Since when has Marxism been about voting for Socialism? Marx and Marxists have always been revolutionary
Good job cropping out the very next sentence.
If they’re not going to fill in a bubble once every couple years, they sure as hell aren’t going to take to the streets in armed rebellion.
The organization isn’t there. I don’t see a fraction of the organization necessary for that. And we’ve been organizing for what, a century? How long until we’re sufficiently organized, another five centuries? 10? 100? I don’t even see a fraction of the theory literacy to so much as start the process.
Quite a huge leap there, isn’t it?
No, not really. Each of those steps follows naturally from the previous one.
There’s hundreds of years of history proving why that hasn’t worked yet
And what of the hundreds of years of history proving revolution doesn’t work. The USSR? Nice idea, turned into authoritarian state capitalism, then straight up oligarchy inside of a century. The CCP? Authoritarian state capitalism, let’s see how long until oligarchy.
I’m sure you’re about to say “That’s just because the intelligence agencies leashed by American Capital interests interfered!”, as if they’re not way more likely to interfere with an American socialist revolution.
The Proletariat has historically proven to be far more radical than you give them credit for
Starving 19-20th century peasants? Sure. 21st century Americans? Yeah they’re struggling, but they’ve got Amazon and fast food, not to mention propaganda telling them socialism will make their lives even worse. We’re not hitting revolutionary levels of desperation anytime soon. A quarter of the voters in this country voted for the poster child of the bourgeoise because they thought he was an everyman. Even more than that couldn’t be bothered to get off the couch. These are your radical revolutionaries. I’m not holding my breath.
My concern is improving the material conditions of the working class, and elevating their voice and stake in the workplace. Maybe in another century they’ll have the class consciousness to act on revolutionary theory.
It doesn’t change anything, even if I did include it. Electoralism in liberal democracy is not a measure of outright support for Socialism, given the abundance of liberals who would otherwise support Socialists voting Dem.
The organization isn’t there. I don’t see a fraction of the organization necessary for that. And we’ve been organizing for what, a century? How long until we’re sufficiently organized, another five centuries? 10? 100? I don’t even see a fraction of the theory literacy to so much as start the process.
FRSO, Red Star Caucus, PSL, and other groups are doing great org work. Imperialism has inflated living conditions for a long time, but even still conditions are deteriorating and Socialism is gaining in popularity among the advanced of the masses.
No, not really. Each of those steps follows naturally from the previous one.
They don’t. You added steps like “force worker ownership” where they are logical leaps.
And what of the hundreds of years of history proving revolution doesn’t work. The USSR? Nice idea, turned into authoritarian state capitalism, then straight up oligarchy inside of a century. The CCP? Authoritarian state capitalism, let’s see how long until oligarchy.
See, this “authoritarian state Capitalism” bit is exactly why you need to read theory. The USSR and PRC are both examples of Socialism, with huge public sectors and central planning. Can you explain how they are examples of “state capitalism?”
I’m sure you’re about to say “That’s just because the intelligence agencies leashed by American Capital interests interfered!”, as if they’re not way more likely to interfere with an American socialist revolution.
No, actually, though the USSR was invaded by 14 Capitalist nations at its founding. My point is that your previous paragraph is nonsense and devoid of knowledge of Marxism to begin with.
Starving 19-20th century peasants? Sure. 21st century Americans? Yeah they’re struggling, but they’ve got Amazon and fast food, not to mention propaganda telling them socialism will make their lives even worse. We’re not hitting revolutionary levels of desperation anytime soon. A quarter of the voters in this country voted for the poster child of the bourgeoise because they thought he was an everyman. Even more than that couldn’t be bothered to get off the couch. These are your radical revolutionaries. I’m not holding my breath.
Another quarter of voters voted for a different poster child of the bourgeoisie because they thought she was an everywoman. Electoralism isn’t a measure of revolutionary fervor, people abstained because Electoralism doesn’t work.
My concern is improving the material conditions of the working class, and elevating their voice and stake in the workplace. Maybe in another century they’ll have the class consciousness to act on revolutionary theory.
So tepid Capitalism until it crumbles as it inevitably will? You have no plans of substance.
The thing that really pisses me off about you revolutionary absolutists, the core reason I don’t respect you, despise you even, isn’t because you’re smugly wrong. And you are, smugly wrong, overlooking every time revolution hasn’t worked, or worked briefly before collapsing.
The real despicable thing about you is that you know, deep down even when you don’t admit it, that revolution won’t happen without widespread, incredible suffering. Every “successful” revolution has been the result of starvation, abysmal poverty, and authoritarianism. They all lead to widespread death on both sides during the revolution itself. People don’t just overthrow the government on a lark, no matter how much they read. Misery is necessary to inspire people to revolt.
But you don’t care. You want things to get worse. You want people to suffer so much that they’re willing to do anything, that they’ll have nothing left to lose, and you’re hoping they choose your path to salvation.
Based on how much time you have to post online, you’re definitely comfortable. Intellectually you crave revolution, but materially you’ll be fine either way. You don’t care about what the proletariat, the ones who aren’t comfortable, will have to go through on your accelerationist path. As long as you get your revolution, damn the consequences for everyone else. The survivors will live in paradise, however long that lasts.
Didn’t pretend it’ll be bloodless. America quashed revolutions in other countries, they won’t hesitate to do the same at home. People will die. Many, many people. The only way the rest won’t lose their resolve is if the threat of death isn’t really worse than their living conditions. Sure, people are struggling now, but not risk-death-for-a-chance-at-change suffering. We have a long, long way to go before a critical mass of revolutionaries are desperate enough to try.
I want to show people glimpses of a better future, and bit by bit claw their way to better material conditions, alive and intact. You want their lives to get so horrific they literally have no other choice. It’s selfish and cruel. It spits in the face of the compassion for the proletariat which should be sacrosanct to the left.
Yet you sit in your leftist online spaces, elevating century old theory to religious dogma, intellectualizing the fineries of glorious revolution with no empathy for those who will suffer it. Every person who suffers on the descent into misery is righteous fuel for the revolutionary flame. Not you though, you’re comfortable, it’s all theory to you. The blood will be someone else’s blood, if you think about it at all.
This is not a plan of substance. It’s selfish and callous. And that sets aside the consequences of failure, or success followed by collapse.
I don’t respect it. It isn’t respectable. It’s cosplay blind to consequence. I want communism too, but I’m not going to push the people into misery to achieve communism for communism’s sake. The whole point is to elevate the working class, it doesn’t count if you decimate and subjugate them first.
I’m done with this. Keep cosplaying, you’re going to anyway. The grown ups will keep working on solutions that aren’t predicted on misery.
Good job cropping out the very next sentence.
The organization isn’t there. I don’t see a fraction of the organization necessary for that. And we’ve been organizing for what, a century? How long until we’re sufficiently organized, another five centuries? 10? 100? I don’t even see a fraction of the theory literacy to so much as start the process.
No, not really. Each of those steps follows naturally from the previous one.
And what of the hundreds of years of history proving revolution doesn’t work. The USSR? Nice idea, turned into authoritarian state capitalism, then straight up oligarchy inside of a century. The CCP? Authoritarian state capitalism, let’s see how long until oligarchy.
I’m sure you’re about to say “That’s just because the intelligence agencies leashed by American Capital interests interfered!”, as if they’re not way more likely to interfere with an American socialist revolution.
Starving 19-20th century peasants? Sure. 21st century Americans? Yeah they’re struggling, but they’ve got Amazon and fast food, not to mention propaganda telling them socialism will make their lives even worse. We’re not hitting revolutionary levels of desperation anytime soon. A quarter of the voters in this country voted for the poster child of the bourgeoise because they thought he was an everyman. Even more than that couldn’t be bothered to get off the couch. These are your radical revolutionaries. I’m not holding my breath.
My concern is improving the material conditions of the working class, and elevating their voice and stake in the workplace. Maybe in another century they’ll have the class consciousness to act on revolutionary theory.
It doesn’t change anything, even if I did include it. Electoralism in liberal democracy is not a measure of outright support for Socialism, given the abundance of liberals who would otherwise support Socialists voting Dem.
FRSO, Red Star Caucus, PSL, and other groups are doing great org work. Imperialism has inflated living conditions for a long time, but even still conditions are deteriorating and Socialism is gaining in popularity among the advanced of the masses.
They don’t. You added steps like “force worker ownership” where they are logical leaps.
See, this “authoritarian state Capitalism” bit is exactly why you need to read theory. The USSR and PRC are both examples of Socialism, with huge public sectors and central planning. Can you explain how they are examples of “state capitalism?”
No, actually, though the USSR was invaded by 14 Capitalist nations at its founding. My point is that your previous paragraph is nonsense and devoid of knowledge of Marxism to begin with.
Another quarter of voters voted for a different poster child of the bourgeoisie because they thought she was an everywoman. Electoralism isn’t a measure of revolutionary fervor, people abstained because Electoralism doesn’t work.
So tepid Capitalism until it crumbles as it inevitably will? You have no plans of substance.
The thing that really pisses me off about you revolutionary absolutists, the core reason I don’t respect you, despise you even, isn’t because you’re smugly wrong. And you are, smugly wrong, overlooking every time revolution hasn’t worked, or worked briefly before collapsing.
The real despicable thing about you is that you know, deep down even when you don’t admit it, that revolution won’t happen without widespread, incredible suffering. Every “successful” revolution has been the result of starvation, abysmal poverty, and authoritarianism. They all lead to widespread death on both sides during the revolution itself. People don’t just overthrow the government on a lark, no matter how much they read. Misery is necessary to inspire people to revolt.
But you don’t care. You want things to get worse. You want people to suffer so much that they’re willing to do anything, that they’ll have nothing left to lose, and you’re hoping they choose your path to salvation.
Based on how much time you have to post online, you’re definitely comfortable. Intellectually you crave revolution, but materially you’ll be fine either way. You don’t care about what the proletariat, the ones who aren’t comfortable, will have to go through on your accelerationist path. As long as you get your revolution, damn the consequences for everyone else. The survivors will live in paradise, however long that lasts.
Didn’t pretend it’ll be bloodless. America quashed revolutions in other countries, they won’t hesitate to do the same at home. People will die. Many, many people. The only way the rest won’t lose their resolve is if the threat of death isn’t really worse than their living conditions. Sure, people are struggling now, but not risk-death-for-a-chance-at-change suffering. We have a long, long way to go before a critical mass of revolutionaries are desperate enough to try.
I want to show people glimpses of a better future, and bit by bit claw their way to better material conditions, alive and intact. You want their lives to get so horrific they literally have no other choice. It’s selfish and cruel. It spits in the face of the compassion for the proletariat which should be sacrosanct to the left.
Yet you sit in your leftist online spaces, elevating century old theory to religious dogma, intellectualizing the fineries of glorious revolution with no empathy for those who will suffer it. Every person who suffers on the descent into misery is righteous fuel for the revolutionary flame. Not you though, you’re comfortable, it’s all theory to you. The blood will be someone else’s blood, if you think about it at all.
This is not a plan of substance. It’s selfish and callous. And that sets aside the consequences of failure, or success followed by collapse.
I don’t respect it. It isn’t respectable. It’s cosplay blind to consequence. I want communism too, but I’m not going to push the people into misery to achieve communism for communism’s sake. The whole point is to elevate the working class, it doesn’t count if you decimate and subjugate them first.
I’m done with this. Keep cosplaying, you’re going to anyway. The grown ups will keep working on solutions that aren’t predicted on misery.