is different than what other people might feel is right or wrong. Even if there was some sort of definitive right and wrong, people’s feelings are what they feel. Thinking your feelings should be protected, but other’s shouldn’t seems a little hypocritical.
But I digress, what I’m really interested in is what things you think are gender characteristics (that aren’t stereotypes, and aren’t used to make judgments or enforce unfair rules).
Don’t make the mistake of starting from the “enlightened centrist” hypothesis that everyone’s a little bit right and working backwards to a justification why an absolute moral position is supposedly hypocritical.
This isn’t about my feelings, this is about a right to self-actualization.
And you clearly didn’t understand my point if you are getting hung up on this idea of gender stereotypes. I could be 150 cm with humongous pendulous tits, hair down to my BBL, a miniskirt and a crop-top with my nipples poking through, 30 cm stillettos, Marilyn Monroe’s face, enough makeup to smother a small child, and the brattiest attitude you’ve ever seen in your life. That still would not give anyone the right to be sexist. You’re the one bringing sexism into this like it’s somehow inextricable from the experience of gender.
Well that’s quite a mental Image! And I’m not challenging anyone’s right to self actualize - I certainly encourage it.
But it’s not that I’m hung up on gender stereotypes it’s just that I don’t see how there is any gender ‘experience’ without being based on sexually stereotypes. Please just explain any such gender experience or characteristic.