That doesn’t feel like a good argument, there are many reasons why a government descends into any of those, for one the CIA is known to disrupt any socialist/communist attempt at government and that can and did cause brutalism.
I mean if any attempt to give an alternative to the suffocating order of power is going to have to survive against the pressure of such power of course the only “successful” ones will have traits of authoritarism and strict even violent control of power itself.
Now don’t misunderstand me I’m not saying that authoritarism is good or even that communism would certainly be able to lead to a better rule, I’m arguing that we don’t know that because there are many other factors that can lead to the failures of a system.
Also really a blanket statement followed by generic stereotypes meant to undermine any other opinion will not lead to any intelligent discussion and betterment of any of the sides, we can do so much better.
I’m arguing that communism could work and that not working in our world doesn’t disprove it, for all that matters.
I also think that the concept of failure needs a little attention, I mean you could argue that democracy failed too, it’s supposed to give everyone an equal voice in the system and yet rich people have an incomparably stronger pull on elections and therefore decisions.
I would argue that humans value collectivism more than individualism, the last few centuries would see to go against this notion but for most of humanity we have lived in close knitted communities and valued our dépendance on each others. Even now the most individualist and powerful human would die in matter of months without help from the community (think of the water distribution and sanitation, no water = no food = death).
Thank you for arguing your point though, I appreciate it and it gave me very much food for thought, I’m not even denying that communism failed, it did, it has had its successes but it mostly failed it’s purpose, as did democracy. One of them pulled it off better though, of course democracy.
Why do you think communism “lead” to authoritarianism? Do you think communism is inherently authoritarian? Is the distinction between Marxism-Leninism and Anarcho-Communism and other ‘communisms’ meaningless to you?
The state is needed to enforce private property, not the lack of it.
Critically, you assume that authority is required for order, so obviously you’re unable to envision whatever it might be that anarchists are getting at.
Sure, communism is an ideal that does not exist in practice currently, but the point of an ideal is to work towards it. The “anarcho” part specifies complete opposition to authority in praxis as well. Strategies could include unionising, community building, mutual aid, permablitzing, FOSS, copyleft, and whatever else can undermine the current power structures while maintaining anarchist principles. Which explicitly excludes Marxist-Leninist strategies of coopting the state, or forming any other kind of heirarchy.
Using the state to make private property “illegal” might be a possible strategy, but it certainly isn’t an anarchist one.
Hypothetically, the moment that the state doesn’t exist, private property would be unenforceable/meaningless. How the state might be abolished is another question. While marxist-leninists might opt for a “trust me bro the state will dissolve once we reach true communism” strategy, anarchists again would not. Obviously it’s a tough question and an even tougher endeavour but it’s not something anarchists don’t have answers for.
Anarchist praxis is more grassroots focused, because obviously anarchy/anarcho-communism can’t happen overnight, and requires a profound change in social values. If you choose to believe that it’s impossible, I can’t blame you, but I would like to ask why.
Also you use private property and “property” interchangeably, but there’s a difference between personal property and private property. Abolishing private property isn’t about taking away your personal house and toothbrush, it’s about abolishing landlords, factory owners, and other “private” ownership of public/communal spaces.
Regarding unions, it depends whether or not they’ve been structured specifically without hierarchy in mind. In any case the point is that anarchist praxis is diverse and decentralised.
That’s just what you choose to believe. These’s no scientific proof that they make up some kind of transcendent truth about the human condition.
It’s entirely possible that the humans traits of greed and selfishness tend to become much more pronounced when humans are subjected to systems that reward those qualities.
Also, greed and selfishness are distinct from self-interest. And besides, self-interest doesn’t explain the entirety of human behaviour either.
Perhaps other systems that reward collaboration and egalitarianism and autonomy are not only possible, but also more sustainable that the shitshow we’ve got now, and all we need is for enough people to get out of the mental rut of believing capitalist bullshit about “humanity” and “life” just because it’s the status quo.
You lack substance, attack the idea not who voiced it. I am NO communist, but you are intellectually dishonest.
If you don’t like communism (the idea) critisize the idea. You don’t even seem to have read “das Kaptial” so how can you even know what Communism even is to begin with?
Authoritarianism, brutalism and opression are independent of economic model. In argentinia they had the most free market capitalism ever in the 80s and they are guilty of all three: Authoritarianism, brutalism and opression.
Please do not conflate these things. The idea and a person claiming to implement that idea are not the same thing. Communism is an idea. Tell us what exactly about that idea you take issue with. Nobody is saying USSR was an El Dorado of free speech. Tbh I would probably have been murdered in the USSR but I probably would have shared the same fate in many other places like post ware spain …
Democracy wouldn’t work if you tried to set it up in middle ages Europe either. All that proves is that the dominant kingdoms would close ranks and sabotage you, because you’re an obvious threat to their power.
It doesn’t mean that democracy is a bad system, or that it would never work. Although plenty of cogent and well lettered people over the centuries have spilled boatloads of ink arguing it was “unnatural” (goes against human nature) or “naive” (it might be nice, but the people can’t be trusted). But it still happened. It just took a while to get there.
I’m a bit of a gradualist in that respect, I admit. But that’s another topic.
Hamas is not the palestinian people. Israel’s government is not the Israeli people.
You should not support Hamas or The Israeli government regardless of whi h side did what.
The comment you’re replying to was specific about the difference between the people and the organisations in control of their states so I think you should too.
So who else is there to support? Who else is willing to fight back against the genocidal Israeli regime? Gi Joe, maybe? The starship Enterprise?
How many of the Palestinians fighting for Hamas actually gives a damn what Hamas stands for? Half? A quarter? Ten percent, maybe? I don’t know… but I can tell you this - all of them know, far better than you ever could, what Israel stands for. They have seen it for themselves for the last half-a-century. It was no different than all the Vietnamese people who fought with the Viet Cong - and the liberal hand-wringing over the “evil” Viet Cong sounded exactly the same then as yours do now.
This is what you “enlightened centrists” don’t seem to understand… when a genocidal enemy is giving you no other option but to resist using all means available, you don’t get to wait around for a political organisation that soothes all your moral hackles - you either join the people handing out AKs or you sit on the sidelines and wait for the mass-murder to claim you, too.
You think your “both-side-ism” is new? It’s not… it’s been the exact same bullcrap that has been used to smear all anti-colonialist warfare since the start of colonialism.
The fact that a cause is just does not make all of its participants good.
Hamas is a dictatorship, they have not allowed an election in near 20 years, and they do not hesitate to endanger the people of palestine intentionally to further their cause. You can condemn the Israeli government and their actions while also condemning hamas, it’s not a fucking sport where you pick sides and cheer for a team.
But that’s a tangent. You did that to the person before me too, just picking out a small section of a comment and responding to that as though everything else said wasn’t there.
I acknowledge the horrific things comitted by Israel towards palestine and palestinians. But i’m sorry, i find it a bit too hard a pill to swallow to cheer the other force intent on genocide launching rockets indiscriminately into civilians. Just as horrific a thought as cheering the IDF levelling another apartment building, no?
Do you think that if Hamas were to win that you would feel good supporting the genocide that would follow?
You’re jist buying into a political bandwagon. Support condemning the idfs actions and sanctions on israel for stolen land. But dont fucking cheer mindless violence. And its ok to acknowledge that everything isnt black and white. Somebody telling you not to support hamas isnt telling you that the people of palestine deserve death and misery.
The fact that a cause is just does not make all of its participants good.
Nobody said Hamas was any good. If there was anything good about them, Israel would not have funded them back in the late 80s.
while also condemning hamas
Again… who else is there that is willing to fight Israel? Superman? Captain Planet? You?
Get this through your head, liberal - people undergoing brutal colonization does not have the luxury of adhering to your limp-wristed armchair pearl-clutching. If you are going to condemn them for resisting, you might just as well take off your mask and join the pro-colonialism side - you’re not all that far removed from them ideologically, anyway.
Anyone who supports the idea of communism isn’t very intelligent
This isn’t fair. Anybody who can read through “das Kapital” must not only be very persistent and have endurance, no they also have to be fairly intelligent. I am surprised by the number of people who claim to have read “das Kapital” it has 4 VOLUMES ! 4 you can die if your bookshelf doesn’t hold and these 4 volumes fall on you.
Being a communist is just a function of your social class in society. If you are a laborer or poor you are naturally going to seek to pursue your interests for example you do not want to labor and have all the value you create go to the owners. You want to have a bigger share of the outcome of your labor. Communism is the consequence of this. Just like the royals and aristocrats and the captains of industry have the conservative ideology to further their interest so do the poor have communism. Neither conservatism nor communism make you smart or dumb. All it is is people pursuing their interest based on what position in society they hold. Both are ok. And none are dumb. It is inherently intelligent to pursue your own interest together with others who share that interest.
Edit: I am not getting into the support of any regimes or factions of wars as that is a can of worms i have no appetite for. 😅
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Anyone who makes a wack generic statement like that can’t be particularly “intelligent” either
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That doesn’t feel like a good argument, there are many reasons why a government descends into any of those, for one the CIA is known to disrupt any socialist/communist attempt at government and that can and did cause brutalism.
I mean if any attempt to give an alternative to the suffocating order of power is going to have to survive against the pressure of such power of course the only “successful” ones will have traits of authoritarism and strict even violent control of power itself.
Now don’t misunderstand me I’m not saying that authoritarism is good or even that communism would certainly be able to lead to a better rule, I’m arguing that we don’t know that because there are many other factors that can lead to the failures of a system.
Also really a blanket statement followed by generic stereotypes meant to undermine any other opinion will not lead to any intelligent discussion and betterment of any of the sides, we can do so much better.
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I’m arguing that communism could work and that not working in our world doesn’t disprove it, for all that matters.
I also think that the concept of failure needs a little attention, I mean you could argue that democracy failed too, it’s supposed to give everyone an equal voice in the system and yet rich people have an incomparably stronger pull on elections and therefore decisions.
I would argue that humans value collectivism more than individualism, the last few centuries would see to go against this notion but for most of humanity we have lived in close knitted communities and valued our dépendance on each others. Even now the most individualist and powerful human would die in matter of months without help from the community (think of the water distribution and sanitation, no water = no food = death).
Thank you for arguing your point though, I appreciate it and it gave me very much food for thought, I’m not even denying that communism failed, it did, it has had its successes but it mostly failed it’s purpose, as did democracy. One of them pulled it off better though, of course democracy.
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You don’t have the foggiest idea what you are even talking about, do you?
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FTFY.
Why do you think communism “lead” to authoritarianism? Do you think communism is inherently authoritarian? Is the distinction between Marxism-Leninism and Anarcho-Communism and other ‘communisms’ meaningless to you?
What do you think communism means?
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The state is needed to enforce private property, not the lack of it.
Critically, you assume that authority is required for order, so obviously you’re unable to envision whatever it might be that anarchists are getting at.
Sure, communism is an ideal that does not exist in practice currently, but the point of an ideal is to work towards it. The “anarcho” part specifies complete opposition to authority in praxis as well. Strategies could include unionising, community building, mutual aid, permablitzing, FOSS, copyleft, and whatever else can undermine the current power structures while maintaining anarchist principles. Which explicitly excludes Marxist-Leninist strategies of coopting the state, or forming any other kind of heirarchy.
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Using the state to make private property “illegal” might be a possible strategy, but it certainly isn’t an anarchist one.
Hypothetically, the moment that the state doesn’t exist, private property would be unenforceable/meaningless. How the state might be abolished is another question. While marxist-leninists might opt for a “trust me bro the state will dissolve once we reach true communism” strategy, anarchists again would not. Obviously it’s a tough question and an even tougher endeavour but it’s not something anarchists don’t have answers for.
Anarchist praxis is more grassroots focused, because obviously anarchy/anarcho-communism can’t happen overnight, and requires a profound change in social values. If you choose to believe that it’s impossible, I can’t blame you, but I would like to ask why.
Also you use private property and “property” interchangeably, but there’s a difference between personal property and private property. Abolishing private property isn’t about taking away your personal house and toothbrush, it’s about abolishing landlords, factory owners, and other “private” ownership of public/communal spaces.
Regarding unions, it depends whether or not they’ve been structured specifically without hierarchy in mind. In any case the point is that anarchist praxis is diverse and decentralised.
Actually an entire state made out of democratic worker unions sounds pretty good. Although I personally would prefer no state.
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Sounds like council communism I think?
Communism is as much of a fairy tale as the Free Market.
For exactly the same reasons: humans are greedy and selfish.
That’s just what you choose to believe. These’s no scientific proof that they make up some kind of transcendent truth about the human condition.
It’s entirely possible that the humans traits of greed and selfishness tend to become much more pronounced when humans are subjected to systems that reward those qualities.
Also, greed and selfishness are distinct from self-interest. And besides, self-interest doesn’t explain the entirety of human behaviour either.
Perhaps other systems that reward collaboration and egalitarianism and autonomy are not only possible, but also more sustainable that the shitshow we’ve got now, and all we need is for enough people to get out of the mental rut of believing capitalist bullshit about “humanity” and “life” just because it’s the status quo.
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Name a country where communism was adopted in the first place
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You haven’t used any of the terms in that comment correctly, amazing.
I can’t provide you with examples if I don’t know what you think communism means.
You lack substance, attack the idea not who voiced it. I am NO communist, but you are intellectually dishonest. If you don’t like communism (the idea) critisize the idea. You don’t even seem to have read “das Kaptial” so how can you even know what Communism even is to begin with?
Authoritarianism, brutalism and opression are independent of economic model. In argentinia they had the most free market capitalism ever in the 80s and they are guilty of all three: Authoritarianism, brutalism and opression.
Please do not conflate these things. The idea and a person claiming to implement that idea are not the same thing. Communism is an idea. Tell us what exactly about that idea you take issue with. Nobody is saying USSR was an El Dorado of free speech. Tbh I would probably have been murdered in the USSR but I probably would have shared the same fate in many other places like post ware spain …
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… name one country where communism was adopted in the first place lol
Democracy wouldn’t work if you tried to set it up in middle ages Europe either. All that proves is that the dominant kingdoms would close ranks and sabotage you, because you’re an obvious threat to their power.
It doesn’t mean that democracy is a bad system, or that it would never work. Although plenty of cogent and well lettered people over the centuries have spilled boatloads of ink arguing it was “unnatural” (goes against human nature) or “naive” (it might be nice, but the people can’t be trusted). But it still happened. It just took a while to get there.
I’m a bit of a gradualist in that respect, I admit. But that’s another topic.
Says the person so smart they capitalize the word communism.
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Good job projecting there… I award you ten out of ten PragerU coins for that one.
Oh, it has nothing to do with the fact that Israel is a genocidal white supremacist settler-colonialist state?
Found the tankie.
If you don’t understand the meaning of certain words it might be a good idea to not use them, no?
Ugly, Dumb, Tankie scum.
Hold on while I whip out the world’s smallest violin for you, fascist.
Like a school yard kid getting called out: “You’re the fascist”
Cry more tankie scum. Fascist supporting dipshit.
No, don’t run off, fascist… I swear that little violin is down there somewhere. Just hold on a bit longer, okay?
Hamas is not the palestinian people. Israel’s government is not the Israeli people.
You should not support Hamas or The Israeli government regardless of whi h side did what.
The comment you’re replying to was specific about the difference between the people and the organisations in control of their states so I think you should too.
So who else is there to support? Who else is willing to fight back against the genocidal Israeli regime? Gi Joe, maybe? The starship Enterprise?
How many of the Palestinians fighting for Hamas actually gives a damn what Hamas stands for? Half? A quarter? Ten percent, maybe? I don’t know… but I can tell you this - all of them know, far better than you ever could, what Israel stands for. They have seen it for themselves for the last half-a-century. It was no different than all the Vietnamese people who fought with the Viet Cong - and the liberal hand-wringing over the “evil” Viet Cong sounded exactly the same then as yours do now.
This is what you “enlightened centrists” don’t seem to understand… when a genocidal enemy is giving you no other option but to resist using all means available, you don’t get to wait around for a political organisation that soothes all your moral hackles - you either join the people handing out AKs or you sit on the sidelines and wait for the mass-murder to claim you, too.
You think your “both-side-ism” is new? It’s not… it’s been the exact same bullcrap that has been used to smear all anti-colonialist warfare since the start of colonialism.
The fact that a cause is just does not make all of its participants good.
Hamas is a dictatorship, they have not allowed an election in near 20 years, and they do not hesitate to endanger the people of palestine intentionally to further their cause. You can condemn the Israeli government and their actions while also condemning hamas, it’s not a fucking sport where you pick sides and cheer for a team.
But that’s a tangent. You did that to the person before me too, just picking out a small section of a comment and responding to that as though everything else said wasn’t there.
I acknowledge the horrific things comitted by Israel towards palestine and palestinians. But i’m sorry, i find it a bit too hard a pill to swallow to cheer the other force intent on genocide launching rockets indiscriminately into civilians. Just as horrific a thought as cheering the IDF levelling another apartment building, no?
Do you think that if Hamas were to win that you would feel good supporting the genocide that would follow?
You’re jist buying into a political bandwagon. Support condemning the idfs actions and sanctions on israel for stolen land. But dont fucking cheer mindless violence. And its ok to acknowledge that everything isnt black and white. Somebody telling you not to support hamas isnt telling you that the people of palestine deserve death and misery.
Nobody said Hamas was any good. If there was anything good about them, Israel would not have funded them back in the late 80s.
Again… who else is there that is willing to fight Israel? Superman? Captain Planet? You?
Get this through your head, liberal - people undergoing brutal colonization does not have the luxury of adhering to your limp-wristed armchair pearl-clutching. If you are going to condemn them for resisting, you might just as well take off your mask and join the pro-colonialism side - you’re not all that far removed from them ideologically, anyway.
This isn’t fair. Anybody who can read through “das Kapital” must not only be very persistent and have endurance, no they also have to be fairly intelligent. I am surprised by the number of people who claim to have read “das Kapital” it has 4 VOLUMES ! 4 you can die if your bookshelf doesn’t hold and these 4 volumes fall on you.
Being a communist is just a function of your social class in society. If you are a laborer or poor you are naturally going to seek to pursue your interests for example you do not want to labor and have all the value you create go to the owners. You want to have a bigger share of the outcome of your labor. Communism is the consequence of this. Just like the royals and aristocrats and the captains of industry have the conservative ideology to further their interest so do the poor have communism. Neither conservatism nor communism make you smart or dumb. All it is is people pursuing their interest based on what position in society they hold. Both are ok. And none are dumb. It is inherently intelligent to pursue your own interest together with others who share that interest.
Edit: I am not getting into the support of any regimes or factions of wars as that is a can of worms i have no appetite for. 😅
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