Hello World,
Today, after careful consideration and evaluation of recent events, we have decided to defederate from Lemmygrad.
Regrettably, we have observed a significant increase in hate speech and calls to violence originating from the Lemmygrad instance. Due to the severity of the posts and comments, we are not waiting for the next Lemmy update that will allow users to block instances.
At Lemmy.world, we have always strived to foster an inclusive and welcoming user environment. However, recent posts and comments from Lemmygrad have clearly violated our server rules and, more importantly, our core values. We firmly believe that hate speech and incitement of violence have no place in our community, regardless of personal beliefs or affiliations.
As always, we encourage all users to report any content they deem inappropriate or harmful. No matter one’s stance in any conflict, Lemmy.world will always take immediate action to remove and ban any posts or comments that incite violence or propagate hatred.
We encourage everyone to continue engaging in discussions within the boundaries of respect and understanding. As we move forward with this decision, we remain committed to providing all community members with a safe and welcoming space. We appreciate your continued support and cooperation in upholding our shared principles.
Thank you,
The Lemmy.World Team
Lemmmygrad supposedly is for people who support communism, but when talking to them, they really are supporting totalitarian countries which have nothing to do with communism.
The bit that really irked me was that it was purely performative. It seemed like literally the exact same community that populated the_donald with memes and Trump train bots and the photoshopping of Trump’s pic onto Rambo. Their posts have fuck all to do with communism just like the trump posts had nothing to do with conservative politics. It was just edge faux-outrage and basically taking an opposite position for its own sake. They could simultaneously criticize Gov Newsom for not signing a trans rights bill while praising Putin who is doing his level best to make being gay illegal. It’s a mistake to see it as political discourse when it’s really just trolling. Like on the_donald, they egg each other on and have their in jokes and memes (in both the picture sense and in the actual meme sense) about walls the same way the trumpers did with helicopters.
Defederation is the best response imo.
It is funny to mention Trump around tankies and watch their heads explode. They can’t pretend Trump is a communist, but their propaganda masters don’t want them to turn against the Republicans, so they’re just in this weird space where the only thing they can do is aggressively avoid the topic at all.
hexbear had an entire thread with hundreds of comments where they all agreed they hated trump and viewed him as an odious fascist
https://lemmy.ml/post/4040923?scrollToComments=true
The closest thing you find to support for trump in there is some of them thinking he is a less effective imperialist.
I’ve seen them actively celebrate that they don’t suffer from “Trump derangement syndrome” like liberals (supposedly) do. The longer you watch them, the more pro-fascism you see slip through
Don’t forget the classical “liberals are the real fascist allies”
Just be aware that “liberal” has a complete different meaning in the political discourse compared to what it means in the current (low quality) american political discourse. Historically liberals have been allies of fascism, indeed.
Liberalism birthed capitalism, the greatest hierarchical economic system this world has ever seen. It supports and feeds capitalism with its cult of individuality, a reverence of wealth and power, and its almost dogmatic need for competition in order to sort the best from the worst.
Fascism is a logical extension of this. All it does is shrink the in-group and expand the out-group.
Nazism was basically just liberalism taken to its conclusion. Rich people get to live in comfort as poor people die in a mass genocide.
Uhhhh. No. That’s not how it went at all. Rich Jews did not get to live in comfort, they had their wealth stolen and were killed all the same. Nazism was ethnic cleansing, antisemitism, and purging society of the “unideal”, rich or poor. The only German Jews who I think could get amnesty were those who fought for Germany in WW1 – soldiers do not tend to be rich, and their families were not extended the same amnesty, from what I recall. Otto Frank had military service but it did not save his family.
It’s rather disgusting to ignore the antisemitism and homophobia that led to genocides and reduce it to only economics.
The anti-semitism was populism, an attempt to steer the public to support them by repeating their own beliefs back at them. Germany was already heavily anti-semitic. Nazism was a colonial project, literally copying and pasting the US conquest of the West to Europe.
The nazis rose to power because they were backed by capitalists and the German establishment, and the reason they were backed was that they helped suppress a resurgent socialist movement in Germany and redirect the frustration of the german middle class toward scapegoated minorities and away from capitalists. Nazis co-opted socialist language and messaging, but were staunch capitalists and class-collaborationists who carried out mass privatization and crushed labor organizing.
I don’t think you’re really considering that liberalism does a lot of the same shit, only their targets are different groups which you don’t consider because it makes you feel uncomfortable.
I’ll clear that one up since everyone here seems to be boldly making inaccurate claims. They say that because media outlets and people will spend more time analyzing and critiquing Trump eating McDonalds or typing covfefe than the US, say, drone striking innocent Afghani people or the utter shit show that Libya has become due partially to the efforts of Clinton and Obama.
You could have just sait it’s whataboutism.
I’ve actually once seen a tankie scream something about how the “imperial coreTM” (America) allows gay marriage, codifying Obergefell into law last year just in case SCOTUS and some red-state AG decide it needs to go and make a serious attempt at it. Some of them actually do think it’s “capitalistic degeneracy”
It’s amazing what some state-sponsored troll farms can convince people of. Some people can’t evaluate content they see online critically and gobble up the propaganda
The tactics and attitudes definitely make me think of that. It seems like the same people who showed up and fucked up a bunch of subs on reddit 6-7 years ago, like how conspiracy went from discussing things like UFOs and MK ULTRA to conservative political conspiracy theories and opposing the Democratic Party and politicians.
Are you saying MK ULTRA is just a conspiracy theory and never happened? I’ve watched documentaries on PBS, BBC and the History Channel. Clearly the program existed, as for what clandestine operations it ran, that’s certainly loaded with conspiracy theories.
If everything is a conspiracy theory, nothing is a conspiracy theory.
https://www.history.com/topics/us-government-and-politics/history-of-mk-ultra
No, I didn’t intend any meaning like that. I just said it was the sort of thing discussed on the sub prior to a bunch of bullshit.
Whenever communists or socialists gather, the tankies take over.
It’s been like that since the past 100 years.
I’m not even sure they’re really tankies anymore (or the meaning of the word is changing). Actual tankies still ostensibly support communism, but all too often, it’s blatantly apparent that they’re actually right-wing totalitarians cosplaying.
They’re tankies in the original sense. The word came from an incident where there was an actual honest to god socialist movement when workers were seizing the means of production, and “communist” Russia sent literal tanks to shut it down. A reporter happened to observe the whole thing in person and tried to write up the story, but his editors would only print the official U.N. statement that the tanks were stopping a fascist movement.
Thanks I’ve been wondering where the term originated
Yep, it’s easy to bait them too. You make a post or comment calling out tankies for supporting authoritarianism, and out of the woodwork scurry all the “socialists and communists” to downvote you.
Thing is, a real socialist or communist hates authoritarianism too.
[Looks around nervously]
Aren’t we gathering here too? This defederation seems like tankies not taking over.
Anecdotally I was in a bunch of actual leftist subreddits; I only departed because capitalists enshittified the whole website.
Maybe you just didn’t recognize it. Reddit leftist spaces were famously led by tankie mods.
Yup, you would call out their BS and you get banned. The system was perfect and no one is allowed to fully criticize it.
Aww, they’re just not doing “the right kind” of communism I guess?
Show me communism that doesn’t end in genocide and totalitarian state leadership, I’ll wait.
The biggest problem with communism is not the socialism, it is the totalitarism that is required for it to function. And that’s the part that kills people.
Now that Russia and China aren’t even communist, it clearly shows what they are truly after.
I think that’s the point: communism had good intentions but always ended up in totalitarianism.
I just gotta say, the moderation here makes me so happy I joined this instance.
Ditto.
Same! I moved over from lemmy.one, and was re-creating my block lists when I discovered that lemmy.world had already defederated from hexbear. So that saved me like 40 blocklist entries right there! Good job, admins!
This is an admin thing, some mods are still all over the place on this instance.
Do you have any examples?
!world
From the sidebar:
While not required, consider including the article’s mediabiasfactcheck.com/ link.
Then you find a top post removed with the reason of mediabiasfactcheck, for a source with no fact check fails and a slight “center right” orientation.
All posts and comments will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. This means that some content that violates the rules may be allowed, while other content that does not violate the rules may be removed. The moderators retain the right to remove any content and ban users.
Meaning: no rules.
Not sure who redacted that, but it allows any arbitrary decision.
!politicalmemes
From the sidebar, rule 2:
No misinformation
Don’t post any intentional misinformation. When asked by mods, provide sources for any claims you make.A lot of comments removed with a reason of “rule 2”, even when including multiple links to support the claims made. After I got one of those, I tried replying to some comments by providing sources for the claims they made, while citing the rule. My comments were left alone, the parent comments got deleted for reason “rule 2”. At no point any mod actually asked to provide sources, clearly didn’t check the ones provided.
Personally, I’ve left (blocked) that whole community.
I get mod overload, I get different communities with different rules, but these handwavy approaches that allow misapplication of one’s own rules, don’t lead to anything good.
Then you find a top post removed with the reason of mediabiasfactcheck, for a source with no fact check fails and a slight “center right” orientation.
If I look through the modlog, I don’t see the particular post you mention, could you maybe elaborate on which post you mean?
Meaning: no rules. Not sure who redacted that, but it allows any arbitrary decision.
I disagree with the statements that that means “No rules”, it just means that sometimes a technical rule violation doesn’t warrant a removal of a post. There is no world in which rules are perfectly complete for every edge case and no “arbitrary” decision ever need to be made.
A lot of comments removed with a reason of “rule 2”, even when including multiple links to support the claims made. After I got one of those, I tried replying to some comments by providing sources for the claims they made, while citing the rule. My comments were left alone, the parent comments got deleted for reason “rule 2”. At no point any mod actually asked to provide sources, clearly didn’t check the ones provided.
I’m actually a mod for politicalMemes. If I look through the modlog, I don’t see many instances of comments / posts being removed for rule 2. So could you please specify which removals you are referring to?
If I look through the modlog, I don’t see the particular post you mention
Yeah… I’ve been looking through the modlog, and can’t find neither that, nor the politicalmemes ones. I think it was about a week or two ago, so it’s not easy to parse (or maybe I’m doing it wrong).
just means that sometimes a technical rule violation doesn’t warrant a removal of a post
If it’s supposed to mean that, why not just write that? Or, instead of “rules”, maybe call it “guidelines”, if they’re supposed to be interpreted on a case by case basis.
I think it is pretty clear that the case-by-case statement means that there is some flexibility in the rules. But I will consult with the other moderators of politicalMemes to see if they think changing is necessary.
bro im a leftist and i dont understand
how people who dont live in the Levant
need to comment on these local issues
Why shouldn’t people comment on international affairs?
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It seems reasonable to condemn both terrorism and genocide.
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The current landscape is a product of foreign parties drawing the map.
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The US props up Israel, who in turn have propped up Hamas to justify their treatment of Palestine.
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The bulk of the middle east has some stake in this issue for one reason or another.
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Because people who don’t live in the Levant caused these issues 80 years ago, and actively fund it today
I don’t understand
Why people need
Huge line breaks
Between each statement
deleted by creator
I think this is for the best, there are some seriously disturbed people posting on Lemmygrad. I saw comments cheering on and celebrating the Hamas attack and talking about how they hoped the people who were kidnapped get tortured. Whatever your politics, that is super fucked up and not “legitimate discourse”.
“People always say this exists but it’s just a smear on the left wing, I’ve never seen it!”
I really wish the first instinct wasn’t for people to play defense, but to instead call it fucked up that people would possibly say that
Wonder how they feel about Hamas preventing the evacuation of civilians from Gaza… but I bet that question would be banned as soon as it was posted.
Lost all respect for lemmygrad when they deleted a comment i made about voting for the lesser of 2 evils being the correct course of action to advance the interests of the Prolitariat in the United States. They care more about larping as revolutionaries than enacting change that actually helps the Working Class.
Good Job! You make my experience of Lemmy continuously better! You cleaned that CSAM up with the speed of light (I’ve never even noticed it), you managed the Piracy Community Troubles very well and now you made an well thought through decision about Lemmygrad. Well done Mods! And thank you all very much!
A well thought through decision that gives no examples or arguments?
With the timing, I have to assume the reason is “they support Palestine.”
you must be a farmer because that’s a very obvious strawman
where’s everyone else’s nuance in this thread? Is it just me who needs to write a carefully worded diplomatic letter?
You want my opinion, I think we are making the same mistakes we made after 9/11, where we work ourselves up into a fucking frenzy, ignore the historical background of what’s happening, buy in to a simplified narrative, and give vague blanket support to whatever awful countermeasures we’re told are appropriate. Like the indiscriminate bombings that are killing hundreds of Palestinians now and probably not hitting a single Hamas fighter since they’re all down in the fucking tunnels.
Or this collective punishment shit, which is a fucking war crime against the entire population of Gaza:
“I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed. We are fighting human animals and we act accordingly.”
It starts to sound like “human animals” might refer to Palestinians in general.
Hi! Jew here, the perfect person to talk about this situation!
The continued occupation of Palestein is not a good situation under any circumstance except that by Israel holding that land it prevents the neighboring countries from invading the area and starting wars with Israel which is why the land is held. Feel free to ignore the whole “it’s our birthright, it’s jewish land” cause let’s be honest, even that’s questionable in the torah.
Moving right along, the continued occupation is the reason for the attack, but that makes it no more correct. Innocent people, potentially including children definitely including teenagers, have been murdered.
With that understanding out of the way, lemmygrad was defeded because users were actively posting in favor of the murder and in multiple cases posting/hoping/whatevering for even more of it. Guess what? That’s 100% against TOS of lemmy.world. I don’t like the situation the two nations are in but advocating for the death of innocent people is fucking disgraceful.
I take it as frustrated leftists overcorrecting in the other direction in response to media coverage that ignores the decades of openly racist ethnic cleansing of Palestinians and treats this attack as some sudden unprovoked thing out of left field.
While you’re welcome to take it that way, celebrating innocent deaths of any group of people is abhorrent.
struggling to reach escape velocity with this comment, wording it is mentally taxing but the later it gets the slower I think
I can’t speak for anyone or read the thoughts behind people’s words online, but I know people tend to say fucked up things when they are angry and I know people are really fucking angry right now, myself included. That doesn’t mean I feel catharsis watching religious extremists slaughter a village of Israeli settlers or shoot up of a fucking rave — but I feel a kind of enraged grief. Because that kind of barbarism and extremism is the inevitable fucking result of what has been done in Palestine. Extremism like that doesn’t spring up in a vacuum. When you hear things like, half of the people in Gaza are children, and half of those children struggle with suicidal thoughts, and 95% of the fucking water is unsafe to drink, and most of the population is unemployed, and then you turn on the news and all the politicians and media personalities are throwing their unreserved support to the government responsible for it… and then I go on lemmy and I see comments talking about Palestinians like they’re some kind of hive mind, and getting upvotes for it, it just feels like these attitudes are why the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians can continue. And I’m helpless to do anything about it. It’s fucking maddening.
This is true, but doesn’t make it any less abhorrent.
It just doesn’t work that way. Maximum tolerance doesn’t mean intolerance for the average, unrelated civilian that happens to belong to the oppressing group.
I actually agree with your opinion, but that’s not why you were downvoted. It was because you concluded it had to be messages in support of Palestinians that were being deleted.
Look at the comment I’m replying to. It’s net positive at this time, 7-3. The issue isn’t what you’re saying at all – this comment is incredibly sensible and very apt condemnation of Israel’s government.
The issue was the people who not only believed that, but also believed the Hamas was justified in killing civilians and everything else they did. That Hamas got a pass for it all because they were fighting Israel.
That should strike you and me as not only disgusting, but incredibly ironic. The extremes of this issue actually make the exact same argument, that X is justified in all its actions because Y wronged them. They just switch X and Y, and pick events from history that support their claim – and there are events which fit both.
Without Hamas attacking though we wouldn’t be talking about Israel- Palestine nearly as much. If you silently accept being genocided people across the globe will blissfully ignore, including the people right across the border. That doesn’t mean the attack was justified, that’s not the word I would use, as it lacks nuance. But similarly saying acts of terrorism are always unjustified lacks nuance.
It heavily depends how you define an act of terrorism. There’s a difference between acts of terrorism and rebellion, although it isn’t a clear distinction.
Is it a good thing that we’re talking about Israel Palestine though? We’re talking about it because innocent people have died, and Israel is seeming like they’re going to do something horrific to innocent people too. How does this help the Palestinians undergoing genocide? The Hamas attack has turned a lot of sentiment against Palestine, which is unfair for the civilians.
I understand wanting to call attention to an issue, but the manner by which you do that matters a lot. I can bring attention to any issue I want by claiming it as manifesto when I slaughter innocent people, but it isn’t positive attention in the slightest.
The nonviolent protest for civil rights in the US was successful because it was a very palatable alternative to the black panthers. Hamas already exists for Palestine. A nonviolent protest in Israel against their policies would’ve garnered positive attention to them, and possibly even worked.
Do you think the Black Panthers were a negative for civil rights?
There’s that unfortunate modification to “those who don’t learn history are doomed to repeat it”:
Those who do learn history are doomed to watch others repeat it
The difference is that you can still call out the Israeli government without supporting Hamas’s deplorable actions.
Oh I already do. Not a fan of Israel’s kind of shaky interpretation of the Torah for why holding Gaza is ‘approved’, and very very against Hamas as an entity even before all this stuff in October 2023.
It’s a tricky thing, having a possible enemy right at your gates for years and years. For the sake of example, what if Russia as we know it was where Canada currently is? How does one remain calm when there are those plotting right in front of you?
Those civilians on both sides don’t deserve any of this.
I agree with your message insofar that the Israeli government is absolutely genocidal. That doesn’t make Hamas’s actions any more justified tho, and that’s most likely the reason why lemmygrad is being defeded: All the people saying that Hamas did nothing wrong, and those that call for the death of Israeli citizens (rather than the toppling of the Israeli government).
Unfortunately for you no one wants your opinion
They have pronouns in their user, and argue in bad faith. Chances are it’s a tankie from Hexbear or Lemmygrad.
You have snow in your user. Chances are you are a penguin. Or a cocaine dealer.
Hexabear hasn’t been federated in a while.
Alts on other instances that are federated exist for that reason.
You are 100% free to leave Lemmy.world and join Lemmygrad. There is nothing stopping you. And from the Ratio of the Post the most People agree with the decision of defederating.
No one forces you to be here 🙂
I’m not a lemmy.world user, I’m a lemmy.ml user
You can still leave.
EDIT:
Wait and why are you complaining that lemmy.world is defederating Lemmygrad?
I understand that they are staunchly pro-communist and also take a pro-Palestine, including some of them (many of them?) a more clearly pro-Hamas stance. And that all of this could annoy many of the centrist liberals that seem to dominate here. But from perusing the lemmygrad link I do not see clear signs of hate speech, certainly not a clear hate speech agenda as you would see with some hate groups. And judging by the comments on here many seem to be happy to be “rid of them” because they are “annoying”, or “immature”, or “tankies”, or whatever. It really reads largely like “their opinions annoy me” so I’m glad they’re gone.
There may be more to it, I don’t know, but personally I wouldn’t like lemmy.world, an otherwise fine instance by all means, to become a centrist liberal silo where no other opinion outside (mostly US-centric) liberal orthodoxy is heard. So yeah, not convinced that this was the right decision, basically because of a lack of evidence.
deleted by creator
Free speech is important. Every opinion should be heard and considered. However, your freedom ends when it crosses over someone else’s. Good riddance, i had blocked most of lemmygrad’s communities anyways, since all they did was spread propaganda and hate.
Love the mod team (being ex-reddit, never thought I’d say that), the transparency and clarity of their communication with the community is great!
Before I saw lemmygrad: wtf are we doing?
After I saw lemmygrad: glad we defederate…
About time.
Tolerating intolerance will only lead to intolerance.
FINALLY, thanks a lot! 👏
Pretty new to the lemmy thing. Learning the do not and safe zones of the federation.
Lemmygrad is a bit of a rabbit hole from the outside view. Like, holy shit. That place got wicked dark super fast.
There was a lot of it.
Like a lot.
A lot? A lot?
That’s capitalist talk!
Enough to sell?!
Puts on a lot!
Okay, you didn’t have to put so much mustard on it.
Good, are you defederated from hexbear as well? If not, please do.
