- cross-posted to:
- news@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- news@lemmy.world
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“Data centers are inherently an important part of our society, and they’re going to become even more necessary going forward,”
God, fuck this shit
Right?
Like, says who and on what historical basis? People said similar shit about crypto and we all know how that turned out.
You literally are using a data center or several to post this. How do you think the internet works?
Please don’t be obtuse on purpose. It’s not helpful to anyone
How is this being obtuse?
Not the same type of data centre.
The majority of datacenters and datacenter power consumption are not for AI. Before AI no one cared about datacenters. Still no one cares about datacenters that already existed and make up the majority of datacenters. I don’t understand it. Is this just manufactured outrage?
Data centers went from the tens of megawatts range to the gigawatts range because they’re being stuffed with increasingly power hungry AI chips at great density, and they’re also building larger ones. Some of the planned data centers are going to crack 10 gigawatts each. The record electricity consumption rate for my entire country of ~1.3 million people is 1.6 gigawatts in the winter. That includes industry AND multiple non-AI data centers.
So now everyone else has to pay more for electricity in the affected communities, as the demand’s gone up. And water’s going to be scarcer. And they’re literally piping out hot steam at you in already hot areas, to the point that some neighborhoods might become unlivable due to the increased wet bulb temperature.
Luckily, yes, some of the bigger ones are planning on-site gas power plants (and a little bit of solar), but then you’re left asking yourself if more fossil fuel based generation is much better than just driving everyone’s fees up through the grid. It doesn’t drive our electricity costs up, but it’s still bad for the climate.
C’mon bro put 2 and 2 together, you can do it
What do you want me to put together? Why don’t you just come out and say what you mean instead of beating around the bush?
People hate data centers because they are being forced into our communities without our consent. Consent. Consent.consent
Most datacenters are not in urban communities they are in industrial zones.
You also don’t need the consent of other people to build things on land you own. Get out of here with this shit.
You do need consent from other people…. That’s the whole point of zoning laws…… which is half the reason why there’s a housing crisis…. I’m a real estate agent and a real estate developer and have been for two decades so I don’t need your childish little fucking opinion on shit. Always some libertarian moron trying to pretend like laws don’t exist everywhere.
Kind of breaks the social contract to suddenly increase a community’s electricity consumption so much that everyone who lives in it is told to go find their own electricity, don’t you think?
Disingenuous
So running a community forum on a decade old laptop, or someone using a hand-me-down phone to watch videos are equal to openAI’s stargate hyperscaler?
We don’t classify a laptop a data centre just because it was repurposed as a web server, and furthermore, devices are so powerful today that you could probably do the same on a smart watch.
Either you don’t know what a data centre is, or are intentionally skewing the definition of “data centre” to fit your snarky reply.
YouTube requires enormous amounts of data center hardware. Do you have any idea how much video data they injest, transcode, and distribute in even just an hour or a minute? It’s not very economical to run actually and they had major problems even breaking even.
Most large Lemmy instances run on cloud services nowadays. So they rely on a datacenter somewhere. I am well aware you can self-host - I have done so for multiple things including AI models and tools - but that’s a minority of Lemmy users. Most are using public instances which are hosted on servers in the cloud. In fact if you read the deployment guide for Lemmy it is meant to be deployed using cloud native technology.
You also don’t need a whole Stargate to host one users AI usage. You don’t even need a whole server. Typically AI servers process requests from multiple users simultaneously. The actual marginal cost of each user is relatively small, hence why people can and do run local AI models.
You literally are using a data center or several to post this. How do you think the internet works?
It’s funny how the last decade or so we were always told to save water and ditch the car, you know, be as environmentally friendly as possible only for big companies to come along and basically do the opposite; again and again.
The world is going to shit and everyone knows it, but money talks I guess… I can’t fucking take it anymore.
These people that make these decisions have names and addresses.
Every state has a website like this one: https://sos.oregon.gov/business/Pages/find.aspx
And for the low low price of free, you will know their business address, their mailing address, and the personal address of the most important people in any company you look up.
I do not support doxxing of residents and civilians, but lets be real here. Wealthy corps and wealthy people are in charge. People.
Data centers have tons of precious metals like copper and such
Just sayin
And they have tons of RAM and SSDs.
It’s your country’s fault for voting for the political party that doesn’t believe in science.
Don’t drag Germany into this…
Actually, do whatever to Germany I don’t really care
Germany seems fine on some level, at least you don’t have a wannabe dictator. What concerns me is that the cold war border is still very visible on political maps.
Worse. The Neo Nazis are winning in the Commie heartland.
In America both parties are shit and they have some people that aspire to some kinds of genocide fascist that I don’t support. In my country(Poland) there are more parties, but each one have at least one politician that aspire to genocide.
Even when two sides are bad, one is always worse than the other
The democrats love ai too
Atleast they believe in climate change
The tech oligarchs sided with the magats because the Democrats said they were going to treat AI like the Manhattan project, for safety. One of the biggest reasons the US election cycle went the way it did was because the Democrats said they weren’t going to allow this.
Those aren’t the same people. More often than not, the people who fuck the environment the most, tend to finance parties that want to end any environmental protection.
The unceasing demonic entities do not have a soul. It is folly to attribute human emotions such as the survival of the human race to a destruction wraith as if it had any other drive than the gluttonous desperate need for growth we have all assigned and written contracts with them, while pretending we have no individual choice. There are so many alternate governments beside rampant hypercapitalist greed slaughter mode that could give humans some power over the immortal global hatemachines that are burying our race as a game. But what do I know, it is normalized by usa to let engines of hell have lifeblood lawyers lobby and extract any value from all corners of society because of “growth”. I think every human knows the difference in their bones, between prosperity and growth. Yet some humans even has as their jobs to try to trick in any way possible the targets they only want prosperity. When they know its growth, its goal is to grow and consume us entirely. Then when we have been eradicated, I guess they will just wither away not even caring who won any more. It’s disgusting to think about. The lobbying lawyer servants that makes sure they are unstoppable by their masters exponential obliteration march. I think it is vile that you allow these hungering spectres prey on the world under the guise of prosperity. Hypercapitalism is an extremist and occult form of government. You don’t even seem to react to the political jesters dance. Entranced by their games? By the allure of their lies? Bleh. It is easy to mistake prosperity for growth. I understand. But now you know. One is poison.
Who the fuck builds a data center in Phoenix?! Was the surface of the sun not available?
They don’t give a fuck about us. Phoenix likely gave tax breaks, energy deals etc
Seems hard to believe that those would outweigh the like 30 degree average temperature difference of building it some place like Glasgow Montana.
The cooling water evaporates real nice in the desert tho
I didn’t think about evaporative cooling for some reason, how much water will that use?
And if you want liters, just multiply any amount by 3.7 or something, I don’t really remember, I don’t use gallons
Once again I am shocked that you always have these big ass heat exchangers on these data centers but no talk of even trying to use some of the waste heat to offset the power use.
They are wasteful on purpose. they could have closed circuit cooling systems where they condense the water from the vapor and reuse it. But they are a giant middle finger to all of us.
Water is cheaper to waste than electricity unfortunately.
Nah, evaporation removes multiple times more heat than regular air cooling. It’s because water has high specific heat
Pretty sure most modern data centers are using closed loop cooling or refrigeration. Not evaporative cooling.
You can’t condense the water either that would defeat the point of evaporating it in the first place. Closed loop liquid cooling does not involve boiling or evaporation. You are just pumping a liquid around a circuit. It’s not just water either it’s more like a car antifreeze.
Got any info to back that up? Here’s a screenshot from page 39 of the US Data Center Energy Usage Report, which shows the use of closed loop systems (which they call dry cooling) as one of the smallest percentages of cooling types used. Pretty sure you’ve got it completely backwards on the types of cooling used, and I know for a fact the massive Amazon data center out in Oregon uses evaporative, because you can’t drink the water there as a result.
This shows the percentage of specific types of data centers but fails to mention how many are in each group, and what the cooling systems used on the most recently built data centers are. Right now AI specialized data centers are what are popping up everywhere with massive scale and that chart specifically shows that most use some form of closed loop cooling? Did your report show specific numbers of those datacenters per category and the energy/heat generated? Otherwise just a base percentage of each type obscurs a lot of context here.
The laws of thermodynamics? Can’t create or destroy energy and overall entropy increases over time. A closed loop (or any cooling system) just moves heat away from the hot thing. So yes, they can be used as much as any other cooling system but it won’t stop the issue of “generating lots of heat”. That heat still needs to go somewhere. Dumping it into the atmosphere might be the best option if there’s nothing in the area that needs heat. Should probably build them next to steel plants or something like that. Then a closed loop would be better.
I never said it fixed the issue of generating heat. Heat isn’t really a major problem as far as I am concerned. I thought we were talking about water use.
Fair enough, I thought we were talking about the heat lol.
? OP was claiming that the majority of data centers use closed loop/refrigeration systems and I was pointing out that US data shows the vast majority use evaporative cooling. They posted a few comments pushing that idea which is why I refuted that. I’m not sure what the point you’re trying to make is in regards to those two statements. I’m not disputing the accuracy of what you’re saying, just unsure of where you’re going with it.
Thought your request to back it up was in response to the parent comment saying that condensing the water defeats the purpose rather than the first paragraph.
High power density = high cooling demnds
Why would they call closed loop liquid cooling “dry cooling”? Unless they explicitly said that then I don’t believe you to be honest.
Evaporative cooling wouldn’t make the water undrinkable unless something has gone very wrong. So I don’t think what you are saying about Oregan is true either.
This is also only representative of the USA, not worldwide. I get that much of the world doesn’t have many datacenters compared to the USA, but you at least have to include China and the EU.
Just a talking point in an investors report. The more I read on these centers the more I am convinced they are not built to work.
The guy you are replying to doesn’t actually know jack about data centers. Plenty do use closed loop cooling which doesn’t involve evaporating water. It’s only a minority that use evaporative cooling. Power stations are more likely to use evaporative cooling (hence big towers with steam clouds) than datacenters are. They also use far more cooling water than datacenters do. Both pale in comparison to agriculture and other uses.
They could boil seawater, condense the steam into drinking water
its more expensive since you will need to deal with corrosion and heat degrading the equipment overtime.
Typical waste in the USA. I believe Sweden or Finland pump the heat out for residential use.
I don’t think the main problem of Phoenix is the lack of heating
You need hot water in Phoenix, don’t you?
Use it to heat water for home use and a desert does become cool at night.
Nebius is doing it in Finland
Some people making datacenter looks into way to recycle the extra heat, some uses it to heat local area (willingly). But all of this costs more than just, dumping it out, I guess.
my crazy ass idea since 2015:
let’s install mini data centers on residential buildings:
- use excess heat to get hot water for pavement heating in winter and get hot water for domestic usage
- buildings get free high speed fiber
- local edge servers
- employ local people for maintenance
cons:
- management hell, but if small teams get split locally in quarters/towns then I don’t see problems
Phoenix. What are you going to do with it in Phoenix? 24/7 saunas?
If Phoenix has heavy Industries, piped steam is often useful. There’s also central heating (just hot water eg for cooking, bathing, dishwasher etc.), however this requires prior design.
Then there’s a better option to have the chimney higher up so the hot air doesn’t impact downstream.
It’s not rocket science but it’s not free of cost either
Waste heat is high entropy alredy. You can’t extract any meaningful energy out of it.
Ah yes, famously we have never been able to do anything with heat energy…
It’s not my fault you don’t understand physics and think that all heat=free energy. You can’t extract shit without big temperature difference.
Yeah if only you had enough excess heat in one area to increase the local temperature of an already very hot place by 4 degrees.
If you plug the numbers into the Carnot equation, it looks like the maximum theoretical efficiency of a thermoelectric generator or heat engine operating at that temperature gradient is about 0.75%. And, I could be wrong, but my assumption would be any attempt to reclaim that energy would slow its exchange and potentially bottleneck a cooling system to some extent.
The issue is you are using 4 degrees as the delta of temp, when that is the ambient area temp change. The very localized heat being generated on site (and already nicely conveyed in heat management systems) is going to be a lot more then 4. Also why would you be always using a thermometric generator? They are not know to be efficient.
Good point about the local temperature delta… I kind of lost sight of that in the discussion. But my understanding of that equation is it would be the maximum theoretical efficiency of any thermal generator as it represents an idealized heat engine.
I mean good, we should do everything possible to make these data centers as unnefficient as they are unnecessary.
4 degrees Fahrenheit is nothing. For all practical energy production puropses it’s worthless
Americans simply don’t give a shit.
No, whiny clown about to reply, I don’t care if you’re “one of the good ones.” You STILL don’t give a shit.
Okay wiz, I’ll bite. While I’m working 60 hours a week, raising awareness online, and attending City council meetings, what else would you like me to fucking do? Mail them a pipe of dynamite?
Everyone has a job. You aren’t special.
Attending city council meetings and raising awareness are things you should be doing in the BEST of times. That’s called participation in democracy. If you think that’s all that’s called for right now in the US, I don’t know what to tell you.
Hey don’t lump me in with those whiny clowns! I’m a whiny clown in a clown suit. Damn foreigners making extremely generalized assumptions about us /s
This will help fighting the global colding we’ve had going on… wait, something’s off. Am I reading the charts upside down again?
Not only that… but Lake Tahoe is being abandoned by their power company to power data centers because its more profitable.
https://fortune.com/2026/05/12/lake-tahoe-data-center-49000-residents-power-source/
How is that even allowed
I don’t know, but it sets a dangerous precedent.
Its a travesty, but in that case a little more strange. The blame is not just on the power company but also the local government, the company was bought in 2009 and told the community it would be winding down providing power in the area. The local government got a few extensions but now they have “better” customers they are not going to give them any more. So for many years the area knew it had this issue to deal with but like a lot of americans just sat on their asses and said nothing could be done.
As to why this is allowed, simple, it is a power company existing in a system where profit is the sole factor in anything.
2009 was 17 years ago, they had so much time
I think part of the issue is they did not really try, it looks like they just assumed things would stay the same. The other part is how would they get another provider? I assume they could get one but for how much more?
That’s fucking WILD
It doesn’t set a precedent at all. It’s always been like this.
Now just more people are being effected by it and in places that people actually give a fuck about. So it’s news now.
Mind throwing out a source? Having some trouble searching for other places that have experienced this kinda thing, with how fucked search has gotten. All I can find are articles about company towns, which don’t feel like what you’re referring to.
Free market economy. You could technically do similar with nordpool. Set up a ridiculous power consumer and watch everyone’s prices go up.
Insanity.
Thank you for linking.
A Karren has their own special way to do this no matter what.
Well they don’t believe in global warming but perhaps they’ll believe in local warming.
No karen really lives laughs and loves. They brood frown and hate.
(Noun.) (Noun.) ?
You don’t know what a noun is do you?
space, noun, outside earth’s atmosphere
I thought this was the meaning of space in space billionaires? Billionaires who pour a lot of money into going to space?
https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/space_1?q=space
A verb is a doing word, so it is saying to space the billionaires, as in to throw them out in airlock into space. It’s got nothing to do with whether or not the billionaires are active in the space industry or not.
Yes but in figure 1 it’s a noun modifying another noun. Like police car siren. Police and car aren’t adjectives in that example.
The term you might be looking for is adjunct noun, where a noun modified another noun by acting as an adjective, as-in chicken soup, or cat food.
I got that, I was referring to the first panel (adjective noun).
Person, place, or thing. Space can also be a noun.
They raised the surrounding temperature in fucking Phoenix Arizona? A place already so hot that it can kill you within hours. we’re so fucked.
Good thing climate change isn’t real or we’d be in BIG trouble!
Yeah… that would be bad…
If you are trying to keep something cool why would you put it in Arizona
Because as humans we are insanely stupid. I think we all know the answer. Money is why Arizona. We don’t do what’s right. We do what is cheap and effective. It just happens that sometimes that is right too.
It’s the secret government weather weapon they were talking about! It is real!
Clearly those data centers aren’t using enough fire. We should donate more fire to them.
At some point, people need to find ways to cancel these things.
I recently watched a video about the first electronic synthesizer. It was built in 1897, and was housed in the basement of an entire city block in NYC. Several decades later, and it would fit in a suitcase, with far more functionality. It worked, but it was huge and unwieldly, to the point of being completely impractical. It needed to wait until the technology caught up to it, and made it a truly viable instrument, and not just a concept.
Data Centers are like that 1897 synthesizer. It works, sure, but at what cost? It’s expensive in every way, from the building costs, the energy costs, the environmental costs, etc. We have a concept and a prototype, but not a truly viable product yet. Maybe in a decade or two, with a proper goal in mind, we can get there, but right now, Data Centers are just that big, dumb synthesizer that takes up a city block.
Ah but that’s where you’re mistaken. The electronic Synthesizer actually had a use. Data centers are a waste the whole way around, and they always will be.
Valid.
In that case, could you put them in Minneapolis and run them in like January?
I used to live there, and during the winters it can get brutal. During one of those polar vortexes is the first time I ever saw an air temperature of negative 50 with a wind chill of negative 70.
Nah we dont want them either. I don’t want my electricity prices to skyrocket more than they already have.
Yeah, fair enough.
You could put them in Canada way the fuck up north (good luck connecting them) right next to almost unlimited hydro power and it would still be silly.
Keep in mind heating of this magnitude is going to be bad in any place it is put. The fact they seem to put them in places like this tells me they don’t care about these centers actually working efficiently, just that they exist for an investor report.
Power is more expensive than water. So they use evaporative cooling in an arid climate.
As a bonus, solar should be plentiful there so the price they end up paying for electricity from the grid might be cheaper too?
Eh, Minneapolis gets cold, but it doesn’t quite get that cold. The record low was -34 degrees F (-37C). We do regularly hit -20F, but we haven’t hit -30 since 1996.
Nitpicking aside, I agree that the winters can get brutal.
I remember it got cold enough during that winter polar vortex thing that the power company was asking people to keep their homes at like 60 so that we didn’t overload the power grid and gas pressure. I want to say that was like 2016 or something when I used to live there.
Did you live in Minneapolis or a suburb?
Winter of 2013-2014 was pretty brutal. I’m not sure about 16-17 though.
I lived in southeast Minneapolis right near the U of M. I wasn’t there for the winter of 2013-2014 as I originally came in October of 2014 and lived there until 2019.
Seward neighborhood? I used to work at Franklin & 22nd - near the Pizza Luce. That was before you lived here, though.
Now I live near Minnehaha Falls.
Oh, I know exactly where you’re talking about. As I said, I used to live in Southeast Minneapolis over by the U of M, but I used to work near Franklin and Nicollet. There was this pizza place I used to visit on 24th and Nicolet quite often. And there was also a place called Glamdall Donuts on like 26th and Nicolet that I used to visit pretty often.
I used to take the MetroTransit 2 bus to and from work.
Glam doll! I haven’t been there in ages. I should pop over there this weekend.
I think I know the pizza shop you mentioned. I don’t remember its name, but it’s a little hole-in-the-wall place near the MIA.
Weak ass infrastructure. I live in an area that gets to be -50 (C but at that point does not really matter) almost every year and don’t have those sort of issues. (well yet as we seem to be poisoned by your stupid us thinking of cut every corner)
