Most can agree that in the spirit of the game both should have been reds. Both of them bust case because of the subjectivity written into the laws. I will highlight the subjective parts which lead to the refs officiating how they see fit.
SERIOUS FOUL PLAY
A tackle or challenge that endangers the safety of an opponent or uses excessive force or brutality must be sanctioned as serious foul play.
Any player who lunges at an opponent in challenging for the ball from the front, from the side or from behind using one or both legs, with excessive force or endangers the safety of an opponent is guilty of serious foul play.
VIOLENT CONDUCT
Violent conduct is when a player uses or attempts to use excessive force or brutality against an opponent when not challenging for the ball, or against a team-mate, team official, match official, spectator or any other person, regardless of whether contact is made.
In addition, a player who, when not challenging for the ball, deliberately strikes an opponent or any other person on the head or face with the hand or arm, is guilty of violent conduct unless the force used was negligible.
So by the laws of the game, both are are yellows if the refs decide they are, which they did.
So what’s the solution? Is football just an inherently subjective sport? How do you codify the spirit of the game?
There is no rule change needed, they were both red cards, and I say that as a Newcastle fan.
Why rewrite them? They are clear. It is humans that make them subjective.
What’s funny for the Bruno one was the ref was so wank that he didn’t even get a yellow card.
Bruno intentionally hit Jorginho when the ball was nowhere near and he got absolutely no punishment for it.
Retroactive red cards should exist for violent conduct. The refs are shit, but they can’t see everything.
Unironically, make them play for Man United.
I love how they’ve somehow been conflated. Shows the strength of the media.
As someone that officiated once upon a time, a wise referee once told the class that the difference between football and most other sports is that context matters in football.
Like most professions, there is a big difference between learning the rulebook and actual officiating.
Allow me to share the wildest example that I’ve ever experienced personally.
I was assigned to referee a local derby match and the players were boys aged 14-18. A high school match here in the US. During the warmup, the visiting coach informed me that one of his players is accused of getting a player on the home team arrested over spring break. You’d be a fool to think that off field incident didn’t wildly change how I had to referee this match in order to prevent the players from getting hurt. What wouldn’t be a red card in other games is now a red card in this game because of the off field circumstances.
Yea, you’re wildly over complicating this. Every grown adult who speaks English knows the definition of those words.
If it’s really that difficult for referees to interpret those rules, then I guess we need to make sure every VAR crew includes a linguist, a physio, and a physicist to make sure they can correctly judge these types of incidents. Throw a mathematician in there as well for good measure, just to make sure someone knows how lines work.
They’d still probably be shit.
Nice bait Mr. Newcastle fan. Nice.
Bait for…?
Football is subjective it’s not about the rules it’s not black or white
So there’s nothing like re-writing the rules.nonsense
No need to rewrite the rules, just put an addendum to say that rules should be applied to all teams and players equally, regardless of their stature.
Should be same rules for all.
You say that but those same rules led to two blatant reds not being given in the same game
Most do not agree they should both be reds
Bruno is a clear red
Havertz was a dangerous tackle that really didn’t make contact. More room for interpretation here.
The PL officiating panel were unanimous in saying Havertz should have been sent off
He did make contact, with both his leading leg and then his trailing knee
you might wanna remove those oil smudges from your glasses bud, I think they’re clouding your vision a little
2 of that panel also thought the elbow to the back of the head was just fine.
It’s simple - red cards can be given for foul play after a game. Then have them not available for a number of games down to the severity of the incident.
Is this thread OPs attempt at reverse Karma farming?