I’m really glad that we don’t have more serious problems to deal, than this.
Good to see the parliament tackling the most pressing issues.
I’m a meat eater and I don’t even see much point in this ruling. Basically all the plant-based steak or burger alternatives I’ve seen have been clearly labeled as such. Stores usually separate them from meat-based products anyway, so that vegans and vegetarians could more easily find what they’re looking for.
Seems a bit idiotic to me. So what’s a burger with veggie substitutes supposed to be called? Vegger?
“Our data shows that almost 70% of European consumers understand these names as long as products are clearly labelled vegan or vegetarian,”
How fucking stupid are your customers if “almost 70%” can work out that a vegan sausage doesn’t contain meat?
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.” – George Carlin
70% is pretty good, sadly.
But honestly, the vegan sausages and steaks are not sausages and stakes, even if they are still ultra-processed like their meat counterparts. They really should invent different names that are used for these products.
Why?
I want something vegan that looks and tastes like sausage. I want to have an easy time finding such a product in the store. I look for a product that says “I’m basically a sausage, but vegan”. I buy a vegan sausage.
What’s the problem with that?
How would they even define a sausage anyway, meat content? Well now blood sausage is not a sausage too despite being almost entirely animal product - probably more than most sausages actually given how much filler they put in them.
Or shall we rename all the cheap sausages in shops to “emulsified high fat offal tubes” to more accurately describe them?
And blood sausage is a very good example to show that “sausage” is an established appendix to show the shape of something, while specifying what it’s made of with a term beforehand. Pork sausage. Beef sausage. Turkey sausage. Blood sausage. This works so well that I can invent words of artificial things and still convey what I mean by that: Paper sausage. Ice sausage. Cloth sausage. Glass sausage. …Chickpea sausage. Broccoli sausage. Bean sausage.
It’s a non-brainer. The legislators are being deliberately obtuse here.
Also traditionally it would’ve been in an intestine, but they’ve been making other sorts of casings for meat-based sausages for a while anyway, so that argument against plant based sausages is dead in the water too IMO
Where do you live that blood sausage has more animal product than regular sausages (where the filler is often bone mass and such)? Blood sausage filler where I come from is usually barley groats (or some other format of barley. Barley is really universal apparently).
Picked out a random one they sell here. Contents: barley groats, “food blood” (19%), pork rind, pork (8%), roasted onion, pork fat, salt, various spices
These are generally listed in rough order of importance, so blood sausage is basically more barley groats than animal products.
Now for comparison, the cheapest smoked sausage out there (the sandwich sausage variety, not grill or oven). Contents: chicken meat mass (39%), pork (18%), pork fat, water, cheese (6%), various shit you don’t even want to think or know about.
It’s utterly cheap shit (the chicken meat mass of course includes shit like soft-ish bones ground up, etc), but even this is more animal-y than blood sausages.
Well now blood sausage is not a sausage too despite being almost entirely animal product
The EU document specifically mentions that blood based products counts as meat, so blood sausage is fine.
That’s fucking stupid. Blood isn’t meat, it’s blood. How can something liquid be meat?
In the end it’s a legal document and the terms are defined for the purpose of the regulation, not necessarily how the terms are used in daily life.
Is milk and honey also a meat product? they are stored/produced in the animal too, like blood. Can I call it sausage if I fill a casing with them?
It’d be ironic to be able to call “sausage” to something that tastes and feels nothing like a sausage just because it happens to come from an animal… but being unable to call sausage to something that does look and taste like a sausage but happens to not come from an animal.
Hot take, I don’t think legal documents should get a pass to redefine words and use them differently than how they’re used in daily life. I’m sure they do it on purpose specifically to make it harder for laymen to parse those types of documents, which is stupid.
It would be easier and clearer to write this regulatory document using common parlance, and then we wouldn’t even be having this conversation.
Or shall we rename all the cheap sausages in shops to “emulsified high fat offal tubes” to more accurately describe them?
Nah, this would hurt meat lobbyist’ feelings.
deleted by creator
I am all for allowing vegan sausages to just be called sausage. But I am not the biggest fan of vegan steaks getring the same treatment. Mostly just because a steak is by definition a slice of meat. Patties are fine since they are just ground minced stuff made into a certain shape kinda like sausages.
The definition even includes “turtle steak” which I didn’t even know was a thing… and also fish, which has very different taste and properties than beef steak, for example. I feel that the labeling of “steak” should always come with what is the steak made of anyway… and once you do that then I don’t see what’s the harm of allowing for more exotic sources of protein.
Don’t really care about steaks, but burgers, sausages and many others are really established with their veggie and vegan variants. It’s completely nonsensical to ban them.
I mean you can just call the burgers “patties” which we do in my country anyway. Burger refers to the whole sandwich, not the patty. If they regulate the word “patty” to require meat, I hope farmers will drop cow patties at their doorsteps.
Not a fan of them doing it to the word sausage though, it’s clearly a form factor above all else.
But a restaurant should be allowed to sell me a veggie burger. Why on earth should we call it a burger for beef patties, chicken patties, veal patties and fish patties, but not for bean patties, veggie patties or plant based meat patties like impossible? The only thing different to a “burger” are ingredients which are already swapped out for different ones on a regular basis.
Tbh chicken, fish, pork should also not count as burger if they want to actually preserve purity.
Personally I think the burger should refer to the shape of the sandwich, regardless of what you put inside it, and we should call the patty a patty, regardless of what it’s made of. This luckily is what we’re doing where I live, but if that means that restaurant-prepared veggie burger can’t be called a veggie burger, that’s bullshit. I thought it meant specifically the patties (which in American are called burgers and if anyone has authority on naming here it’s the Americans, as they’ve perfected the art of fa(s)t foods).
What I’m interested in is - how is this supposed to work with all the different languages in all EU countries? For example in finnish “steak” and “patty” both translate as “pihvi”. On top of that words like “kasvispihvi” (vegetable steak/patty) have been in use since early 1900s. Why the hell should EU be able to affect our language to a degree of banning commonly used words everyone understands? Absolutely nobody would think kasvispihvi contains meat, and it’s absurd to even suggest that it couldn’t be used in marketing
So we should call them vegetarian protein cylinders instead of sausages?
Are veggie patties really sold as “Burgers” in the EU? A Burger is technically a dish, it deppends what you put in it, as far as I understand. You can have an Egg burger, or a turd burger.
Fuck the meat industry, btw. If it’s dying - time to get a “real” job. Free market and all.
Haha yeah awesome real problems getting solved by serious politicians here, guys! If you can actually get your hands on any real meat without paying an arm and a leg for it what the actual fuck are we doing here lads what the fuck are these fucking politicians doing???
The world is on fire, the economy is in the shitter globally, there are multiple ongoing genocides, facism is on the rise again, and we’re wiggling our dicks around talking about whether you can call veggie burgers “burgers”? Are you serious? WHO CARES???
Is this bring your kid to work day and they let the kids do a vote for a change instead as a treat? Is this a joke?? What motherfucker is getting into politics to make sure “hey those damn vegans better not call anything a burger”.
These poncy little briefcase-botherers need a hobby or something because this is absolutely the biggest case of dicking around on the job I’ve ever heard of. Ridiculous. Stupid. A joke. Pathetic. Childish. Vapid. Can we get some adults in the EU Parliament please?
Or.
We could tackle multiple problems at once. Why does it have to be a this-or-that thing?
This is in a very literal way not a problem though. They were just bribed by the meat industry.
I’m paying 50% income taxes to pay for a bunch of cronies to chitchat about this bullcrap. Meanwhile they just scraped the money to shelter homeless people during winter
I’m totally in favour of solving multiple problems at once.
Personally, I do not view this as a problem. My issue is with the EU Parliament wasting time with this in place of anything that I perceive as an actual problem.
If you think that calling veggie burgers “burgers” is a problem worth their time and effort, more power to you 👍
To me this is also a non problem. But if they can solve it just so they can move on, that’d be great
Voting the way an industry told them to vote is not solving anything. Shouldn’t have been considered worthy of a vote at all.
Because resources must be prioritized. There simply are more pressing matters to tend to.
This is a non-issue and should have the lowest priority as it’s pandering to a lobby and will likely result in backfiring because more creative names will pop up, possibly leading to even more acceptance of vegan products 😁
Honestly, coming up with a better name would be great. It would likely help the vegan products as well
why are they doing this shit when there are so many problems in the world?
because they already participated in those problems.
In reality, it’s because the farming lobby is the biggest lobby inside the EU. This is an easy “win” that MEPs can use to get beef farmers to vote for them again.
Same reason CAP will never be reformed.
Welcome to the European Union. Solving non-issues is what they do all day.
Steakn’t
How quickly Lemmy turns on the EU when they do something you don’t like. “Vegan burger” doesn’t tell me what’s in it. Could be fucking sawdust.
I’m sure this critical decision will help us.
Cool still not buying dead animal
This is what seems crazy to me, surely no one is changing what they buy based on this and who is really so dumb that they were confused by the vegan sausage not containing meat?
And even if, no one dies of eating a vegan sausage by mistake.
Generally no, but food allergies could cause death depending on the vegan alternative contents. Have a severe allergy to wheat, seitan is a no-go. Have a severe allergy to legumes, chickpeas and bean altertanives are a no-go.
However, I’ve never seen vegan alternatives not clearly labeled as vegan or meat alternative is some very obvious way. And the people I know with allergies severe enough to cause severe reactions read the ingredients carefully of everything they buy. And ask what’s in things before eating something prepared by somebody else.
Not true. I made my racist uncle eat a vegan sausage once and he was almost offended to death
Cause the world isnt burning and you can spend time to worry about this shite
I’m a french vegetarian living in France, and I couldn’t care less about this decision, the people arguing for either side are really wasting their time on this, who cares how it’s called honestly ? As long as the products are available in store and the labeling is different, which it always is, and very clearly: veggie based product try their best to make sure vegetarian and vegans will identify them easily and will know without a doubt that it is not meat. Who care that it is called a “burger”, “steak” or something else ?
I care that the government cares (or more specifically that it was bribed to do so by lobby groups)
Vegetarian or not, you should care about this. Propping up the meat and dairy industry is not in the interests of the public. This move is part of an agenda by the meat and dairy industry to deceive the public into thinking there’s something “natural” about the modern meat processing industry. It’s bullshit and if we had a government that actually worked in our interests instead of that of the fat cats, it would be the meat and dairy industry being forced to change their labelling, to highlight to the public the real costs of meat consumption.
Yea I’m paying 50% income tax to pay for a bunch of cronies circlejerking about this crap
You should care that people you’re paying taxes to are wasting time discussing and voting on special interest nonsense like this.
I should, and normally I would, but right now french politics is so crazy, this particular issue seems very low stakes in comparison.
Don’t really care either way, but I shall point and laugh.
I’d like to add that “I know who cares” my question is rethoric, those who care are idiots wasting parliament’s time.
I doubt it’ll actually go through.
They’re clearly labeled “veggie”, “vegitarian” or “vegan”, and consumers understand those labels to mean, at minimum, no meat.
“Sausage”, I can see how you could argue it has to contain meat to be called a sausage. I don’t agree, but I can understand the argument being made.
“Burger”, however. Is distinctly different than “hamburger”, in fact, we often substitute the prefix to fit whatever it is. (Not that hamburgers are made of ham, i know it comes from hamburg) Such as, “fish-burger” or “chicken-burger”, so why would “veggie-burger” be any more confusing than “fish-burger”?
“Sausage”, I can see how you could argue it has to contain meat to be called a sausage.
I don’t; the defining feature of sausage isn’t that it’s meat, it’s the fact that it’s stuffed in a tube. If people want to grind up veggies and stuff them in a tube, why would that not be a veggie sausage?
grind up veggies and stuff them in a tube, why would that not be a veggie sausage?
Salad dildo
If its just “sausage” alone I think there is an expectation that it contains about 10% Legally Meat™ though. Otherwise it should have some addition to its name to show it is something else.
“Sausage”, is a traditional name of minced meat stuffed into a sleeve, It exists in numerous cultures all over the world, and the principle is the same. So an argument could be made, that “Sausage” is inherently viewed as a meat product by default. And could be confusing for consumers.
Again, I would also disagree with that argument, but that doesn’t mean it can’t be made. Just because we disagree with something doesn’t mean it can’t be made.
I’ve never said something can’t be a “Veggie sausage”, like I said… It’s clearly labeled “Veggie”
It’s not just meat usually though.
It’s a mix of mostly meat, some flour or even vegetables (like onion) and seasoning. Sometimes you can even have cheesy sausages.
Some sausages here are as low as 11% of meat. Then again there is “product that’s comparable to meat” for a more significant portion, but rest flour and other things. You just can’t call minced ligaments and fat “meat” here but anyway I think sausages are more about the way they’re made and their shape than being made of meat
I am well aware. You don’t have to convince me of what I already think. I just said an argument can be made given the long lineage of the name “Sausage” and its respective local counterpart.
Regardless. Just to be super clear. As far as I’m concerned, EU can fuck off with this one, it’s not something that needs to be regulated on an EU level. Each member is perfectly capable of deciding themselves what can and can not be called “Sausage”.
This is just France trying to throw its weight around to appease their own farmers. Why they wanted to involve EU in it is beyond me.
Language is descriptive not prescriptive.
If “veggie sausage” conveys what I mean, then it’s perfectly acceptable language.
The only reason there’s even a question about this is because the meat industry is panicking.
I thought you could stuff anything into a bun shaped piece of bread and call it a burger.
Its not always clearly labeled tho. Last year my brother took me to a burger joint in Minneapolis and only after I thought the burger tasted very weird did I learn that it was an all vegan burger joint. Not complaining, but it should be clearly labeled what youre getting, IMO.
It should always be the case, even for places serving meat products. Alpha-gal syndrome is on the rise due to exploding tick populations, so when a restaurant advertises “gravy” it would be nice to know what kind it is. Another frustrating one is sausages - so many poultry or veggie sausages still use pig-based casings and either ignore it completely or list the ingredient as “collagen” and expect people to understand what that implies (collagen casing is almost always pork).
Cool so lets just put a label on anything that isn’t vegan. Problem solved.
You’re just making a really terrible, bad faith argument, for the sake of arguing, when the guy just wanted to share a situation where he was a bit confused as to what he was getting.
I would just enjoy having animal abuse products be labeled clearly but sure, you know me better than I know myself I guess?
I don’t think anyone is oblivious to the fact that burgers by default contains animal product. But I’m sure you’ll be the one to prove that wrong.
I think I know the place you’re talking about. I took my daughter there because she is vegetarian, but I can imagine that being offputting if you didn’t know ahead of time.
Can we change the title to “meat industry has been nagging about this non issue for years now, so the babies are finally getting their non issue resolved?”
Ffs sell your product but don’t be a bitch about that tiny speck of competition.
that tiny speck of competition.
It’s not that tiny anymore. The number of people choosing non-meat options is growing faster and faster as people realize that meat is expensive and bad for your health but the plant based alternatives are cheaper and good for you.
Also bad for your health in the long run, because meat is heating up the atmosphere and outcompetes nature that would otherwise store CO2.
yes but lets not pretend impossible burgers are a health food. they’re great but just like cow burgers i wouldn’t recommend eating them as a staple of your diet
All the vegans and vegetarians I know don’t eat impossible burgers very often at all, they’re more into actual vegan and vegetarian food.
pretending they are a health food is their marketing strategy. people switch to vegan because it’s perceived to be healthier.
in 5-10 years studies will show it’s bad for you and people will move away from it and meat will seen as the ‘healthy’ choice.
everything in food/nutrition is a fad.
People aren’t changing to vegetarian or vegan diets because of studies. They’re changing because they try it and they find themselves feeling better. The main barrier to a vegetarian or vegan lifestyle has always been the bias against ethnic dishes that often were vegetarian or vegan. And all of the European or American style dishes were all meat centered. There has been trend of people becoming more comfortable with a less European an American style diet. A lot of this actually can be chalked up to youtube. People aren’t stuck consuming only one corporately cultivated perspective on food prep and recipes. There is now a diversity that has never existed before.
This is going to backfire in a major way for them. Once we come up with new names for the vegan stuff that are generally accepted, the old stuff will look decidedly outdated.
did it work for milk? it won’t backfire.
they know what they’re doing - they’re trying to create an artificial distance between meat and modern plant alternatives. Can’t blame them for trying but the government should not be so happy to do their bidding.
