“8gb is comparable to 16gb on Windows”
yeah until the swap memory kills the SSD
8gb of ram on the Apple silicone is not the same as 8gb ram on an intel based chipset. The Apple silicon for mac is so much more efficient, watch the keynote on the original release of the M1 , it explains how it works
How is this any different than what Microsoft is doing with their Surface “Pro” line?
i always get extra storage and ram on my macbooks. i feel you double the life of a macbook when you double the ram. (i’m typing this on my 13yo macbook pro 13). upgraded to a SSD as well in the last few years. soon to be replaced by a pc and handed down to my kids/family laptop. the problem isn’t that it starts with 8gb or whatever. problem is that that it’s expensive.
Are you getting another Mac, or PC?
Building a gaming pc. About 20 years on a Mac.
Even base Steam Deck has 16GB ram, lol
They charge too much for 8gb, but so many articles are coming out that just fundamentally either misunderstand or intentionally misrepresent memory utilization and memory utilization metrics, and they’re really muddying the waters around whether or not the average person needs more than 8gb. I still believe the answer is “no” at least when using Apple Silicon. That doesn’t mean I think it’s sensible to pay $1600 for a computer with only 8gb of RAM, but let’s focus the discussion around the right thing: Apple charges too much for 8gb of RAM. The fact that the option is there is not a bad thing, and in fact would be actively a good thing if they priced more reasonably, because it would mean that there is a more affordable entry point for those people who do get by just fine on 8gb.
Even relatively casual users who load up on browser tabs and inefficient Electron apps (household names like Slack, Teams, Discord, etc.) can find performance compromised by running out of RAM.
Based on what? I have never found this to be true on personal machines. Perhaps if you load up on browser tabs and actively use all of them frequently then you’ll run into issues. That isn’t what most people who use a lot of tabs do, though. The tab is left open as a sort of lower-commitment for of a bookmark. The number of tabs actively used is generally not anywhere near equal to the number of tabs open. Swap handles this beautifully, and additionally, modern browsers are increasingly incorporating tab sleeping to help make both memory and power utilization of a lot of open tabs more efficient. Tab hoarders on desktop are probably tab hoarders on mobile, too, and you don’t often hear complaints about how iPhones don’t have enough memory because of all the tabs.
Electron apps are not as easily dealt with, but I don’t buy that the average user has more than one or two of those running at a time. If you do, then yes, you’ll need more RAM. That doesn’t mean the lower-RAM option shouldn’t exist, though.
As I write this, with just a handful of browser tabs open, Slack, and a distraction-free writing app (iA Writer—it’s great), I’m consuming just about 11GB on my M2 MacBook Air.
Apps will use it if it’s there. That doesn’t immediately mean you’ll notice performance degradation if it’s not. I’m using about double that RAM with roughly the same set of open stuff, not because what I’m doing right now demands 20gb of RAM, but because the RAM is there and isn’t needed for anything else, so the system can’t be bothered to care, and neither can the apps. A lot of modern software is garbage collected, meaning technically unused memory just sits there as long as more memory is available, because there’s no reason to take the compute hit of cleaning stuff up if it’s not hurting anything by being left behind. Software will intentionally bloat its memory utilization to fill the available memory, that is not the same thing as you “needing” that much RAM.
I would be really curious to see what the conversations would be if the current MacBook Pro were actually just called the MacBook, but was otherwise the same machine offered for the same price. My guess is we’d all be having the real discussion, which is that the 8gb base is actually just fine but the base price is too high (just like we did when the M2 MacBook Air launched, still with just 8gb of RAM, but for $200 more than the outgoing M1 MacBook Air).
MacBook Air M2 is worse than M1 in almost every way, because now you actually have to pay $200 extra to upgrade to 512GB storage just to get the same speed as the old M1 256GB!
It actually highlights just how much slower is swap compared to the main memory once they made swap slightly slower, and how little is 8GB, causing swapping very easily.
In normal usage you’d never notice the speed difference. The 256GB chip is still fast. When swapping, latency of the underlying storage device is what really makes the difference and latency is pretty much the same for these chips.
What matters is IOPS, and IOPS is half.
Literally even the YouTube reviewers noticed M2 256GB was slower! Even those who claim 8GB is enough!
I recorded my band’s whole album in Logic on a base model M1 Air and never once noticed a slowdown or lag or it swapping to disk or whatever. And usually I’d have a few Safari tabs open in the background while I did it.
Would I complain if I had 16 GB of memory? Nope, but I also don’t feel the need to complain about 8 because it literally hasn’t affected me, even when doing more than browsing Reddit or watching videos.
Never understood why Macs don’t come with 16 (or even 32GB) base RAM. If I’m paying 1100 for a device, I don’t expect to have the same amount of ram as a £250 Chromebook, as that’s unacceptable, especially when it’s £200 to go to 16GB, when in reality, that should be for 64 or 128GB of RAM
Watch this video in full. 8gb ram days are over.
Given the performance difference, I’m actually really impressed how well the 8GB one kept up. Sure, it was slower because it has to spend time compressing & decompressing ram, but it was surprising to see how little overhead that actually cost.
That’s to say nothing of how much Apple charges for more ram, because that’s just egregious.
You get best display, best processor, best battery, best build, best speakers and a lot more for that price. The RAM is not an issue.
Also, if you think you can get 128GB of this quality RAM for 200 dollars…
So how much does 128GB of LPDDR5X cost a manufacturer since you seem to be an expert on pricing?
LPDDR5X
I’m not making any claims about price, except I know it’s way beyond 200 dollars based on common sense.
Turns out the world’s most profitable company makes decisions that boost its bottom line, who woulda thunk?
Sure sucks for us consumers, but the rest of the laptop is compelling enough people will still pony up for extra RAM rather than leaving the ecosystem for an inferior x86 Windows laptop. And Apple knows it.
Every article: Imagine 8gb “In a few years time”.
The base pro from 10 years ago had 8gb. 10 YEARS! We are way past “in a few years” already.
My 2011 15” pro came with 8GB. 12 years later and nothing has changed.
Meanwhile the new iPhones have 8GB ram.
nothing has changed
that MacBook had upgradable RAM, so really things have changed for the worse
The thing that nobody seems to admit in this thread however, is that every Mac sold today has hundreds of megabytes of RAM basically. The sold state drives serve as RAM albeit at a slower rate, that won’t be noticed much at all by the average entry level home computer owner. In the past we always had this virtual RAM, going back for 20 years or more, but it used to be very very slow as it used spinning hard drives. SSD virtual RAM was a game changer.
the problem isn’t whether 8 GB are enough for the average joe. the problem is Apple are charging 1599$ for an 8 GB laptop. even for that price, 16 GB are really pushing it — especially with only 512 GB of storage space.
so yes, the problem is Apple are being greedy.
so yes, the problem is Apple are being greedy.
Apple does not have a monopoly on laptops. You can always buy an intel laptop with windows or linux if Apple’s value proposition does not work for you. E.g. one of my work laptops is a Dell with 32GB of RAM.
Yeah my argument isn’t “no 8GB laptops” (though let’s be honest, at $1,100 for even a MacBook Air they COULD do 16 without messing up their margins).
The argument is: no $1,600 MacBook PRO laptops with 8GB.
Max Tech’s video here does a great job of showing just how insufficient 8GB really truly is. With NO difference but RAM, even with some pretty basic everyday workloads, the 16GB version is VASTLY faster. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmWPd7uEYEY
A 512GB SSD costs $29 and 16GB LPDDR5 costs $20, and that’s fucking RETAIL.
Those specs should be base in the Air, with a max of 32GB/1TB in the Airs, and the Pros should start at 64GB/2TB for their base.
30% profit margin on a 1600 laptop is $480 profit per machine.
They can and should upgrade the base, hell iPhone base starts at 6GBs of RAM…
It’d be like $450 profit per base MacBook instead of $480, it’s just nickle and diming their customers.
Watch this. People who think 8gb ram macs will last long are dreaming in the coming age of AI integration.
Lenovo, HP and Dell all sell variants of their ‘professional’ business laptops with 8GB of RAM in the same price range as the base MBP.
Apple offering a wider range of configuration options makes the lineup MORE Pro, not less because business/enterprise customers WANT that flexibility.
The faux outrage at Apple - and only at Apple - is more than a little bit tiresome.
like what? shows me 2023 14" in business laptop from them that costs 1599$ but only gives 8GB of RAM.
Just go to their business line and filter by 8gb of ram. Lenovo shows 26 in their Thinkpad line.
A specific model for $1600:
Tim “And we think you’re gonna buy it anyway!”
Sadly he was true.
Source: I bought a M2 MBP last year base spec because I couldn’t justify the extra costs. Put the money towards a T7 SSD
And they get away with it because their average consumer thinks they need a $2k laptop to write essays or browse twitter so they aren’t even sweating it with 8gb
Well, I despise Apple, because in addition to being greedy, they’re destroying this planet with waste (planned obsolescence, proprietary cable types, soldered everything…) …and all for short term gains.
That being said, I have nowhere else to go, because Apple is the only company that can give me the product that I need. Intel, and Microsoft Windows are a clown show, and have been since forever (I have a Windows desktop too… had many in the past). I’m a software dev.
If I had a viable option, I’d drop Apple in an instant. Actually, I have dropped the iPhone and iPad already (call it courage), just waiting for a great (quiet, low power and high performing) laptop that will run something similar to OSX, …and unfortunately, I don’t think that Microsoft is ever going to be able to deliver that. I wish Linux could, but not until there’s one “consumer” distro, …and that will also never happen.
The main problem is that it’s not upgradable, if it was upgradable you can give me 2GB on the base model and I wouldn’t care, RAM is cheap.
The situation now is you spend 1599$, then in a few years if you want more RAM/Storage you need to buy a new laptop again because it’s impossible to upgrade.
What does that matter? The rest of the laptop is top of the line. Best display, best brightness, best battery, best build, super fast CPU. What’s a comparable laptop that’s cheaper?
They’ll keep doing it as long as people keep buying it. Why charge less when people are always willing to pay more?
The problem isn’t Apple being greedy, they are a profit making company……that’s what they are supposed to do. the REAL problem is we the consumers rewarding their greed by continuously buying the products regardless of how they shaft us. That’s the real problem. Just because you can afford a premium device doesn’t mean you are not being shafted….it just means you can afford to be shafted!
If we all stopped buying Apple products for 3yrs…… oh they will make changes….they are a business after all.
The problem isn’t Apple being greedy, they are a profit making company……that’s what they are supposed to do.
Sorry, I have to object to that defence. It’s absurd nonsense in the highest degree. Many companies are commercial. Banks are commercial entities, but what separates them from those lenders that charge 1000% (e.g. loan sharks) is a level of unscrupulousness that is beyond the pale. Just as companies extorting their customers is beyond the pale. Being a commercial company does not justify rampant rapaciousness.
Basically, what you are saying is that the highly knowledgeable accounting and marketing teams at Apple know exactly what they can charge for their computers and upgrades, and after 30 years they are really really good at knowing what consumers will pay. They must know better than anyone here on Reddit as none of us currently manage the largest market cap company in the world…
This is why closed ecosystems can backfire greatly. There is no other MacOS device you can buy with reasonable built in storage.
Really?
I once shared a similar opinion and also suggesting a more premium screen option and also suggested that perhaps Apple are not as innovative as they used to be but got bombarded with downvotes and aggressiveness by Apple fans and apologists saying things like, “if you cannot afford premium (for the record, I have several expensive Apple devices), then get a crappy Samsung Galaxy or something with its poor battery life and lack of tablet-optimized apps while we enjoy premium quality.”
It was then that further cemented for me that Apple (as well as many other corporations and even people) likely has a crazy amount of loud, arrogant, condescending, rude (but loyal) fans on Reddit (or the internet in general) who will defend them until the end and these are the people who encourage Apple to be complacent and perhaps even greedy.
Apple also astroturfs reddit quite badly (just like microsoft does, and certain film stars).
I’m an Apple fan lol, some zealots exist but there’s lots of paid shills too.
That’s something that honestly has refreshed me browsing r/Leatherman. Yeah, Leatherman fanboys will rant against Gerber and SOG tools all day, but they’re also mad shitting on Leatherman when they misstep.
The funny thing is that a LOT of those that say things like that, have an iPhone SE and a 10 year old MacBook and talk as if those that got a 1800 dollar Galaxy Fold are poor.
Obviously there’s nothing wrong with those. Just saying it’s a weird ass mindset to pretend your cheaper and significantly older product is better because it has some brand and not another.
Apple really did amazingly well with their marketing. They managed to make some people believe that a literal consumer product, that sells into the hundreds of millions each year, is some sort of ultra premium item that’s unattainable and brings some prestige above the rest and it generates some inexplicable weird fetish.
I have never understood the people who feel the need to white knight some mega corp.
Neither Samsung nor Apple are gonna sleep with you, bro.
I’m going to provide some context – I may be downvoted.
The problem isn’t that the cost of the ram individually, it’s the cost of the entire SKU at scale. Which is what people forget.
The reason you can buy 64gb sticks cheap is for a few reasons – it’s a singular component that has to compete in a single category and also the volume at which it is manufactured at makes this price possible.
Each Apple configuration is mostly unique in the sense that each board design is its own because components are soldered in.
They have a handful of LPDDR5x capacities and mix-and-match them as needed.
Like 1 8GB chip for a M3 with 8GB of RAM, 2 8GB chips for a M3 with 16GB of RAM, 2 12GB chips for a M3 with 24GB of RAM, 3 6GB chips for a M3 Pro with 18GB of RAM, 3 12GB chips for a M3 Pro with 36GB of RAM, etc., etc. with the M3s using 1 or 2 channel RAM, the M3 Pros using 3 channel RAM and the M3 Maxes using 4 channel RAM and the top spec RAM configuration being 4 32GB (128GB total) modules.
In fact the M3 with the 8GB configuration literally has an empty RAM slot on the motherboard they didn’t populate. They likely have three motherboard configurations - dual channel, three channel and four channel motherboards with a M3, M3 Pro or M3 Max respectively.
While there is some truth in your statement, when you look at the TCO of an Apple Device, it lasts a lot longer than any other device on the market, for this I’m personally happy to pay more and again only my opinion. Try getting even 3 years out of anything that runs Windows.
The R&D Apple are sinking into making their own processors and software run more efficiently is years ahead of others especially when it comes to battery life.
Along with using iCloud, your Mac will manage your storage and offload to the cloud. I think the hardware software combo is on point and whilst seen as expensive, is parity to the same offering from other tier 1 vendors.
Just priced the 14” MacBook Pro with 18Gb of Memory and 512SSD it’s still cheaper than the MS studio laptop with the same specs. But the M3 CPU will kill the 13th Gen useless intel i7 chips. Mac was $80 cheaper than the MS offering.
You’d be lucky to get 4 hours out of the Studio battery and all your memory will be gone in edge/chrome tabs anyway.
An extra 128gb for $100 is a complete ripoff
They don’t see that as a problem…
Thats why I went for a $1200 M1 Pro fuck the M3
For 1599, I would expect at least 16Gb/1Tb
It’s a completely different product but FFS the $300 Xbox Series S has 10GB of RAM. It’s unacceptable in such an expensive product.
Minimum of 24GB/1TB if no expansion.
For $1599, it should be 32GB RAM, 2TB storage.
For $1599, I should get 500 lbs. of repetitive, manufactured, internet outrage!
How will I feed my kids without a daily dose of outrage?
My only real skill is being outraged about some phone or computer spec, regardless of the real world utility or user experience, so I’ll be out of work if I don’t work up a good lather of outrage!
What outrage do we have planned for tomorrow? I need to eat!
For $1599, it should be 64GB RAM, 4TB storage
Am I doing it right?
DOUBLE IT!!!
Probably the reason why sales on the Mac are down significantly.
When People cant afford it anymore, this makes sense
It’s only a problem if Tim thinks it’s a problem. Unfortunately he’s more concerned with profits and shareholders than he is about customers.
There is no problem. Is just capitalism greed at its finest.
I would wager to guess that mass majority of MacBook users don’t actually know the amount of ram they need. The ones that do need more computing power actually know how much they need and will pay for the Apple price unfortunately. What people see as an insult and a problem is nothing more than a solution for Apple. The computer will function fine for the majority of the people that just want a new MacBook to stream their Netflix or use for work/school.
Meanwhile even android phones have 12-16GB LPDDR5X RAM. I know it’s not apples to apples comparison but at least I have apple in my comparison lol