Updated! Updates are shown in quote text like this. Some scores are updated following app updates.
An Apps Experiment
Cross-posted from https://lemmy.world/post/18159531
Introduction
This is an experiment I performed out of curiosity, and I have a few big disclaimers at the bottom. Basically, I’ve seen a lot of comments recently about one app or another not displaying something right. Lemmy has been around for a while now and can no longer be considered an experimental platform.
Lemmy and the apps that people use to access the platform have become an important part of people’s lives. Whether you are checking the app weekly or daily, and whether you use it to stay up on the news or to stay connected to your hobby, it’s important that it works. I hope that this helps people to see the extent of the challenge, and encourages developers to improve their apps, too.
How I did it
I wanted to investigate objectively how accurately each app displays text of posts and comments using the standard Lemmy markdown. Markdown is a standard part of the Lemmy platform, but not all apps handle it the same. It is basically what gives text useful formatting.
I used the latest release of each app, but did not include pre-releases. I only included apps that have released an update in the last 6 months, which should include most apps in active development. I was unable to test iOS-exclusive apps, so they are not included either. In all, 16 apps met the inclusion criteria.
I also added Eternity, which is in active development, although it has not had a recent update. I was able to include several iOS apps thanks to testing from @jordanlund@lemmy.world – Thanks, Jordan! This made for 20 apps that were tested.
Each app was rated in 5 categories: Text, Format, Spoilers, Links, and Images. I chose these mostly based on the wonderful Markdown Guide from @marvin@sffa.community, which was posted about a year ago in !meta@sffa.community (here).
I checked whether each app correctly displayed each category, then took the overall average. Each category was weighted equally. Text includes italic, bold, strong, strikethrough, superscript, and subscript. Format includes block quotes, lists, code (block and inline), tables, and dividers. Spoilers includes display of hidden, expandable spoilers. Links includes external links, username links, and community links. Images included embedded images, image references, and inline images.
Thanks to input from others, I also added a test to see if lemmy hyperlinks opened in-app. There was a problem with using the SFFA Community Guide that caused some apps to be essentially penalized twice because there was formatting inside formatting, so I created this TEST POST to more clearly and fairly measure each app.
In each case, I checked whether the display was correct based on the rules for Lemmy Markdown, and consistent with the author’s intent. In cases where the app recognized the tag correctly but did not display it accurately, that was treated as a fail.
Results
Out of a possible perfect 10, 6 apps displayed all markdown correctly:
Alexandrite - 10.0
Connect - 10.0
Jerboa (Official Android client) - 10.0
Photon - 10.0
Summit - 10.0
Voyager - 10.0
Quiblr - 9.5
Arctic - 9.3
Interstellar - 9.1
Lemmuy-UI - 9.0
Thunder - 8.9
Tesseract - 8.6
mlmym - 8.0
Racoon - 7.6
Boost - 7.3
Eternity - 7.0
Lemmios - 6.9
Sync - 6.9
Lemmynade - 6.1
Avelon - 5.7
Disclaimers
Disclaimers
I Love Lemmy Apps (and their devs)
Lemmy apps devs work very hard, and invest a lot in the platform. Lemmy is better because they are doing the work that they do. Like, a LOT better. Everyone who uses the platform has to access it through one app or another. Apps are the face of the entire platform. Whether an app is a FOSS passion project, underwritten by a grant, or generating income through sales or ads, no one is getting rich by making their app. It is for the benefit of the community.
This is not meant to be a rating of the quality or functionality of any app. An app may have a high rating here but be missing other features that users want, or users may love an app that has a lower rating. This is just about how well apps handle markdown.
This is pretty unscientific
You’ll see my methodology above. I’m not a scientist. There is probably a much better way to do this, and I probably have biases in terms of how I went about it. I think it’s interesting and probably has some valuable information. If you think it’s interesting, let me know. If you think of a better way, PM me and I’d be happy to share what I have so you don’t have to start from scratch.
My only goal is to help the community
I do think that accurately displaying markdown should be a standard expectation of a finished app. I hope that devs use this as an opportunity to shore up the areas that are lagging, and that they have a set of standards to aim for.
I don’t have any Apple things
Sorry. This is just Android and Web review. If someone would like to see how iOS apps are doing, please reach out and I’ll share how we can work together to include them.
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Hey, I’m the Photon dev. I’d like to know which parts Photon incorrectly displayed, so far I only see tables rendering incorrectly. I’ll have this fixed soon.
Update: fixed table displays, pushed to main
Could this be updated now? 🥺 (you can test here)
Unrelated, but photon keeps randomly redirecting pages to what is previously viewed. It has screwed me over by making me post to the wrong community.
Holy shit, Photon has gotten this good now? When I tried it a few months back it felt like just yet another Lemmy client. Now it feels so smooth and polished. Works great on mobile even. Thanks for making this!
Photon is so great i honestly feel like it should replace the default
Woohoo Voyager!
Voyager gang, let’s scroll
It’s the best PWA ever made, to my knowledge.
PWA?
Progressive web app
Oh I didn’t know it was a web app, I’ve only seen it on droidify, among other “normal” apps. It looks amazing !
It was initially a pwa, but now it is a full and proper app, even available on Google play now!
I believe it can still be used as a pwa though.
Voyager da 🐐 no 🧢
Interesting to see that even Lemmy-UI does not display markdown completely correctly
if you want to get fancy you can even use undocumented tables This surprisingly works on boost.
Works on Voyager.
Did I pass? lol
just as great as lemmy-ui
Works on Thunder.
Tables are a very common markdown extension most(?) popular markdown parsers support them
I wasn’t sure if Lemmuy-UI in the results list was a typo or an alternative interface. Now I know. 😄
For some reason, Lemmy-UI does not convert usernames to links: @gedaliyah@lemmy.world
it does, but only if you use the autocomplete feature. it’s also a bit delayed without any indicator that it’s loading.
if you type @gedal and wait a moment it’ll load @gedaliyah@lemmy.world to be selected:
Yes, I’m not sure if that is meant to be a placeholder or a substitute for native user links. What it actually does is generate markup that converts the username into a web link, which is fine for most circumstances, but not ideal. A plaintext username should automatically link to the user. This creates an inconsistent behavior between posts depending on where (and when) they were typed.
In other words, it’s a very helpful feature, but it is not recognizing and linking usernames.
It’s weird that community names are automatically rendered as links, but usernames aren’t. Isn’t it pretty much the same thing?
yeah exactly. On mbin it works this way and lemmy inserting the link breaks that. But it does it for communities in the community description sometime as well, though I don’t know if it is just a user “error” or a lemmy error
Actually that behaviour is very annoying to other platforms. Mbin for example can only link to the lemmy server this user is on and no longer the local profile of that user. Example:
gets converted to[@ user @ lemmy.instance](https:// lemmy.instance/u/userso on mbin this does not open the profile of the user on the local server, but instead links the lemmy instance, so you leave your instance to view the profile.(spaces included so this won’t get converted to mentions, etc)
Are those not two different users though? Joe at Hotmail and Joe at Gmail are different.
Yes they are, but you have my profile on your server and you do not need to leave the server to view my profile…
should link tohttps:// mbin.instance/u/.instanceand not tohttps:// lemmy.instance/u/user
Yeah, it’s rather inconsistent. I opened an issue for it a while ago.
I hope they fix it soon. It would make tagging users way smoother and less clunky.
Compare the source of your comment to the one you’re replying to. Those are two different things. I’d argue it’s a workaround of anything.
What happens if you press tab or click on the suggested item at the point in your screenshot?
For me, it inserts the link at the cursor position, but doesn’t replace the bit you’ve already typed, resulting in
@gedal[@gedaliyah@lemmy.world](URL).Anyone else have this issue?
on firefox, if i type
@gedaland click or press tab once it replaces the text with[.world](https://lemmy.world/u/gedaliyah). the behavior is the same whether i hit tab, enter or click the text.if i type
@gedaland click or press tab once it replaces the text with[.world](https://lemmy.world/u/gedaliyah)Ah, you are correct. It turns out that the issue I was encountering was a little more subtle.
If I type all the way to
@gedaliyah@and click or press tab once it replaces only the second ‘@’, resulting in@gedaliyah[@gedaliyah@lemmy.world](https://lemmy.world/u/gedaliyah).It’s not even just that. It seems that the extra
acts as a separator, so you can’t even autocomplete e.g.@threelonmusketeers@shas that’ll try to autocomplete@shinstead of taking the instance domain as part of the mention.I’ve raised a GitHub issue for this now: https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy-ui/issues/2652
Thanks for investigating and opening a GitHub issue!
I hope they fix it soon, or else just fix the underlying issue to render
@user@instanceas markdown in the first place.
Dunno … I went to the linked page in the top post and everything seemed fine to me (using Lemmy-UI)
It doesn’t display headings, I know that much.
#Heading
I’m not sure
#headingis valid markdown (see, eg, Daring Fireball’s “original” syntax page) … and I’ve never seen it. I’ve always understood that the space was necessary, which I think makes sense for a number of reasons TBHSo …
#This does not work
This does work
I know that it works on some sites (reddit for example). Generally, it is not preferred.
Didn’t know it worked on reddit. Generally it seems necessary to require the space as it disambiguates headings from hashtags, and also makes the raw text more readable.
In doing this I learned that there are “correct” but also “preferred” ways to use markdown. A heading should have a
spaceafter the#even though it is correct either way.##Heading
Heading
These lines may be the same or different in different apps.
The thing of it is, if you just highlight some text and hit the heading button in the GUI, it doesn’t include the space.
Heading
Bravo Voyager! 🔥
What about eternity. Pretty sure it hasn’t been updated in ages tho.
A new version will be out soon
9 months ago, which is a good reason to not include it in the overview.
The dev is back, and has released a beta of the next release: https://lemmy.toldi.eu/comment/3217386
At the very least it doesn’t handle spoilers correctly
I don’t even see footnotes in the documentation[1], but they can be pretty useful. It’s
^[text], in case others are curious.
I don’t see foot notes mentioned in the CommonMark spec. https://spec.commonmark.org/0.31.2/
They aren’t in the CommonMark spec but tables and spoilers aren’t either.
That’s really interesting. AFAIK Lemmy devs do not have a comprehensive markdown documentation. I thought it was CommonMark plus spoilers and Lemmy links, but it seems like they have other changes as well.
Yes, I didn’t go that far down the rabbit hole. I decided to very unscientificly pick five categories that I personally thought were relevant and score those. There are lots of markdown types and situations that are not captured here.
Whoa footnotes! That’s a thing?
@gedaliyah@lemmy.world iOS testing, not sure how you score these so I just listed out the broken stuff.
Arctic - Link opens in App. Headings fail, images fail, everything else looks fine.
Avelon - Link opens in browser, not app. Manually went to test post. Bold+Italic fails (Italic works, not Bold). Table fails. Horizontal Rule fails. Spoiler fails. Everything else looks good.
Bean - Last updated 7 months ago, comments on the app say it’s abandoned. Link opens in browser, not app. Manually went to test post. Text formatting block fails so hard, it’s not even visible(!) Heading fails. Code Block fails, Inline Code fails. Links and Image work, but not inline, only at the bottom of the post. Table fails. Horizontal rule fails.
CheeseBot - Did not test. $2.99, no free version.
Lemmios - Link opens in app. Everything looks and works great EXCEPT Spoilers.
Mlem - Link opens in browser, not app. Manually went to test post. As with Lemmios, everything looks and works great EXCEPT spoilers.
Remmel - Instant fail. No development in 2 years, unable to even add an instance or an account. Non-starter.
Thunder - Hard to test. Lots of lag for some reason. Link opens in browser, not app. Manually went to test post. That being said, EVERYTHING worked. The lag may have been because I had just linked my account. Testing everything above, then coming back to Thunder, I found it fast and responsive.
Voyager - Link opens in app. EVERYTHING worked. No notes.
So, ranking them:
Voyager - EVERYTHING worked. No notes.
Thunder - Everything worked, but laggy to start with when using a year old account with lots of data. Once it caught up, everything was fine. Would probably be great with a new account.
Lemmios - Link opens in app by default. Spoilers don’t work.
Mlem - Link opens in browser by default but is user configurable. Spoilers don’t work.
Arctic - A few minor failures.
Avelon - A few more failures than Arctic.
Bean - Hey, it works better than Remmel. Probably abandoned.
Remmel - Instant fail.
CheeseBot - Did not test. $2.99, no free version.
Mlem - Link opens in browser, not app.
This is configurable. You can switch to have it open either way.
Noted! I wasn’t really testing configurations, just “out of the box” functionality.
Memmy is my favorite. cute name. Memmy for Lemmy
Has Memmy started getting updates again? I thought it was abandoned.
Still dead, and not on iOS App Store anymore
Thanks! I’ll have a look tomorrow
What about Boost?
Searching the Apple app store for “lemmy” only turned up these.
Voyager is premo.
Voyager, bruh.
I don’t understand why there isn’t a “markdown library” of some sort that software developers can just use in their app. I haven’t looked too deep into this, but it has always seemed to me that every app must individually implement markdown display. Why?
Because markdown has committed the worst of old programming sins. It has no standard.
However I’m pretty sure that Lemmy has a standard so there’s not really much excuse.
Lemmy documentation references CommonMark so I’m assuming that is the accepted standard, plus a few Lemmy specific things.
Isn’t the base markdown standardized?
It’s just that so many flavors advertise themselves as markdown+ flavor?
only sort of.
this is the original document defining markdown, and you’ll notice it doesn’t really specify a lot of the things that have compatibility issues across different markdown processors, along with allowing arbitrary html which really depends on where you’re showing it. There’s a list of ambiguous syntax here.
CommonMark is as close to a standard as we have.
There are Markdown libraries. Many have small differences and many apps have their own custom additions though.
The problem isn’t that there are no libraries out there that parse Markdown. There are, in fact, plenty for all different languages. The issue is that every site has its own flavor of it. Lemmy does it one way, GitHub another, and something else does it completely differently yet again.
It is, unfortunately, kind of a mess.
As one of the Thunder devs, I can say there are markdown libraries. Thunder is written in Dart/Flutter and there is a great library that we use.
https://pub.dev/packages/flutter_markdown
That said, and as others have mentioned, markdown is not as well standardized and it seems like just about every site renders it differently, so there are a lot of edge cases to handle. Lemmy also has several unique implementations of things, such as spoilers, superscript/subscript, and the ability to tag users/communities without a hyperlink.
In fact, one of the things Thunder failed on (table alignment) is a known bug in the markdown library we use. :-)
I see. Markdown badly needs a good standard, doesn’t it.
I’ve been using Mlem since week 2 and I have no idea if I’m missing anything or not. I’ve never visited any instance on anything but Mlem.
Same, and I suspect we are missing stuff because I’ve never seen a gif and often see a bunch of emoji (in place of a photo album? Idk)
I don’t think Mlem has link embed support
Btw I just found out that lemmy-ui supports markdown citations.
It’s not documented AFAIK though.
I have an iOS device and am happy to repeat your methodology! Did you have a test thread or something with all the markdowns?
On it. I found 8 apps in the App store. I’ll PM you.
Arctic, Avelon, Bean, Lemmios, Mlem, Remmel, Thunder, Voyager.
There’s a 9th, CheeseBot, but it’s $2.99 and all the others are free.
Cheesebot is a watch app I believe
Who the hell is browsing Lemmy on their watch?
People who use cheesebot.
Some of those are Multiplatform (this should be the same across devices)
Thank you for this! I’m really going to appreciate your work.
Bean is abandoned.
Given the performance, that does not surprise me!
App does say it was last updated 7 months ago, but I see comments saying it’s abandoned.
Yeah the dev took payments for the app and then vanished.
If you’re getting that granular then you must’ve had to record the data somewhere. Did I miss where the OP is sharing their data set?
Sure, you can DM me somewhere to share a spreadsheet. Just please keep in mind that DM in Lemmy is not encrypted.
Just add it to the post lmao.
