Federal agents: “No.”
Your move, Walz. Your constituents are being murdered in the street. Are you going to grow a pair and actually do something? Or are you just gonna keep talking like a worthless fucking politician?
I nodded along with this comment, and then got thinking about the nation-state-military caliber funding that ICE was handed recently.
And, after a bit of mental breadth-first search of where that train of thought could have led, I was left with a frown thinking “this could get so much more bloody so quickly.”
Aipac really nuetered him during the campaign, since then he hasnt done anything noteworthy.
He most likely actually is involved in some kind of dirty dealing. Probably nothing like what the conservatives are screaming about, likely more to do with some improper donations or dealings with China, the kind of boring, low-level violation that gets liberals so twisted up that they fold at the slightest pressure.
Meanwhile the GOP will openly fund a candidate with like, a mountain of stolen Aztek gold and have sacks of Russian money parachute onto their convention stage with a line of chained sex slaves behind them and they’ll shrug and go “whoopsie!” and the media cycle will move on with sports and weather.
What Aztek gold may look like:
Might be the best reply I’ve gotten all day about anything.
Yeah, Walz, why aren’t you personally removing armed state military from the streets? Walz, why didn’t you start a revolution yet, Walz? Too much of a pussy, Walz? I almost stood up from my sofa, that’s how I am angry at you, Walz.
If I were in his shoes, I’d be really fucking reluctant to give any order that would result in a bloodbath. I mean, we can all guess by now that it will end up that way, but I don’t think we should be so quick to condemn a man that doesn’t lightly order violence.
Pressure him into taking action, because that pressure may ease the weight of responsibility, but understand that it’s a heavy weight to bear. Pretty sure he didn’t go into that job expecting to face a civil war.
What’s with this apologism for feckless liberals? He doesn’t have to order the National Guard to open fire on ICE, but he could start with, you know, not sending state police to brutalize protestors at the site of the most recent public execution.
I don’t give a fuck if he feels a heavy weight, it’s nothing compared to the families of the dead. Dead because of an institution his party funded just as often as the Republicans did. It’s time for him to rise to the occasion or (infinitely more likely) time for us to recognize there’s no spine in his body and it depends entirely on us - which means he’s against us.
What’s with this apologism for feckless liberals?
It wasn’t intended to absolve him from the responsibility of having to do something, if that’s how it came across. In the context of people calling on him to mobilise the NG and use them to drive out ICE, I wanted to point out that it would be akin to starting open civil war, and that any responsible commander would and should grapple with that decision. It’s not about excusing so much as understanding.
sending state police to brutalize protestors at the site of the most recent public execution.
I didn’t know that at the time I made the comment. Like I said, I was mostly seeing people call for military action left and right.
I don’t give a fuck if he feels a heavy weight, it’s nothing compared to the families of the dead.
And if he orders the NG to deploy against ICE, there will be even more dead and more grieving families as a result of his orders. I think you’re a little too quick to dismiss the weight of that decision. Yes, people will die if he does nothing as well, which is why he has to do something. I’m not excusing his inaction.
In an escalating time of violence and rage, I’m trying to remind people of their humanity: Pressure him to do his job, by all means, but do so in full awareness what you’re asking of him.
I think the most acceptable course of action at this point would be having the NG shadow ICE everywhere they go, with instructions to protect the safety and civil rights of the protestors and other humans (regardless of citizenship status).
Then the ball is in ICE’s court. Let them be the ones who escalate.
But yes, Tim Walz’s approach so far has been to sic his state police on the protestors and send the NG out for donut-and-coffee photo ops while doing nothing to meaningfully protect the citizens. I won’t give him a pass on that, it’s the job he signed up for and got paid our tax dollars to do.
I won’t give him a pass on that, it’s the job he signed up for and got paid our tax dollars to do.
And you shouldn’t give him a pass either. Let’s hope his heart is in the right place and his courage will catch up.
Well put.
Yeah, that’s kind of how democracy works. There should be direct and obvious connection between actions that drastic and the will of the people. Starting a war with the government isn’t something that a governor should be able to just do with one order.
Exactly. That such a decision requires public pressure is, for once, a system working as it should. The question is which pressure he’ll give in to: The feds’ demands or his people’s.
so far he has not even made words of criticizing or threatening them, its all empty words, super-non confrontational.
He absolutely should do something effective, agreed. He’s made Holocaust comparisons, if I caught that right, and “blasted” the federal government, but right now it appears to be mostly rhetorical posturing (which is still important preparation for any non-rhetorical face-off, but isn’t yet enough to effectively stop them).
I understand that it’s a delicate situation to be placed in, because confrontation may prompt the deranged terrorists into targeting him, which would most likely escalate into civil conflict of some scale. If that happened, he’d want all ducks lined up and ready to make that conflict as quick and decisive as possible so the rest of their force doesn’t have a foothold and hopefully decides to write off the incident rather than continuing to escalate.
He’s in too critical a position to just do nothing out of fear, but he’s also a civil administrator with military training handling what’s liable to become a military affair with civilians in the crossfire. It’s a fucking powder keg and he doesn’t want to blow it up if he can avoid it, whether for his own sake or for that of his people.
Still, like I said, keep pressuring him. His people need to show “we’re willing to fight these terrorists, whether with or without you.” If he’s hesitant to inflict this on his people, it eases the weight of the decision. If he’s hesitant for his own sake, it risks making him the enemy. Better to pressure him into an organised response than to wait for an uncontrolled one.
Me saying “I understand why he’s holding back so far” doesn’t mean “He should keep doing that”. It’s an appeal to remember the human that’s being faced with a terrible choice, so that efforts to pressure him may do so in a conscious, focused manner.
But he must be pressured.
Cut power to their buildings and to the hotels they’re staying. Now that it’s super cold out. Threaten them with freezing. Then order a slow as fuck inquiry to find out why there is no power and clutch your pearls.
If you genuinely want to disrupt them, you can.
Otherwise STFU with the rhetorical posturing.
Lead or get out of the way. Enough.
Walz has the power and authority to simply call up the National Guard, which he rightfully commands, and say “Hey keep ICE out of the city.” Same with the cops.
The president can send orders to deploy the NG here or there, but he doesn’t have control over their orders or what they’re supposed to be doing exactly. That still falls to governors. And the Minnesota national guard command has already indicated that they would follow orders from the governor and uphold the constitution over the president. And there’s absolutely no love between the Minneapolis police and ICE.
I don’t know why we’re not actually acting likes States. We’re “United States” not one big, single state called “America.” States have the power, the Federal Government works for the states.
It seems likely to me he/ dems know this will tip off a civil war and they are still hoping to find a different way of dealing with this. Something less bloody. No decent person wants to make the choice that is the final straw before thousands die. Also, even if they recognize it to be inevitable it is necessary to wait until the masses are aligned. The way you-and all the rest of us- are getting fed up is a sign the fruit is almost ripe.
Or they could just be compromised cowards. It doesn’t really matter actually, at some point the tide will flood the city streets and then someone will show up to lead.
schumer and jefferies wants to fund ICE, we know thier allegience.
Nobody with half a brain thinks an actual civil war is happening in the next several decades at least, but the idea holds that they think there’s a “high road” that will lead to everyone getting along and being civil to each other, and most importantly to them, establishment democrats keeping their positions of secured power with their old money and new donors.
Civil unrest is absolutely going to get worse and worse, but that’s not what the current DNC leadership cares at all about, if you follow the money you realize that there’s only one political party and they’re doing a kayfabe act to keep people hooked on the drama and narrative, despite actual lives being lost as a consequence.
Their only actual fear right now is that we sweep out the incumbent democrat leadership this November.
that is why they toned down on politically attacking zohran in NYC, the more people voting can hurt the Old guard dnc.
Democrats have more to gain from ICE shooting people than Trump does.
If he and the mayor really care, why don’t they use city police to enforce the laws ICE and CBP are violating on a daily basis? They may have federal immunity but they are committing state crimes in broad daylight like it’s going out of style. Arrest some criminals like you’re supposed to. Not an all-out war between police forces, just, you know, regular law enforcement.
it seems like ice/cpd would be easily scared off if any police or armed presence suddenly appear, right now they both arnt doing anything. trumpis going to escalate it anyways, and politically they are trying to turn the state towards the gop out of frustation that the dems arnt doing anything.
Hahahahaha. Like they’ll listen to anything he says.
Ffs, performative politics is all the dems know how to do. We want action, they want status quo or maybe slightly better, but they certainly don’t wanna go to the mattresses. That’s how we got here.
“Pwease weave. Pwetty pwease.”
Grow some fucking balls and DO something besides jack your massaging jaw, you useless old fuck.
Walz is a typical democrat.
He talks a big game and has great bluster.
but when the cards hit the table, he rolls over, shows his belly and shits himself
He should have activated the national guard weeks ago. He should have had them on the streets everywhere that ICE was at, Following them where ever they went, with orders to intervene anytime they stepped out of line.
He should have been ordering every state law enforcement agency to follow ICE, and arrest them every time they abducted a child, every time they assaulted an innocent civilian, anytime they’ve murdered an innocent person.
but instead of doing anything useful and proactive to protect his state, he keeps going on twitter and begging “pwease mistur pwesident, stahp hwurting my pepulz. pretty pwease?”
Oh shut the fuck up, honestly. I think I’m going to delete Lemmy, the amount of fucking no bodies who have never had a hard day in their life calling for State governments to police federal agencies and blood to run in the streets is madness. You all have no idea what you’re actually advocating for.
Oh look, someone using their imaginary narrative of things no one said to try and derail the topic.
Gee, I wonder what group of people would have a vested interest in trying to derail this topic, by claiming people are calling for blood in the streets… while ICE is literally pouring gallons of blood in the street every day that they never seem to have a single critical comment on. 🤔
Fuck ICE
Don’t let the door hit you in the ass on the way out
Please do delete Lemmy, we don’t need liberal apologists here.
Hes not even a fuckin American. Just another foreign agent shit stirrer.
Bruh lol
I’m about 95% sure that there’s dirt on Walz.
Not like, “taking Saudi money to look the other way over political assassination” dirt, but like typical, milquetoast establishment Democrat corruption, some money changing hands somewhere, maybe something to do with China. The kind of thing that the Republicans would do and it would be buried in the news cycle within 5 hours, but if a Dem is caught cheating even stupidly and mildly, they will roll over screaming like a startled baby goat.
Dems are too hung up on “The high road” and fold so easily under the slightest threat of being called out for something improper. Looking at you Al Franken, for forever staining the entire liberal left with the shame of being the weakest, most pathetic losers, incapable of actually protecting their constituents.
Walz is a Zionist. Getting Israel ahead is his game.
I don’t know why you think this is the secret that ends his career. Dems fail the purity tests of the type of people that actually care about that and voted Trump by not showing up. Or in even worse cases, went full horseshoe theory and actually voted Trump.
Refusing to vote for the dogs of a genocidal regime is less “purity test” and more “basic humanity”.
No, see, you were given a choice.
a) Reasonably tepid president’s vice president. No great achievements, but no strongly notable transgressions against the people of the country. Policies not actively progressive but not actively hostile. Supports Ukraine. Supports Israel. Runs on the platform of moderate politics.
b) Multiple times convicted felon, strongly suspected of being a pedophile and child trafficker. Catastrophic first term. Weak foreign policy in first term, already schmoozing up to military enemies of the country. Supports nothing but his own pocket.
How is that not a purity test? Even if you’re a normal person that is sternly anti-Israel, you have singled out one issue in which one candidate performs (probably, we don’t even know) worse than the other one. And still outperforms the other one on all other issues unless you’re a ten toes down white supremacist with the sole life goal to make sure people with a darker skin color suffer and a deeper pocket prosper. That’s what we call, say it with me, a purity test. Your refusal to go out and vote is complicity in the murder of Renee Good and Alex Pretti. Don’t preach to me about humanity, you’re probably not even from the US.
against the people of the country.
Thing is, I care about humanity, not just “the people of the country”. Therefore, “supports Israel” is a dealbreaker.
Supporting the existence of Israel is supporting genocide. I will never vote for someone with such blood on their hands. If you would, especially to maintain your own comfort and privilege, then your soul is compromised.
Or maybe there’s really no difference between the Democrats and Republicans. It’s a capitalistic show for the easily manipulated citizens of the US Empire, that have been propagandized since early on in grade school.
Go ahead and vote your way out of it.
Go ahead and vote your way out of it.
I will continue to try. We don’t have a lot of other options, but this isn’t a bad option, unless you only watch the bad news.
You are right about the Dems. But we have to stop getting lost in these stupid 4-year federal kayfabe WWE spectacles, when the people and organizations that hold up the Federal state are the local judges, mayors, community leaders and elected representatives.
The USA is too large and our current voting system is simple enough that it would take a very large, concerted effort to cheat the entire thing, or we wouldn’t see people like Mamdani and other progressive/socialist leaders that we saw come into power last local election cycle, and if we actually all got off our asses instead of being cynical and actually built more grassroots movements like New York did, we could kick the legs out from under this entire fetid cauldron of corruption.
This isn’t new, and it doesn’t matter which of the two parties are in office. The US Empire is a cancer.
https://dessalines.github.io/essays/us_atrocities.html#imperialism
I can assure you that in the US a presidential paramilitary invading cities that are overwhelmingly white and shooting citizens in the face live on social media is indeed a new phenomenon.
Sort of. Miller has been involved in developing and test running the concept on years, see Hungary (field test of the fearmongering populism + the “Mike Johnson” special - we had “don’t know, wasn’t there, didn’t hear about it, ask someone else” press conference memes like 12 years ago) and other examples. Definitely involved to some degree with Fico and Putin, and to a lesser extent, Babis, Meloni and Simion. They weren’t sure they could get away with it last time Trump was up there, although if my memory serves, national guard was deployed due to maybe BLM?
I mean really, it’s shocking how fast it ramped up but I cannot say that I’m truly surprised it did happen, and if I look back at the people involved in it, it seems more like a gentle increase of the knob than a sudden twist. It’s also just that the higher you are on the dial, the closer together are the red lines.
They’re a .ml user, you’re not going to get much in the way of a nuanced and intelligent reply focused on solutions.
It’s only fine when the US is terrorizing other countries, right?
Bring the garbage to our streets and I’ll be forced to make a sign to convey my feelings outrage.
I know the history of the US from many perspectives, I don’t need essays about it, I am educated enough to know that a great many countries have a lot of blood on their hands.
I am more concerned with solving issues here and now that harm people than joining bandwagons or tankie clubs and self-flagellating about it though.
These kinds of lists just serve like incel manifestos for people hung up on nationalist persecution rather than sexual insecurity.
A number of people here have no idea what they’re writing about, because they’re not actually from here. I saw some asshole yesterday holding up John Brown as a successful model of how a new American civil war should be fought, lol.
John Brown. If I could find it again I’d screenshot it. This is all just “let’s you and him fight” nonsense.
Wild take. You read about the US recently killing civilians in many different countries, and that brings you to sexual insecurity? Another liberal that would rather bury their head in the sand rather than open their eyes. I wish I could say I was surprised.
The US being the largest global terrorist organization isn’t a thing of the past, it’s very much the present. Bush, Obama, Trump, Biden, and basically all before them took part in the atrocities. Yet, the solution to this problem seems to be: “vote blue no matter who.”
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but mamdani isn’t going to save you either
Don’t be obtuse, you know well what I was trying to say, whatever your issues are with particular people have nothing to do with my point.
i understood your point very well. My point (which i deleted because other commenters had already made similar points and with more detail than i was planning) is that your example of a victory is in fact a loss.
Mumdani is a release valve to stop radical change from happening, a compatible liberal gatekeeper who will take the passion of his electorate and destroy it by a thousand disappointments.
He is a democrat, who surrounds himself with zionists. The only radical thing about him is his identity. He is a muslim Obama, a brown-face genderswapped AOC. He is there because of his identity and his vibes.
If Bernie had won Iowa and if the DNC was at all democratic in its internal processes (superdelegates, ticket-splitting, pied piper etc) then i would share some of your optimism for internal change. We don’t live in that world. A world where people like MTG are allowed to evolve beyond partisan lines, where Massie is able to defend his constitution…
I also don’t want to blackpill you guys into inaction, so i’ll finish this mostly redundant post by saying the american people seem ready for change. The numbers of people hitting the streets to fight ICE is inspiring, and a much more concrete reason to hope than a bunch of exhausted and politically illiterate new yorkers protest voting for a god damn fucking democrat.
That’s the American way. Next they will SLAM the government and nothing will happen.
I mean he called in the Minnesota National Guard.
…and then what?
Nothing. Because that’s all Democrats will ever be good for: theater.
At the time you made this comment he’d called in the MN guard… a day before.
Currently the guard is feeding protesters so IDK man, that’s actually pretty big.
No, it’s not lol, it’s completely inconsequential. They didn’t protect the protestor whose hand was blown off by ICE’s use of “less lethal” munitions this morning. I don’t give a fuck if they pass out donuts and do some PR segments, there’s no evidence to suggest they’re meaningfully on our side… yet. Especially after state police brutalized protestors at the site of Alex’s murder.
I’m eager to be wrong. I think it’s a vital turning point so I very, very, very much hope to be wrong. But I don’t see it yet.
Serious question, what would demonstrate they’re meaningfully on our side to you, but wouldn’t be a literal civil war? Because short of that, federal troops feeding protesters is a big deal.
Some places to start could be
- Following ICE wherever they go and documenting their conduct. Civilians are already doing this and Walz has requested that they do so, so having the military do at least what you’re expecting the citizens to do is literally the bare minimum.
- Warning citizens when ICE is approaching, perhaps even using state emergency warning systems. If this is considered protected First Amendment conduct for citizens, it may be for military as well. I’m not sure from a legal perspective, but they should be risking it to protect citizens. Especially since Trump constantly takes an “ask for forgiveness, not permission” approach.
- Put state resources behind the prosecution of Alex Pretti’s murderer. (It’s been intimated that this is being done via the BCA but I’m not seeing any actual indications of progress.)
- Put state resources behind enabling a general strike / eviction freeze / other economic benefits to both enable protest and prevent vulnerable immigrants from needing to go to work.
- Not fucking sending state police to brutalize protestors at the site of Alex Pretti’s murder.
I think those would all fall short of “a literal civil war”.
I see federal troops feeding protestors as an attempt to maintain the perception of the state as a legitimate authority without actually needing to take any meaningful action. “Look guys, they’re with us!”… except when the bullets / less-than-lethal projectiles start flying.
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Is a great thing, I hope they do this (though if they do follow through I suspect trump will order them to stop)
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Would unfortunately be a civil war thing - it’s not open conflict, but it would require the subversion of federal systems (the emergency warning systems) to actively sabotage federal troops. I don’t know about the free speech rights, but generally speaking the military has sharp restrictions on what counts as free speech.
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He was killed two days ago and the court hearing to attempt to ensure BCA has access to the site is ongoing as I write this so hopefully there will be progress soon!
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Another serious question (and setting aside the question of legality because who fuckin’ cares at this point), what resources should the state put out to support this? Having worked with several state governments, there’s not really “spare cash” floating around to enable this kind of unbelievable expenditure, so it’s somewhat limited to an eviction freeze (which is almost entirely out of the state’s control)
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Not really a national guard thing but fair enough. I’ve seen some limited vids from there but most of what I’ve seen was one violent interaction then the police fled, was there more than that? I’ve seen people say they came back that evening but I can’t find a good source for that.
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Effective: “Today I am calling for the immediate arrest and trial of agents involved in the murders and abuses of state citizens”
Ineffective: “please leave”
Ineffective: “please leave”
Also ineffective: “I call for X”
Effective: “I will be funding and giving media access to local self-defense groups, worker organizing, and mutual aid orgs. The threat comes from the state apparatus and the only way it can be defeated is by grassroots organizing”
What are you doing?
One of the primary goals of grassroots organizing is to take power. Walz already has the power. He should wield the state power against the federal government.
doesnt look like has interest into doing anything, then just repeating words like schumer and jefferies just for the sake of political points. he isnt even re-running for ree-lection he has little to lose, buts hes shilling like he needs to be re-elected. i wouldnt be surprised if someone dropped a big check in back account right after this.
I mean, maybe.
In Walz’ case, I don’t necessarily think it’s money. I don’t think a bribe is necessary, it’s just a cultural expectation among DNC politicians that you must be limp, ineffective, meek, weak-willed, civil to a near suicidal degree, and ambitionless.
But, those virtues ultimately come from the (corporate) consultants anyway, and I’m not much interested in defending Walz right now either, so fuck it. May as well be fucking bribed.
I’m not in the US, but I’m already militant in such organizations in my home country.
I’m sorry, I meant what are you doing in this comment section. As in, “what are you trying to accomplish.”
[edit] Also, I’m just going to assume these are good organizations: Right on, man. I’m glad you’re out there helping your fellow people.
“Today I am calling for the immediate arrest and trial of agents involved in the murders and abuses of state citizens”
We will, at the very least, find out immediately which side the army will fall on.
The second they confront or lock up the ‘federal agents’ The army will be called in. The administration want tanks on the streets, a show of power.
Maybe he can give them a basket of cookies too?
SEND IN THE NATIONAL GUARD. You state is under attack by gestapo and they are purposely destroying evidence to hide their crimes.
They must be force out with guns, not stern words. Your call waltz.
They sent NG, but many didn’t expect NG to defend the people.
I also saw a photo of an armed protest in Minneapolis following the shooting by ICE.
Have a link or copy of the photo you can share?
I don’t have a link, but here’s the photo
Love “not a cop” flair
Although, we are getting dangerously close to “Was Chaz good?” discourse
It was great
Of course CHAZ was good. The fact that it scared the piss out of cops and the media is proof enough.
i can see why he was so ineffective during the campaign as well, you cant play to republicans emotions about disabled people when they are making fun of them.
Maybe it’s time to stop calling them to leave and time to kick them out
deport them. MN knows how to remove ice and snow from the roads. plows could be useful
Did he say pretty please? That would be effective.
Tell him. Ask harder!
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That’s a good way to get the military to start bombing US cities.
Look more closely at the comments. We’re getting overrun with people trying to start shit, many of whom are not even from here.
Because everyone thinks you’re being cowardly
Heh, try that on someone who actually gives a shit what internet randos think of them.
Minnesota, Minneapolis, and Tim Walz are holding the line. They are fantastic. The very best of us. I literally could not be more proud of them, and of us, right now.
You, on the other hand, got nothing but empty words, talking about cowardice from behind a pseudonym and a keyboard like this is a junior high popularity contest and you’re jealous of the other girl’s miniskirt.
Seriously, try it on someone else while I go watch the news and see how Minnesota is refusing to take the bait.
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It doesn’t matter if you want violence or not. Violence is already here. The option left is to peacefully get onto the train or not?
oh now the media are paying attention. playing on donald’s golf cart, i hope
Everyone is in Punisher mode, on their OLED screens, from the safety of their homes, far away from Minnesota, without any responsibility for possible escalation of violence.
Posting thru a shitty LCD from an undisclosed Walmart parking lot, shitty 9mm under the seat, no tags on my shitty car. What you’re doing here is called “projection”. The violence has always been inherent in the system and will come to you eventually. The very least you can do until then is not mock and undermine the people actually experiencing it.
Best i can do is send you my support from across the ocean and wish you all to stay safe.
and you telling people to act, when your not even in the country, go deal with your own right wingers.instead of being a foreign actor trying to instigate violence, or rioting.
Please learn to read. Here everyone is calling governor weak. If he calls for retaliation there will be blood on his hands. He’s trying to keep genie in the bottle.
As for being foreign actor, your stupid country affects my life too, so i have a say in this.
No, you’re right. A lot of ragebaiting here without actual knowledge of the US. After some of what I have seen in the last 24 hours I am absolutely certain we are getting brigaded.
