This operation has the potential to better Ukraine’s strategic position greatly. Ukraine winning means the dying of civilians stops. Ukraine giving up would not have the same result.
Did ww2 stop when Germany conquered Czechoslovakia? - No.
Did ww2 stop when Germany conquered Poland? - No.
Did ww2 stop when Germany conquered the Netherlands? - No.
Did ww2 stop when Germany conquered Denmark? - No.
would ukraine winning mean civilians stop dying in the eastern oblasts where the coup regime have been murdering civilians and bombing and shelling them since 2014?
Ukraine winning means the dying of civilians stops. Ukraine giving up would not have the same result.
Ukraine winning, Ukraine giving up, Ukraine making a peace deal with Russia, Russia winning - all those options will mean the dying of civilians stops.
The only option where people will continue to die is the option you (probably) support - continuing the war.
Russia winning means, the dying will continue in the suppression of their new subjects and in future invasions since this one would have been successful in the end.
How many people have died from “supression” (whatever it means in this context) in the Crimea, that has been occupied for 10 years now?
And the next question - how come this number (is it 0 or more?) is less then the number of civilians (some of whom be Ukrainians or ex-Ukrainians) that died from Ukrainian shelling of Crimea?
Do you think people should have a choice of dying in this, very real, war, or in some hypothetical could-happen war in the future?
You lie, moskals have been observed to continue stealing, raping, killing and ethnic cleansing long after any hostilities ceased in many armed conflicts before. Their behaviour in Bucha and elsewhere proves they haven’t changed one bit.
You support who fighting back against the aggressor?
People who are now trapped in the biggest mass prison in the world? People who are trying to escape this prison by any means, including through the occupied territories, mountains and rivers? People who are afraid to leave homes and go to grocery shops, because any day they might be kidnapped by “recruitment officers” and forcefully sent to die?
You are not supporting us, you are killing us, together with Russia.
Okay Russian shill, let’s just believe you’re a low intelligence Ukrainian and not actually getting paid.
Citizens have a duty to defend their nation or the nation will cease to exist. If Ukraine ceases to exist then the child murdering Russians have gotten everything they want for the small cost of bombing some children’s hospitals.
So supposing you are a Ukrainian, you’re a disgrace and a coward.
But it seems to me that many many Ukranian citizens are actively fighting to ensure their survival and the survival of their nation, so by your own logic it should exist. If you don’t want to fight, that’s fine. Don’t fight. There should be no duty to fight, but if you love your country, and want your way of life to continue, you should fight against the invading forces who want to destroy your country and way of life.
But it seems to me that many many Ukranian citizens are actively fighting to ensure their survival and the survival of their nation
You have outdated info. It might have been somewhat correct 2 years ago, when there were some volunteers. Now - it’s pure propaganda spread by Zelensky and parroted by the western media. Now, the only thing people do “actively” is trying to avoid being kidnapped on the streets or trying to flee the mass prison that is Ukraine, some dying in the rivers/mountains trying to do so.
And even those who fight - they don’t fight for their survival, not even for the survival of the state (although I guess in some sense you can say that), just for some peace of land, which the state wants to control.
If you don’t want to fight, that’s fine. Don’t fight.
Oh really? Thank god I have a choice. Oh right, I don’t - Zelensky’s regime will happily kidnap me, my family and my friends and send everyone to die at the first opportunity they get (although with me it will be harder, because I escaped Ukraine before the war started).
There should be no duty to fight
Indeed, I’m glad that we can at least agree on this.
If only you also stopped supporting those who force this “duty” on others…
but if you love your country
How can I love a country that wants me dead?
and want your way of life to continue, you should fight against the invading forces who want to destroy your country and way of life.
You are (most likely) looking at this from a perspective of a westerner, who has never been in Ukraine and/or Russia. If you live in USA, EU, or basically any other “first world country” - I can see why you would fight Russia to “keep your way of life”. Look at any metric you want (GDP, HDI, corruption, journalist freedom, amount of wooden toilets in the countryside) and you will see that both countries are the same shithole give or take. Average Joe wouldn’t even notice his government has changed.
What is it that makes you so consumed with hate that you are willing to fully align with the russian propaganda? There is nothing wrong with being critical, but if the consequence is, to just pick a side and unconditionally accept their narrative then you’ve given up any critical thinking.
Whom do I hate? People who are trying to kill me and my family and friends? Should I be okay with it?
that you are willing to fully align with the russian propaganda?
I do not “fully align with the Russian propaganda”, only with parts of it that are true… And if I said something that is false, I’d very much like to learn where I’m wrong, if you could just point me exactly what is it that I’ve said that is wrong?
Guaranteed you’ve been to Russia and if you visited Ukraine you probably called it Russia as well.
I haven’t “visited” Ukraine, I’ve lived there.
refusing to give solutions you claim to have
WDYM by that? Quote needed :) My solution is to stop kidnapping innocent people on the streets and forbidding them from leaving the country, as simple as that.
Ah, yet another 4-letter pro-Kremlin account systematically spreading lies and propaganda using the exact same narratives as Russian state-controlled media. Must be a coincidence.
The deleted comment said that I’m lying. By definition it means the author thinks that I’ve said something that is not true, so it can be disproved (or at least one can provide an argument why it’s likely not to be true).
you’ve offered an idiotic opinion
Is there any reason that it is idiotic, other than not being aligned with western propaganda?
That cedeing to a country that openly plans to retake its former Soviet borders will somehow dispite all logic result in Russian withdrawal and lasting peace.
Now, you’ve said peace talks. No one has stopped those and it’s no surprise fighting still has not stopped.
You sure it isn’t the people literally blowing up Ukrainians. If Russia is so altruistic when then do they not see these “desperate prisoners of war” and give them mercy by withdrawimg from Ukraine since as your source says they are there killing civilians… Children… For a fucking political stunt.
That cedeing to a country that openly plans to retake its former Soviet borders will somehow dispite all logic result in Russian withdrawal and lasting peace.
If anything, the initial proposal was about Russia cedeing territory that it has captured (since 2022 invasion) to Ukraine, not the other way around.
No one has stopped those
No one has been doing any serious peace talks after the initial ones either.
You sure it isn’t the people literally blowing up Ukrainians
Those as well, but you have to deal with more immediate problem first.
It’s funny that you call me a fascist, despite me arguing against fascism :)
Wikipedia:
Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/ FASH-iz-əm) is a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement,[1][2][3] characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation or race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy.[2][3]
How many of those points are not true about current Ukrainian government?
Okay, you hate Russia.
But why do you hate Ukrainians? Why do we have to die for your grudge with Russia?
This operation has the potential to better Ukraine’s strategic position greatly. Ukraine winning means the dying of civilians stops. Ukraine giving up would not have the same result.
Did ww2 stop when Germany conquered Czechoslovakia? - No.
Did ww2 stop when Germany conquered Poland? - No.
Did ww2 stop when Germany conquered the Netherlands? - No.
Did ww2 stop when Germany conquered Denmark? - No.
Did ww2 stop when Germany conquered France? - No.
Did ww2 stop when Germany conquered Norway? - No.
Ww2 ended, when Nazi Germany was defeated.
would ukraine winning mean civilians stop dying in the eastern oblasts where the coup regime have been murdering civilians and bombing and shelling them since 2014?
Ukraine winning, Ukraine giving up, Ukraine making a peace deal with Russia, Russia winning - all those options will mean the dying of civilians stops.
The only option where people will continue to die is the option you (probably) support - continuing the war.
That is not my perception.
Russia winning means, the dying will continue in the suppression of their new subjects and in future invasions since this one would have been successful in the end.
How many people have died from “supression” (whatever it means in this context) in the Crimea, that has been occupied for 10 years now?
And the next question - how come this number (is it 0 or more?) is less then the number of civilians (some of whom be Ukrainians or ex-Ukrainians) that died from Ukrainian shelling of Crimea?
Do you think people should have a choice of dying in this, very real, war, or in some hypothetical could-happen war in the future?
Bro people died defending it and the rest fled so they weren’t raped or sledgehammered to death.
What’s your solution dipshit.
Are we still talking about Crimea? Because what you are saying is completely false…
Please link some proofs to what you’re saying.
Are you honestly looking for proof of the crimean invasion famously costing Ukraine an international airport and many many dead defenders.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Antonov_Airport
The only people who say no one died dispite all evidence otherwise is Russia.
Ed: PS claiming you’re Ukrainian is pretty shitty boss, you clearly aren’t what’s next you have cancer and a Canadian girlfriend?
Are you trolling or something?
We are talking about Crimea in 2014, and you are linking an article from 2022 about Kiev…
deleted by creator
You lie, moskals have been observed to continue stealing, raping, killing and ethnic cleansing long after any hostilities ceased in many armed conflicts before. Their behaviour in Bucha and elsewhere proves they haven’t changed one bit.
Oh wow we got some “have to blow off the dust it is so old” racism here
I’m not the one who invaded Ukraine, but i support them fighting back against the aggressor.
would you rather just roll over and let russia take over?
You support who fighting back against the aggressor?
People who are now trapped in the biggest mass prison in the world? People who are trying to escape this prison by any means, including through the occupied territories, mountains and rivers? People who are afraid to leave homes and go to grocery shops, because any day they might be kidnapped by “recruitment officers” and forcefully sent to die?
You are not supporting us, you are killing us, together with Russia.
Okay Russian shill, let’s just believe you’re a low intelligence Ukrainian and not actually getting paid.
Citizens have a duty to defend their nation or the nation will cease to exist. If Ukraine ceases to exist then the child murdering Russians have gotten everything they want for the small cost of bombing some children’s hospitals.
So supposing you are a Ukrainian, you’re a disgrace and a coward.
No, nobody has a duty to die for politicians. If people don’t want to protect their “nation” then it probably shouldn’t exist.
No, you are a coward for not joining the foreign legion and fighting your battles, and instead forcing other people to do your bidding.
But it seems to me that many many Ukranian citizens are actively fighting to ensure their survival and the survival of their nation, so by your own logic it should exist. If you don’t want to fight, that’s fine. Don’t fight. There should be no duty to fight, but if you love your country, and want your way of life to continue, you should fight against the invading forces who want to destroy your country and way of life.
You have outdated info. It might have been somewhat correct 2 years ago, when there were some volunteers. Now - it’s pure propaganda spread by Zelensky and parroted by the western media. Now, the only thing people do “actively” is trying to avoid being kidnapped on the streets or trying to flee the mass prison that is Ukraine, some dying in the rivers/mountains trying to do so.
And even those who fight - they don’t fight for their survival, not even for the survival of the state (although I guess in some sense you can say that), just for some peace of land, which the state wants to control.
Oh really? Thank god I have a choice. Oh right, I don’t - Zelensky’s regime will happily kidnap me, my family and my friends and send everyone to die at the first opportunity they get (although with me it will be harder, because I escaped Ukraine before the war started).
Indeed, I’m glad that we can at least agree on this.
If only you also stopped supporting those who force this “duty” on others…
How can I love a country that wants me dead?
You are (most likely) looking at this from a perspective of a westerner, who has never been in Ukraine and/or Russia. If you live in USA, EU, or basically any other “first world country” - I can see why you would fight Russia to “keep your way of life”. Look at any metric you want (GDP, HDI, corruption, journalist freedom, amount of wooden toilets in the countryside) and you will see that both countries are the same shithole give or take. Average Joe wouldn’t even notice his government has changed.
What is it that makes you so consumed with hate that you are willing to fully align with the russian propaganda? There is nothing wrong with being critical, but if the consequence is, to just pick a side and unconditionally accept their narrative then you’ve given up any critical thinking.
Whom do I hate? People who are trying to kill me and my family and friends? Should I be okay with it?
I do not “fully align with the Russian propaganda”, only with parts of it that are true… And if I said something that is false, I’d very much like to learn where I’m wrong, if you could just point me exactly what is it that I’ve said that is wrong?
Please tell me what made you think so
Guaranteed you’ve been to Russia and if you visited Ukraine you probably called it Russia as well.
You’re not making points you’re laying platitudes and refusing to give solutions you claim to have.
I haven’t “visited” Ukraine, I’ve lived there.
WDYM by that? Quote needed :) My solution is to stop kidnapping innocent people on the streets and forbidding them from leaving the country, as simple as that.
Ah, yet another 4-letter pro-Kremlin account systematically spreading lies and propaganda using the exact same narratives as Russian state-controlled media. Must be a coincidence.
Ah yes, another lemmy.world account accusing me of spreading lies and yet not disproving any of them…
You haven’t said anything to disprove, you’ve offered an idiotic opinion not a fact or anything you even claim to be a fact.
The deleted comment said that I’m lying. By definition it means the author thinks that I’ve said something that is not true, so it can be disproved (or at least one can provide an argument why it’s likely not to be true).
Is there any reason that it is idiotic, other than not being aligned with western propaganda?
They’re implying you’re lying to yourself.
You keep saying everything like you have a solution but won’t say what it is.
It’s idiotic because no bully is going to stop bullying you because you stop fighting back especially when they want something you have.
Your fixing platitudes and dipshit idealism aren’t helpful.
About what?
Already told you what the solution is.
The bully that bullies people in Ukraine is Zelensky though.
That cedeing to a country that openly plans to retake its former Soviet borders will somehow dispite all logic result in Russian withdrawal and lasting peace.
Now, you’ve said peace talks. No one has stopped those and it’s no surprise fighting still has not stopped.
You sure it isn’t the people literally blowing up Ukrainians. If Russia is so altruistic when then do they not see these “desperate prisoners of war” and give them mercy by withdrawimg from Ukraine since as your source says they are there killing civilians… Children… For a fucking political stunt.
If anything, the initial proposal was about Russia cedeing territory that it has captured (since 2022 invasion) to Ukraine, not the other way around.
No one has been doing any serious peace talks after the initial ones either.
Those as well, but you have to deal with more immediate problem first.
Where did I say that?
Ukraine does it as well.
deleted by creator
Yep, that was dumb.
It’s early morning for me and I’ve misunderstood your comment but deleted my reply a moment after sending it, cut me some slack :)
Nope, I don’t cut fascists in any way you might want invite upon yourself boss.
It’s funny that you call me a fascist, despite me arguing against fascism :)
Wikipedia:
How many of those points are not true about current Ukrainian government?