Seems like compromise is “the political party does whatever they want and you guarantee your undying loyalty to them with your vote”. You speak of youth and naivety, but only an idiot would accept such a “deal”. If our votes have power then we should wield it.
The fact that you think voting is an undying loyalty and not a simple strategic decision baffles me, and embodies the exact argument I keep seeing on here. You know how you wield the power of your vote? USE IT. Voting 3rd party is really dumb right now but in theory okay. Not voting simply means you don’t care.
I don’t think voting in general is undying loyalty, I think guaranteeing your vote to a party no matter what they do is undying loyalty. That’s what they demand and expect because the other guy is worse, but if that’s the strategy then they have no need to ever actually improve things because the other guy will always be worse.
You have a choice between two candidates who can win the election. There is no third party who can win. You speak as if there is one in a first past the post electoral system. There isn’t. If you have a way forward that doesn’t further slide us into fascism and also isn’t supportive of genocide, please enlighten me.
Sadly our only option is to not for for Trump, and the only other viable candidate is Biden. I don’t like it anymore then you do, but until we replace our electoral system with one that is more fair, it’s what we have to work with.
If the threat of withholding your vote does not scare the party that is supposedly saving democracy, then they probably don’t actually care about democracy, especially when they prioritize genocide over getting those votes.
I’d much prefer a ranked choice voting system where we had viable third parties. At the end of the day, one of two people will win the election. If you make one issue your entire focus, you lose sight of the big picture. I’ll just say this - genocide is not a joke, it’s fucked up, and I believe Israel is committing it in Gaza.
Putting that aside for now, do you care about anything else politically? Do you believe a woman should not be allowed to have an abortion, or do you support further tax cuts for the billionaires?
You never can tell at this point. Some people are just low information, single issue voters. I dont doubt there are a lot of astroturfing trolls here though, especially since it’s an election year.
Politics is absolutely about compromise, but Democrats never really compromise with progressives. The most we get is putting weed in the hands of the pharmaceutical companies, Yippee.
Sigh. They compromise with Republicans because they don’t have all three of the house of representatives, the Senate, and the presidency. You want them to not compromise with Republicans? Give them all 3 consistently and overwhelmingly.
So, your only solution to fixing the country is to win a super majority every single election for all time, lest the next time the Republican wins, we will be a fascist dictatorship. Well, that doesn’t seem very tenable, does it?
I’m saying if you want progress, then give Dems overwhelming and consistent victories.
You need to twist that to ‘lest we be fascist dictatorship’. We’ll see what happens after Trump, if the Republicans continue on that path. But whether they do or don’t, we’re back to progress and if you want progress.
They can’t be progressive when they keep losing any of the 1) House of representatives, 2) Senate, or 3) Presidency. You want progress? Give them all 3 consistently and overwhelmingly.
So literally what I said, we have to win overwhelming super majorities and every single branch where there’s no hope for the country. Got it, untenable.
So you’re saying that… I should abide by principles… by allowing my country to further descend into fascism… by not voting for a politician that could prevent that…
Don’t be mad at me because I forced you to confront your own lack of principles. I’ve got a principle, personally, that won’t allow me to vote for a genocidaire. I don’t think that’s a very high fucking bar. If we have found ourselves at an election where our choices are between two fascists, then we are already in fascism. If there is no way to vote for “no genocide” then there is no serious reason to vote.
I’ve got a principle, personally, that won’t allow me to vote for a genocidaire. I don’t think that’s a very high fucking bar.
Pretty clearly it’s not a very high bar, since you’re supporting an intensification of that genocide and the commencement of several others. That’s a bar too low to limbo under.
Yeah man, I’m sorry but if you’re doing a genocide, fuck you. I’ve got nothing but hate for you. I don’t care who you are, or who might also do the same thing. I’ll hate them too. That’s what a principle is. If more people had such a principle maybe we could make real political changes instead of giving “political capital” to war criminals.
Yeah man, I’m sorry but if you’re doing a genocide, fuck you. I’ve got nothing but hate for you.
It’s a shame you hate yourself so much. Wait, if you’re pursuing multiple genocides, as you are by furiously seeking a Trump victory, is your hate multiplied?
Most Federal elections aren’t about good vs. bad. They’re about choosing the lesser of two evils. That’s important to remember.
As I see it, a vote for Biden OR Trump is a vote supporting genocide. On that one issue, sadly, there’s no real choice.
However, voting for Trump also brings with it sexism, racism and an inevitable threat to democracy - in addition to genocide. Crucially, changing the system for the better would become MUCH harder under Trump. Choosing not to vote at all (or voting for a 3rd party candidate with no real chance of winning) helps Trump. It would be giving up on yourself, and society as a whole. It would be saying that things are too broken to be fixed, ever, so it’s okay to let future generations suffer.
I don’t see the moral benefit in failing to choose the lesser of two evils.
A system that only allows you to choose between two enthusiastic war criminals should be given up on. There is no saving or reforming such a system. An election boycott and riots in the street are a preferable choice as far as I’m concerned.
I’m not doing shit about electoral reform. I would like to understand exactly the kind of optimism it takes to believe that meaningful electoral reform is a real possibility. Give me your realistic roadmap to a materially better system, accomplished through reforming the current one. I don’t expect a detailed plan, but what are the broad strokes?
So you base your voting decision on an abstracted philosophical argument? Maybe take a good look at the US voting system and ask yourself what happens when Trump wins because people like you upheld their “principles”.
I don’t understand why it is so hard to grasp that opposition to an ongoing genocide is not “an abstracted philosophical argument”. Wake the fuck up. It’s real, and it’s happening right now. The guy you insist I vote for is angry at the idea that anyone (not even himself) be held criminally responsible!
The only other option is indefinitely worse, so the responsible thing to do is voting for Biden. You can still oppose the war on Gaza. Protest it. Be loud. Fight to change the shitty undemocratic voting system of the US. Not voting Biden will not save a single life in Gaza. You are the one who needs to wake up.
It’a abstract because you aren’t considering the consequences of your vote. Here are your choices:
Genocide, unions, anti-monopoly actions, infrastructure, healthcare, loan forgiveness, an excellent cabinet, and some other things that I would consider generally good
Genocide, insurrection, corruption, hypocrisy, and literally so many negative things to list that I’m not capable of enumerating even a fraction of the total list
Either of the above is fine, pick whichever
Those are your ONLY three options. It does not matter why you choose one. It does not matter what you believe, what principles you hold, or what you personally would do as president. The future that we find ourselves in comes down to this choice and this choice only. I cannot understand how a good person who understands this would make the wrong choice, so my goal is to make it as easy to understand this as possible.
Your argument is the abstract one. You are laying out what I think are mostly bullshit choices, based on hypotheticals and assumptions (abstract). I am talking about what is happening right now (not abstract).
I am definitely not going to get drawn into the finer points of what Biden has or hasn’t done or even more lamely, what he might or mightn’t do, but I will say this: I do not give one fuck about anything in your list compared to genocide. Like are you for real? Genocide but at least some loan forgiveness? Gross.
You basically just said you don’t care about the future and are only concerned with the present if it relates to the ongoing genocide of Palestinians. You don’t care about how your inaction will affect any other topic. You’re like a fucking horse with blinders on.
Nice job including it in the list. I think it is sick to try to bribe me (with any of those things) into supporting genocide. Also, be honest with yourself, out of all those things you listed do you genuinely think Biden would somehow deliver on any of them (except the genocide)?
Yeah, I do, like harm reduction. Which is what a vote for Biden is. I’m not willing to accelerate the situation in the middle East, climate change, pollution and erosion of rights to make an ineffective point.
Ah but I hear you say Biden isn’t perfect, no the fuck he isn’t but we’re that much further from the left thanks to last time we tried this in 2016.
I know what “not perfect” looks like. Full-throated support of a genocide is more than a difference of opinion. Will anyone be left alive in Gaza by the time of our election? I can’t take the idea of campaigning for genocide as a form of “harm reduction”.
So what is your alternative? Do nothing and let even more genocide happen? Vote 3rd party and pretend you did more than nothing by voting for someone that is statistically impossible to win?
Its an honest question, because you’re clearly against harm reduction at all. If your principles don’t allow you to engage in harm reduction, what is your better solution? Doom posting on the internet till the election?
The ball’s entirely in Biden’s court. The alternative is him doing an about face and doing what’s right. Notice how none of the moderates act like this is even an option. No, it is us, the voter who must compromise on our morals, not the person in charge who needs the vote.
When election day comes, there are only two realistic candidates. If Biden is still in support of Israel at that time, your effective choices are “Genocide”, “Much More Genocide”, or “I don’t care if there is more genocide”
Welcome to the political process. You want to be an innocent? Find yourself an autocrat willing to take responsibility for your participation in society. The rest of us will deal with the ugly process of wielding political power as citizens.
I voted for the Democrats last time. They don’t deserve my vote this time. I was under the illusion that they would be plugging up all the holes in the system so that we could move forward from this fascist nightmare. Instead, they seem to be ceding ground to the fascists.
I genuinely 100% think that Democrats would much prefer Donald Trump’s victory than a progressive platform.
If the alternative to genocide is more genocide, then we are in a failed state for all relevant purposes. I cannot abide the concept of “harm reduction” being applied to voting for genocide (the supreme crime). If I am against harm reduction, then it follows that you are for genocide. Do you see how that works?
The election is nearly 6 months away, so we both have time to think and do a lot of stuff. The world changes around us everyday. Maybe Trump will have a heart attack and die. Maybe Biden will kill himself out of guilt. Who knows? Maybe I’ll keep reading headlines about Biden reaffirming his commitment to genocide, and posts from pugjesus about how dumb (or Russian) I must be for not recognizing how cool Joe actually i.
I hope that answers your question, and I have one for you: Imagine you convince someone like me to vote for Joe, and together we all post pro-Joe content, and we all vote real hard for him in November, and he still doesn’t quite pull it off. Even best case it’s basically a coin toss. What are you planning to do then? I mean, it will be the end of democracy, the new era of fascism and terror. Do you have plans (and means) to leave the country with your loved ones? Do you plan to stay and fight to protect your friends and neighbors? Will you just kind of muddle on going to work and voting? I don’t need your answer as much as I need you to think seriously about it, but I am curious. What preparations are you making for the worst case scenario?
Maybe I’ll keep reading headlines about Biden reaffirming his commitment to genocide, and posts from pugjesus about how dumb (or Russian) I must be for not recognizing how cool Joe actually i.
Sorry that being confronted with the consequences of your decisions is so distressing to you. It would be so nice if you could show Mean Ol’ Joe how very, very cross you are with him without having to think about the millions who will suffer under a Trump regime, or the additional aid to Israeli genocide that would result in.
It’s much nicer when you can plug your ears and not listen to the screams of the genocides you’re enabling, isn’t it?
Do you have any principles that you won’t compromise on?
Do you know how a first past the post electoral system works? Or are you young and naive, thinking that politics isn’t about compromise?
Seems like compromise is “the political party does whatever they want and you guarantee your undying loyalty to them with your vote”. You speak of youth and naivety, but only an idiot would accept such a “deal”. If our votes have power then we should wield it.
The fact that you think voting is an undying loyalty and not a simple strategic decision baffles me, and embodies the exact argument I keep seeing on here. You know how you wield the power of your vote? USE IT. Voting 3rd party is really dumb right now but in theory okay. Not voting simply means you don’t care.
I don’t think voting in general is undying loyalty, I think guaranteeing your vote to a party no matter what they do is undying loyalty. That’s what they demand and expect because the other guy is worse, but if that’s the strategy then they have no need to ever actually improve things because the other guy will always be worse.
You have a choice between two candidates who can win the election. There is no third party who can win. You speak as if there is one in a first past the post electoral system. There isn’t. If you have a way forward that doesn’t further slide us into fascism and also isn’t supportive of genocide, please enlighten me.
Sadly our only option is to not for for Trump, and the only other viable candidate is Biden. I don’t like it anymore then you do, but until we replace our electoral system with one that is more fair, it’s what we have to work with.
If the threat of withholding your vote does not scare the party that is supposedly saving democracy, then they probably don’t actually care about democracy, especially when they prioritize genocide over getting those votes.
I’d much prefer a ranked choice voting system where we had viable third parties. At the end of the day, one of two people will win the election. If you make one issue your entire focus, you lose sight of the big picture. I’ll just say this - genocide is not a joke, it’s fucked up, and I believe Israel is committing it in Gaza.
Putting that aside for now, do you care about anything else politically? Do you believe a woman should not be allowed to have an abortion, or do you support further tax cuts for the billionaires?
You’re arguing with basically bots.
You never can tell at this point. Some people are just low information, single issue voters. I dont doubt there are a lot of astroturfing trolls here though, especially since it’s an election year.
I’m not completely, but mostly sure that all of this is astroturfed. It’s crazy to me.
And you don’t need to vote for him either.
Just go sharpen your guillotines.
Politics is absolutely about compromise, but Democrats never really compromise with progressives. The most we get is putting weed in the hands of the pharmaceutical companies, Yippee.
Sigh. They compromise with Republicans because they don’t have all three of the house of representatives, the Senate, and the presidency. You want them to not compromise with Republicans? Give them all 3 consistently and overwhelmingly.
So, your only solution to fixing the country is to win a super majority every single election for all time, lest the next time the Republican wins, we will be a fascist dictatorship. Well, that doesn’t seem very tenable, does it?
Guess we’re just boned, right?
Wow, the strategy of consistently voting for the party that most aligns with your values? What idiots!
/s
Are you really implying that there is a conceivable reality in which Democrats win every election for the rest of time?
I’m saying if you want progress, then give Dems overwhelming and consistent victories.
You need to twist that to ‘lest we be fascist dictatorship’. We’ll see what happens after Trump, if the Republicans continue on that path. But whether they do or don’t, we’re back to progress and if you want progress.
I posits that Democrats are not the party of progress as long as they ignore progressives.
Im politically homeless.
They can’t be progressive when they keep losing any of the 1) House of representatives, 2) Senate, or 3) Presidency. You want progress? Give them all 3 consistently and overwhelmingly.
So literally what I said, we have to win overwhelming super majorities and every single branch where there’s no hope for the country. Got it, untenable.
So that’s a no then? About principles?
So you’re saying that… I should abide by principles… by allowing my country to further descend into fascism… by not voting for a politician that could prevent that…
…right. You’re a smart mother fucker.
Don’t be mad at me because I forced you to confront your own lack of principles. I’ve got a principle, personally, that won’t allow me to vote for a genocidaire. I don’t think that’s a very high fucking bar. If we have found ourselves at an election where our choices are between two fascists, then we are already in fascism. If there is no way to vote for “no genocide” then there is no serious reason to vote.
Pretty clearly it’s not a very high bar, since you’re supporting an intensification of that genocide and the commencement of several others. That’s a bar too low to limbo under.
Yeah man, I’m sorry but if you’re doing a genocide, fuck you. I’ve got nothing but hate for you. I don’t care who you are, or who might also do the same thing. I’ll hate them too. That’s what a principle is. If more people had such a principle maybe we could make real political changes instead of giving “political capital” to war criminals.
It’s a shame you hate yourself so much. Wait, if you’re pursuing multiple genocides, as you are by furiously seeking a Trump victory, is your hate multiplied?
Looks like you lost another one.
Ready to shift that full throated rhetoric yet?
Okay, you’ve hit on exactly what I don’t get.
Most Federal elections aren’t about good vs. bad. They’re about choosing the lesser of two evils. That’s important to remember.
As I see it, a vote for Biden OR Trump is a vote supporting genocide. On that one issue, sadly, there’s no real choice.
However, voting for Trump also brings with it sexism, racism and an inevitable threat to democracy - in addition to genocide. Crucially, changing the system for the better would become MUCH harder under Trump. Choosing not to vote at all (or voting for a 3rd party candidate with no real chance of winning) helps Trump. It would be giving up on yourself, and society as a whole. It would be saying that things are too broken to be fixed, ever, so it’s okay to let future generations suffer.
I don’t see the moral benefit in failing to choose the lesser of two evils.
When full support for genocide is “the lesser of two evils” then you’ve already lost. It’s straight up evil.
It can ALWAYS get worse
A system that only allows you to choose between two enthusiastic war criminals should be given up on. There is no saving or reforming such a system. An election boycott and riots in the street are a preferable choice as far as I’m concerned.
What are you doing about electoral reform, I’m curious
I’m not doing shit about electoral reform. I would like to understand exactly the kind of optimism it takes to believe that meaningful electoral reform is a real possibility. Give me your realistic roadmap to a materially better system, accomplished through reforming the current one. I don’t expect a detailed plan, but what are the broad strokes?
Well? We’re waiting.
Which is why evil always wins.
So you base your voting decision on an abstracted philosophical argument? Maybe take a good look at the US voting system and ask yourself what happens when Trump wins because people like you upheld their “principles”.
I don’t understand why it is so hard to grasp that opposition to an ongoing genocide is not “an abstracted philosophical argument”. Wake the fuck up. It’s real, and it’s happening right now. The guy you insist I vote for is angry at the idea that anyone (not even himself) be held criminally responsible!
The only other option is indefinitely worse, so the responsible thing to do is voting for Biden. You can still oppose the war on Gaza. Protest it. Be loud. Fight to change the shitty undemocratic voting system of the US. Not voting Biden will not save a single life in Gaza. You are the one who needs to wake up.
It’a abstract because you aren’t considering the consequences of your vote. Here are your choices:
Genocide, unions, anti-monopoly actions, infrastructure, healthcare, loan forgiveness, an excellent cabinet, and some other things that I would consider generally good
Genocide, insurrection, corruption, hypocrisy, and literally so many negative things to list that I’m not capable of enumerating even a fraction of the total list
Either of the above is fine, pick whichever
Those are your ONLY three options. It does not matter why you choose one. It does not matter what you believe, what principles you hold, or what you personally would do as president. The future that we find ourselves in comes down to this choice and this choice only. I cannot understand how a good person who understands this would make the wrong choice, so my goal is to make it as easy to understand this as possible.
Your argument is the abstract one. You are laying out what I think are mostly bullshit choices, based on hypotheticals and assumptions (abstract). I am talking about what is happening right now (not abstract).
I am definitely not going to get drawn into the finer points of what Biden has or hasn’t done or even more lamely, what he might or mightn’t do, but I will say this: I do not give one fuck about anything in your list compared to genocide. Like are you for real? Genocide but at least some loan forgiveness? Gross.
You basically just said you don’t care about the future and are only concerned with the present if it relates to the ongoing genocide of Palestinians. You don’t care about how your inaction will affect any other topic. You’re like a fucking horse with blinders on.
The options are genocide and loan forgiveness, or genocide and no loan forgiveness. Also nice job picking the least important item in that list.
Nice job including it in the list. I think it is sick to try to bribe me (with any of those things) into supporting genocide. Also, be honest with yourself, out of all those things you listed do you genuinely think Biden would somehow deliver on any of them (except the genocide)?
Yeah, I do, like harm reduction. Which is what a vote for Biden is. I’m not willing to accelerate the situation in the middle East, climate change, pollution and erosion of rights to make an ineffective point.
Ah but I hear you say Biden isn’t perfect, no the fuck he isn’t but we’re that much further from the left thanks to last time we tried this in 2016.
Hillary Clinton was campaigning on (and truly did believe given her track record) in universal healthcare. How exactly have we moved to the left?
I’m not saying she would have moved us to the left I’m saying Donald Trump moved us to the right.
So that’s Biden’s excuse for being to the right of Hillary?
When you run against an incumbent (Trump) you get a center candidate and platform.
None but that’s a different argument not the one at hand.
I know what “not perfect” looks like. Full-throated support of a genocide is more than a difference of opinion. Will anyone be left alive in Gaza by the time of our election? I can’t take the idea of campaigning for genocide as a form of “harm reduction”.
So what is your alternative? Do nothing and let even more genocide happen? Vote 3rd party and pretend you did more than nothing by voting for someone that is statistically impossible to win?
Its an honest question, because you’re clearly against harm reduction at all. If your principles don’t allow you to engage in harm reduction, what is your better solution? Doom posting on the internet till the election?
The ball’s entirely in Biden’s court. The alternative is him doing an about face and doing what’s right. Notice how none of the moderates act like this is even an option. No, it is us, the voter who must compromise on our morals, not the person in charge who needs the vote.
When election day comes, there are only two realistic candidates. If Biden is still in support of Israel at that time, your effective choices are “Genocide”, “Much More Genocide”, or “I don’t care if there is more genocide”
Welcome to the political process. You want to be an innocent? Find yourself an autocrat willing to take responsibility for your participation in society. The rest of us will deal with the ugly process of wielding political power as citizens.
I voted for the Democrats last time. They don’t deserve my vote this time. I was under the illusion that they would be plugging up all the holes in the system so that we could move forward from this fascist nightmare. Instead, they seem to be ceding ground to the fascists.
I genuinely 100% think that Democrats would much prefer Donald Trump’s victory than a progressive platform.
I don’t suppose you’ve ever considered that the Democrats think that the US electorate isn’t as far left as the average Lemmy user?
Wonderful. If they don’t need the far left voters, then what exactly is the problem?
Let’s see how that strategy plays out.
If the alternative to genocide is more genocide, then we are in a failed state for all relevant purposes. I cannot abide the concept of “harm reduction” being applied to voting for genocide (the supreme crime). If I am against harm reduction, then it follows that you are for genocide. Do you see how that works?
The election is nearly 6 months away, so we both have time to think and do a lot of stuff. The world changes around us everyday. Maybe Trump will have a heart attack and die. Maybe Biden will kill himself out of guilt. Who knows? Maybe I’ll keep reading headlines about Biden reaffirming his commitment to genocide, and posts from pugjesus about how dumb (or Russian) I must be for not recognizing how cool Joe actually i.
I hope that answers your question, and I have one for you: Imagine you convince someone like me to vote for Joe, and together we all post pro-Joe content, and we all vote real hard for him in November, and he still doesn’t quite pull it off. Even best case it’s basically a coin toss. What are you planning to do then? I mean, it will be the end of democracy, the new era of fascism and terror. Do you have plans (and means) to leave the country with your loved ones? Do you plan to stay and fight to protect your friends and neighbors? Will you just kind of muddle on going to work and voting? I don’t need your answer as much as I need you to think seriously about it, but I am curious. What preparations are you making for the worst case scenario?
Sorry that being confronted with the consequences of your decisions is so distressing to you. It would be so nice if you could show Mean Ol’ Joe how very, very cross you are with him without having to think about the millions who will suffer under a Trump regime, or the additional aid to Israeli genocide that would result in.
It’s much nicer when you can plug your ears and not listen to the screams of the genocides you’re enabling, isn’t it?
“It’s much nicer when you can plug your ears and not listen to the screams of the genocides you’re enabling, isn’t it?”
It’ll be so fun when I’m going to the death camps and you’re safe and sound in your suburban home, listening to the news reports on the radio. 😊
You think that’s what will happen to you because that’s what you’re supporting in Gaza right now.