Except there is exactly that: socialism is where the working class owns the means of production.
Anyone who suggests otherwise is normally a right wing or centrist nutjob. People who debate if the USSR are debating how well it meets that criteria, not what the criteria actually is.
Also there are loads of people who are socialists but not MLs. Not all communists are MLs or Maoists either. Anarchist communists, libertarian marxists are communists that don’t fit into that group. Anarchists in general are socialists that don’t agree with MLs or Maoists or authoritarian regimes like China or the USSR.
Stop going around spouting centrist nonsense and actually read socialist theories if you want to legitimately criticise it. You can’t criticise such a broad range of systems without first understanding what they are and what they have in common.
So basically anyone left of a social democrat you don’t support? As far as I am concerned social democrats aren’t real socialists but support hybrid economy.
Out of curiosity do you have any problem with anarchist communism, market socialism, or any other true socialist ideology that is pro civil liberties?
Also MLs do want a democracy, it’s called democratic socialism (which are different from social democrats, yes it’s confusing). As far as they are concerned the democracy we live in now isn’t real, and I tend to agree with them on this as do many other leftist groups. Just to be clear I haven’t been an ML in a while.
How can a society without a state - anarchism - possibly be authoritarian? There are no police or military to enforce any authoritarian policies is many forms of anarchism. What you are saying doesn’t make sense.
I actually agree with you that MLs can be authoritarian. That’s part of why I left those ideologies behind. What I don’t agree with is painting all socialist ideologies with the same brush. Some are based on direct democracy which is always going to be more democratic than representative democracy, weather you think that’s a good thing or not.
I also don’t believe we live in a true democracy as it’s controlled through political and economic corruption including lobbying, as well as the two-party system created through FPTP voting systems. Not to mention manufactured consent. So to me those checks and balances aren’t that effective, especially compared to real direct democracy.
Edit: also MLs believe in checks and balances last I checked. The USSR was full of bureaucracy for this very reason.
Generally, anarchism seems to me like a dysfunctional mess or just a state with extra steps. And I don’t see direct democracy working for any society with big population without leading to tyranny of majority, which I see as an authoritarian form of government. Not even mentioning that through direct democracy could rise some tyrant.
So you don’t actually care about being democratic as end in itself then.
And no, ML do not believe in checks and balances. Having a lot of bureaucracy doesn’t mean you have implemented the system of checks and balances. Marxism-Leninism presupposes creation of one party state controlled by the communist party, where the communist party is the supreme authority. Doesn’t sound like a system with checks and balances.
There are systems like Cuba which have multiple houses which vote on issues - just like USA and UK have multiples voting bodies. These people are representatives elected by the people. Grouping them into distinct parties doesn’t make it more democratic and I can’t see how it adds checks and balances.
Except there is exactly that: socialism is where the working class owns the means of production.
No that’s Marxism. Socialism existed before Marx. Generally socialism is understood to be some form of collective ownership(in a strict form) by a community or state, but that could take the form of worker control, complete democratic control, or what it is in a lot of cases which is technocratic beuracrat control. In a less strict form it could even include voluntary cooperation.
Did I say they were? I was referring to “collective ownership (in a strict form) by a community or state [which]…take[s] the form of worker control, complete democratic control” as an example of the working class owning the means of production, and challenging the idea that “collective ownership” and “working class ownership of the means of production” are mutually exclusive.
I didn’t say “which”, I said “could”. While what I said does include what you said, it also includes “collective ownership (in a strict form) by a community or state…which is technocratic beuracrat control”
deleted by creator
Except there is exactly that: socialism is where the working class owns the means of production.
Anyone who suggests otherwise is normally a right wing or centrist nutjob. People who debate if the USSR are debating how well it meets that criteria, not what the criteria actually is.
Also there are loads of people who are socialists but not MLs. Not all communists are MLs or Maoists either. Anarchist communists, libertarian marxists are communists that don’t fit into that group. Anarchists in general are socialists that don’t agree with MLs or Maoists or authoritarian regimes like China or the USSR.
Stop going around spouting centrist nonsense and actually read socialist theories if you want to legitimately criticise it. You can’t criticise such a broad range of systems without first understanding what they are and what they have in common.
deleted by creator
So basically anyone left of a social democrat you don’t support? As far as I am concerned social democrats aren’t real socialists but support hybrid economy.
Out of curiosity do you have any problem with anarchist communism, market socialism, or any other true socialist ideology that is pro civil liberties?
Also MLs do want a democracy, it’s called democratic socialism (which are different from social democrats, yes it’s confusing). As far as they are concerned the democracy we live in now isn’t real, and I tend to agree with them on this as do many other leftist groups. Just to be clear I haven’t been an ML in a while.
deleted by creator
How can a society without a state - anarchism - possibly be authoritarian? There are no police or military to enforce any authoritarian policies is many forms of anarchism. What you are saying doesn’t make sense.
I actually agree with you that MLs can be authoritarian. That’s part of why I left those ideologies behind. What I don’t agree with is painting all socialist ideologies with the same brush. Some are based on direct democracy which is always going to be more democratic than representative democracy, weather you think that’s a good thing or not.
I also don’t believe we live in a true democracy as it’s controlled through political and economic corruption including lobbying, as well as the two-party system created through FPTP voting systems. Not to mention manufactured consent. So to me those checks and balances aren’t that effective, especially compared to real direct democracy.
Edit: also MLs believe in checks and balances last I checked. The USSR was full of bureaucracy for this very reason.
deleted by creator
So you don’t actually care about being democratic as end in itself then.
There are systems like Cuba which have multiple houses which vote on issues - just like USA and UK have multiples voting bodies. These people are representatives elected by the people. Grouping them into distinct parties doesn’t make it more democratic and I can’t see how it adds checks and balances.
deleted by creator
No that’s Marxism. Socialism existed before Marx. Generally socialism is understood to be some form of collective ownership(in a strict form) by a community or state, but that could take the form of worker control, complete democratic control, or what it is in a lot of cases which is technocratic beuracrat control. In a less strict form it could even include voluntary cooperation.
that’s just various examples of the working class owning (and managing) the means of production
So the USSR was socialist? And so is North Korea? The state controls the means of production.
Did I say they were? I was referring to “collective ownership (in a strict form) by a community or state [which]…take[s] the form of worker control, complete democratic control” as an example of the working class owning the means of production, and challenging the idea that “collective ownership” and “working class ownership of the means of production” are mutually exclusive.
I didn’t say “which”, I said “could”. While what I said does include what you said, it also includes “collective ownership (in a strict form) by a community or state…which is technocratic beuracrat control”