WHAT

  • Former U.S. President Donald J. Trump was shot at a rally in PA.

TRUMPS STATEMENT

“I want to thank The United States Secret Service, and all of Law Enforcement, for their rapid response on the shooting that just took place in Butler, Pennsylvania. Most importantly, I want to extend my condolences to the family of the person at the Rally who was killed, and also to the family of another person that was badly injured. It is incredible that such an act can take place in our Country. Nothing is known at this time about the shooter, who is now dead. I was shot with a bullet that pierced the upper part of my right ear. I knew immediately that something was wrong in that I heard a whizzing sound, shots, and immediately felt the bullet ripping through the skin. Much bleeding took place, so I realized then what was happening. GOD BLESS AMERICA!”

WHAT WE THINK WE KNOW SO FAR

  • gunman is dead
  • Trump “is fine”
  • one attendee is dead
  • another attendee is in critical condition

News Sources

  • jeffw@lemmy.world
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    5 months ago

    Do not advocate or celebrate violence, please. Comments advocating violence will be deleted and bans will be issued.

    Also, please avoid promoting conspiracies. Discussing current events is fine but suggesting things like “it’s a false flag” without evidence is spreading a conspiracy.

      • irotsoma@lemmy.world
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        5 months ago

        Communism, not Fascism, or to protect workers’ rights if you go back far enough. We only got involved in fighting fascism because we were drawn into the war, otherwise it’s never been that big of an issue to Americans and many schools aren’t even allowed to teach about it anymore because “kids shouldn’t have to feel bad about something like that” or whatever excuses the far right is currently using to prevent their schools from teaching about Anne Frank, concentration camps, slavery, anything else they want to implement themselves.

    • Christer Enfors@lemm.ee
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      5 months ago

      spreading a conspiracy

      I know this is off-topic, but can we please go back to saying “conspiracy theory”? Conspiracy and conspiracy theories are not the same. There are actual conspiracies (a secret plan by a group to do something unlawful or harmful) , and there are theories of conspiracies. They should not be confused.

      • Malfeasant@lemmy.world
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        5 months ago

        Surprised you’re not already banned just for the c-word. I mean, if someone crashes their car through a storefront, I could speculate without evidence that the driver was excessively old, young, drunk, or just plain stupid and it’s left up to the reader to take my comment with a grain of salt, but if I so much as entertain the possibility of this shooting being anything besides what is being reported by official channels, I must be silenced.

      • SleezyDizasta@lemmy.world
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        5 months ago

        That’s not a justification for more violence, two wrongs don’t make a right. He was wrong for doing what he did and this is wrong as well. This is because political violence in it’s entirety is wrong. Jesus, do people not have principles anymore? Seeing all the supposedly moral people turn into Q anon level conspiracy theorists who condone violence is depressing.

            • in4aPenny@lemmy.world
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              5 months ago

              Millions of fascists were murdered to win WW2, are you saying we should’ve used strong debate language instead?

          • SleezyDizasta@lemmy.world
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            5 months ago

            But these are vastly different situations. For the record, all three of these individuals used political violence to achieve political aims, that’s one of the reasons why history doesn’t remember them fondly. The constantly killed people they didn’t like under the justification that it’s for the greater good or self defense. Saddam Hussien did that when he genocided the Kurds in Iraq and the invasion Kuwait, Hitler did that with the Holocaust and the invasion of Europe, and Bin Laden did that with 9/11 and the other terrorist attacks he launched.

            Keep in mind, we actually have a justice system in this country that actually works. If we want Trump to face justice it has to go through the justice where he faces trial and is found guilty based on evidence… which has already happened btw for one of his crimes. That’s how justice is handled in a civil democracy. We can’t have randos going on self righteous terrorism crusades killing political candidates they don’t like. If someone tried assassinate Biden, would you being say the same? Probably not, and rightfully so, but the terrorist who tried to kill would be making similar justifications to what you’re trying to make right now. The very idea is wrong.

            • RampantParanoia2365@lemmy.world
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              5 months ago

              Donald Trump intentionally and maliciously mishandled an epidemic and allowed it to turn pandemic for his own stupid and shortsighted political gains. He then intentionally hindered national response.

              And then he intentionally incited a literal insurrection. He has absolutely employed political violence.

              • SleezyDizasta@lemmy.world
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                5 months ago

                I’m not here to defend him. He’s one of the worst of the presidents in our history. His list of horrendous acts goes far beyond his pandemic response and the insurrection, and it goes was past his presidency too. He’s truly awful. But with that being said, things like assassinations and terrorism should not become normalized as a legitimate way of achieving political means.

        • otp@sh.itjust.works
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          5 months ago

          two wrongs don’t make a right.

          You’re right. But let me tell you all about the sympathy I have for him:

          .

          That’s about it.

        • Nora@lemmy.ml
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          5 months ago

          A wrong makes a right if it prevents many many horrible wrongs in the future.

          • SleezyDizasta@lemmy.world
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            5 months ago

            The ends don’t justify the means politics, that’s how you end up with terrorism, tyrannical governments, and atrocities. I’m all for bringing Trump to justice, but it has be done through civil and democratic means via the established criminal justice system. If Trump goes through trial and is found guilty, which has already happened for one of his crimes, then our criminal justice system will punish him accordingly. If the punishments aren’t deemed harsh enough then we reform our punitive laws. We can’t have self righteous assholes going on terrorism crusades assassinating political candidates they don’t like. That’s a sign of a failed state.

              • SleezyDizasta@lemmy.world
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                5 months ago

                True, which is why now is the most important time to condemn political violence, get people politically active, and vote to keep the fascist wannabes out of power.

        • KillingTimeItself@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          5 months ago

          one wrong plus another wrong, generally seems to overthrow most rights throughout the history of man kind.

          I’m not sure what to do with this information, but it’s present.

        • retrospectology@lemmy.world
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          5 months ago

          Tell me, should we have turned the other cheek during WWII? Two wrongs don’t make a right after all, right?

          • SleezyDizasta@lemmy.world
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            5 months ago

            We didn’t join WWII because the Nazis were bad, we joined because Japan attacked Pearl Harbor and then Hitler declared war on the US.

              • girlfreddy@lemmy.ca
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                5 months ago

                Really? You don’t realize that the US didn’t join a war that started in 1939 until 1941 when Japan bombed Pearl Harbor … so was only part of the war for less than 4 years?

                Wow!

                • retrospectology@lemmy.world
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                  5 months ago

                  You inferred something about Nazis, and now what you’re saying makes no sense as a response to what I’ve been asking you.

                  I’ll put it more clearly so you can actually give an answer: When Japan bombed Pearl Harbor, you’re saying we should’ve turned the other cheek?

      • DoucheBagMcSwag@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        5 months ago

        This shit was never here before because it’s likely CYA mode for Lemmy because feds could come sniffing here if copycat incidents occur.

      • John Richard@lemmy.world
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        5 months ago

        How many deaths did it result in? Cause there is only one death on Jan 6 that has ever been attributed to Jan 6.

        I don’t disagree that he incited the insurrection, but making false claims doesn’t help show that the left is the party of honesty.

        • ABCDE@lemmy.world
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          5 months ago

          The left, who? What party?

          https://www.factcheck.org/2021/11/how-many-died-as-a-result-of-capitol-riot/

          Babbitt plus suicides, and other “natural” deaths.

          On March 7, the District of Columbia’s Police and Firefighters’ Retirement and Relief Board declared that Metropolitan Police Officer Jeffrey Smith’s suicide in the days after the Jan. 6 riot was a line-of-duty death. The board concluded “that Officer Smith sustained a personal injury on January 6, 2021, while performing his duties and that his injury was the sole and direct cause of his death.

        • JJROKCZ@lemmy.world
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          5 months ago

          Hey numbnuts, America doesn’t have a left and it’s the MAGA fascists that are the problem here

        • retrospectology@lemmy.world
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          5 months ago

          Why are you pretending like right-wing violence isn’t the literal leading domestic security threat?

          Have you been living under a rock since 2016?

            • retrospectology@lemmy.world
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              Well, yeah, I mean, we can go back a hundred years, conservatives will always be pushing violence and division whatever era you look at since they can’t hold power without it, I mostly mean it’s come out fully into the open since 2016. The mask dropped off completely and they’re no longer even pretending to be anything but the Confederacy 2.0.

    • HappycamperNZ@lemmy.world
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      5 months ago

      I know you have to say this, but holy shit do I disagree.

      This person advocated significant violence and contributed to the deaths and loss of human rights of thousands. A good whack of the world would turn up hungover to work tomorrow after celebrating only a few inches over.

      • Drewelite@lemmynsfw.com
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        5 months ago

        No better fuel for an extremist ideology then having a martyr. Trump isn’t the problem, it’s the millions who listen to him.

        • JJROKCZ@lemmy.world
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          Trump is absolutely the problem when he’s the mouthpiece of American fascism. Why are we pretending his death would be bad? We’re a couple years from having concentration camps in the US if he wins and everyone’s wringing their hands over this attempt at saving millions of lives by taking one.

          Yea it might cause a civil war, that looks unavoidable at this point anyway. I’d rather civil war than concentration camps

          • Drewelite@lemmynsfw.com
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            5 months ago

            They’re still waving the Confederate flag. What makes you think bullets will kill this ideology in round 2?

            • snooggums@midwest.social
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              5 months ago

              It would silence one of the most successful voices and hamper the movement, not kill the ideology itself.

              • Drewelite@lemmynsfw.com
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                5 months ago

                And how do you kill the ideology? By having the most successful voice of it ultimately accomplish nothing and die as a sad old man.

                There’s a reason his rhetoric has been: “The election was stolen!” Because that feeling is powerful, that they were right on the cusp of doing something great, if only the enemy hadn’t poisoned it. It’s got the right mix of victimization and hope that really motivates a movement. You’ll get that 10x now that he’s victimized. And you’d get it 20x if he’s martyred.

                • snooggums@midwest.social
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                  5 months ago

                  You can’t kill any ideology.

                  Nazis are still around.

                  Confederate apologists are still around.

                  The only effective end to the tyrrany of their ideology when it had enough momentum wasn’t strong words and voting. MAGA is about three small steps from turning the US into a literal fascist state.

                  The only thing that holds authoritarian regimes like the MAGA crowd together are narcissists like Trump. They would collapse without someone as good at stoking their anger, and he really is the only one that is personally revered by the MAGA crowd. Sure, other grifters make money and get ciews, but nobody cares when the other grifters like Alex Jones face some justice.

                  • Cuttlefish1111@lemmy.world
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                    5 months ago

                    We can educate and shame a population for voicing their support for said fascism. In fact it was working pretty well until Trump made it ok to be a bigot publicly again. That’s what’s the whole MAGA thing is about

    • Audacious@sh.itjust.works
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      5 months ago

      How do the people get justice for a convicted criminal that’s above the law? Is there a reason why the constitution has an amendment for guns? Why are so many platforms against the constitution and against the need for correct course when apt?

      Stop acting like corpo reddit admins and mods.

      • OldWoodFrame@lemm.ee
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        5 months ago

        “Convicted criminal” who is “above the law?”

        Seems like he was convicted, thus not above the law.

        You keep him from being president by getting enough people to vote against him, or you accept the will of the people.

        The 2nd Amendment was originally to make sure militias weren’t disarmed, in a time when militias were more relevant. Has nothing to do with political assassination.

        • FordBeeblebrox@lemmy.world
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          5 months ago

          How about when said political candidate openly calls for violence and murder against his opponents, to the point of asking the Supreme Court if he could assassinate people.

          Maybe the 2nd amendment comes in to play a little? Last I checked we didn’t vote king George off our shores.

          • OldWoodFrame@lemm.ee
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            5 months ago

            But we did vote Trump out of office, and he left. That’s the difference between Republics and Monarchies.

      • Draedron@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        5 months ago

        Advocating for violence to prevent a fascist from abolishing the democracy is the only acceptable violence. Sometimes a democracy has to be protected violently if it is too weak to protect itself. Trump allies always say its why they have the second amendment. Now that it is used against them they cry about it.

          • NoSpiritAnimal@lemmy.world
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            5 months ago

            The paradox of tolerance is only a paradox if you don’t believe in the social contract.

            Beliefs that violate the social contract deserve no protection under it.

        • 𝓔𝓶𝓶𝓲𝓮@lemm.ee
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          5 months ago

          Violence is rarely good for anything as we have seen it just now. It would be better even if this guy shot at Biden that’s how counterproductive it is.

          Modern problems aren’t solved with blood but with marketing. You cannot kill an idea but you can ridicule it

          You cannot just eradicate everyone who opposes you. China tried, Soviets too. Now they have something vastly better - troll farms.

          • Riccosuave@lemmy.world
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            5 months ago

            Modern problems aren’t solved with blood but with marketing.

            Tell that to the Ukrainians and the Palestinians. I know you want this to be the case, but you couldn’t be more wrong if you tried.

              • Evil_incarnate@lemm.ee
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                5 months ago

                Not sure what you mean, but Ukraine and Zelensky have been marketing themselves all over the place. They need all the help they can get, and they are doing whatever they can to boost support. So far pootin hasn’t achieved his goals so it’s working.

              • shiroininja@lemmy.world
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                5 months ago

                Appeasement of an aggressor never works. History has taught this over and over and over again. We still haven’t learned I see. I’m mainly talking about Ukraine. Palestine is a lot more complex.

              • Riccosuave@lemmy.world
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                5 months ago

                You’re right, better to allow a violent oppressor to slowly eradicate your people than attempt to free or defend yourself by whatever means necessary…

                • 𝓔𝓶𝓶𝓲𝓮@lemm.ee
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                  5 months ago

                  Eh I think you guys see what you want to see in my comment. I was talking about Russia. putin attacked Ukraine, it was insane in any case and what did he got out of it really?

                  The violence on Ukraine was just plain stupid.

                  I am kinda surprised and amused you take me for some pacifist goodie two shoes, other cheek blah blah. funny from my pov. Idk how you extracted that from my comment, I bet you will now continue to argue with something that doesn’t exist. My congratulations

          • Wxnzxn@lemmy.ml
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            5 months ago

            Your last point is actually not a bad analysis - but it is missing that the ones operating their propaganda and troll farms already also control the violence monopoly. And both entities also use violence where they deem it practical.

      • orcrist@lemm.ee
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        5 months ago

        My friend, you know exactly what they mean. Don’t push a “well maybe somebody set it up because …” theory unless you have facts to back it up.

        • Wilzax@lemmy.world
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          5 months ago

          Obviously someone set this up, bullets don’t just appear out of nowhere. It may have just been the gunman who acted entirely alone. We have no evidence that anyone worked with the gunman but what’s that saying about the absence of evidence?

          • Echo Dot@feddit.uk
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            5 months ago

            Yeah but there’s also no evidence that this was anything other than a single person acting on their own. Most loan shooters are actually loners.

          • orcrist@lemm.ee
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            5 months ago

            You can’t use the English language in an openly misleading fashion and expect that people are going to go along with it, not in a situation like this. The expression “someone set this up” clearly implies the existence of a second person.

            What made you think that another person is involved? Nothing. If we were to look at historical evidence, we would find that a lot of these situations are done by so-called lone wolf attackers. So if we’re going to blindly speculate, we should at least be consistent with historical evidence, and we should certainly speak unambiguously.

          • jeffw@lemmy.worldM
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            5 months ago

            The issue is the volume of comments about this being faked entirely or a false flag.

      • meowoem@lemy.lol
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        5 months ago

        This sub has some crazy censorship. I’m pretty sure it’s all right-wing mods.

      • jeffw@lemmy.worldM
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        5 months ago

        Was it wrong when Trump triggered Jan 6 with his calls for violence?

        If yes, why do you get to call for violence?

        If no, you should read more about the ramifications of Jan 6

      • barkingspiders@infosec.pub
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        5 months ago

        This community can be whatever it wants to be. If you want to advocate for violence you are free to do that elsewhere in the fediverse. Just not here.

      • jeffw@lemmy.worldM
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        5 months ago

        If the only way you can discuss an assassination is by advocating for additional violence and pushing lies, then I guess not?

        • afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world
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          5 months ago

          pushing lies

          How did you determine what was true in this situation and what was false? I am curious about your methodology.

          • jeffw@lemmy.worldM
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            5 months ago

            True: confirmed information. False: unconfirmed information of a speculative nature. Do you see a specific issue you disagree with or are you just trying to argue?

            • afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world
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              You are just moving the problem around via definitions not actually saying what method you used to know exactly what happened yesterday.

              All I asked is how you arrived at the truth. Did you see evidence that the general public didn’t? Because what I am seeing is you all are so absolutely certain you have literally compared it to Covid misinformation. Amazing, a 30 hour news event is so well understood you can compare our knowledge of it to the single most studied virus in human history months after a new variant had appeared.

              It is not unreasonable how you were able to obtain information the rest of us apparently do not have and how you were able to eliminate all other alternatives so quickly.

        • whoreticulture@lemmy.world
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          5 months ago

          You are limiting discussion to centrist viewpoints, centrism caters towards permissive attitudes towards fascism. You know this.

          • jeffw@lemmy.worldM
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            5 months ago

            Not really what I said at all. “Hey guys, don’t make stuff up, please rely on credible sources, and don’t advocate for violence”.

            Or, in other words: follow the rules we’ve always had in place

            • whoreticulture@lemmy.world
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              5 months ago

              Advocating for, or not advocating for, violence is a political stance. Many people defend Israel’s ongoing genocide and are not blocked from doing so. That doesn’t feel like the rules being consistently enforced. The people speculating on whether or not this is staged have access to the same information as everyone else, and in the spirit of true discourse, if it was seen to be false you could figure that out by discussion rather than censorship.

              • Blackbeard@lemmy.world
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                5 months ago

                If you have evidence that it was staged, feel free to share it. If you don’t, then we ask that you not speculate. It’s no different than any other claim for which we’d require a basic amount of credible substantiation.

                  • jeffw@lemmy.worldM
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                    5 months ago

                    If someone has made a claim that runs counter to commonly acknowledged information, please report it. If you need a few examples…

                    You would need a source to say:

                    • “the new COVID vaccine is dangerous because it has killed people”
                    • “Donald Trump faked an attack on his life”
                    • “this new medical treatment is extremely effective”

                    You would NOT need a source to say:

                    • “Donald Trump was subject of an assassination attempt” (commonly known and widely speculated to be an assassination attempt)
                    • A personal preference like “Chocolate cake is the best kind of cake”
                • whoreticulture@lemmy.world
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                  5 months ago

                  I don’t personally think it was staged, but be honest … it’s not like you delete every single comment that doesn’t have sources …

                  • Blackbeard@lemmy.world
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                    5 months ago

                    We remove comments that make objectively false claims, especially when they involve life or death situations. Covid misinformation is a good example.