Hello!
I’ve seen a few posts praising the US and I can’t deny that I’ve also had a very concrete goal of moving permanently to the US eventually. I’m from the EU so the “reality” that I have of the US comes mainly from the media. With this being said, I’d like the brutally honest opinions of those that experienced the US first-hand, whether you’re American, have always lived in the US and absolutely hate it, or if you moved from the EU to the US and are loving the experience.
- As expats, I think we’re all running from something from our home country (work conditions, family situations, etc). What made you move to/out of the US?
- Do you feel your QoL (quality of life) has improved with your move to/out of the US?
- If so, would you attribute this to working conditions/salary? Or living conditions such as more free time, good pension/retirement, etc
- Do you plan on going back to your home country? If so, what is the main driver of that decision?
Last, but not least, for those living in the US, do you believe that the pros of having more/better career opportunities (at least for skilled labor/PhD level) in the US outweigh the cons of living there, namely:
- poor/expensive healthcare
- extremely high tuition fees for colleges
- high crime rates (naturally highly dependent on the place you live)
- small amount of time for maternity leave (I don’t mind the small amount for paternity leave, but in Scandinavian countries mothers can have up to a year of maternity leave which I believe is very beneficial for the kids. I do value countries that value and protect the family structure)
- … and a general low work-life balance? (This last bullet point is not as important to me as I do like and appreciate the hustle culture of the US which makes effort/skills be more appreciated and compensated)
Thank you all! Apologies in advance if this has been asked multiple times before, but I’d like to condensate different perspectives in a single thread if possible as it might be helpful for others as well! :)
I know a number of people who moved here who are now WTF and are moving out.
The code of the American Dream is if you have enough money and/or credit, as well as the ability to fail upwards, to isolate you from the negatives. The issue now with the inflation and gouging hidden under inflation across the board is that you need a crazy amount of money to isolate you from the negatives. This includes daily expenses all the way to medical care, with and without insurance.
The work-life balance in the US has never been good compared to Europe. It was possible, IMO, years ago, but everything is upside down right now there. There was a point where the US was cheaper than Europe. Now Europe is cheaper than the US. How is it possible that daily life in the US is on par or more expensive than living in the most expensive cities in Europe (ie: Switzerland)? And you get nothing back for those prices unlike in Switzerland, Norway, Sweden, Germany, etc. It was shocking to me to see certain things in Iceland even cheaper than in the US.
There were previous threads where people expressed why it was so much better for them to bring their families to places like Austria- the kids can actually play, not worry about dying in a shooting, go into the forests and mountains alone and be safe, etc.
A few years ago, things were, IMO a bit better in the US, but Europe has made huge strides to the point that rationalizations to excuse the US don’t work anymore. Basically, the only reason you move to the US is if you’re a far-rightist, you have money, you’re a sovereign citizen, and you’re naive to the pitfalls of the US. In fact, I’m in various groups from diferent countries in Europe where the people are looking to move or have moved to the US. What’s the commonality? Overwhelmingly far-right politics and their top destinations are Texas, Florida, and other far-right states.
Hmm, with regard to inflation, the US is one of the countries that has suffered the least from inflation post-COVID. Europe has insanely inflated energy costs from the war in Ukraine. I live in Australia now, but the AUD is so weak right now compared to the USD and we also have much worse inflation.
Maybe. We don’t know, because the way the US comes up with methodologies for CPI is protected like Nuke secrets. They recently just changed it again so they can massive undercount it this year to take out lower inputs from 2021.
CPI in America is more a measure of that median urban wage workers are buying in America, not inflation. It’s designed to undershoot entitlement payments essentially so they take the purchasing power of our social security payments.
I just moved 6 months ago, so my understanding of the cost of things is pretty recent and inflation was higher then than it is now. Inflation is way worse in Australia, and I have spoken to colleagues in various European countries and Canada and they say the same.
“Anything I don’t like” is far-right energy right here 🤡
You’re creating a caricature of the US: yes, we do have some loud right wing gun nuts, but we also have millions more quietly hard-working professionals who wouldn’t feel out of place in any European city. US states on the coasts are more similar to Europe in many ways than they are to other US states in conservative areas like the deep south or the lower midwest. Suburbs and small towns in New England, New York and the Pacific NW have crime rates just as low or lower than Europe. America’s best public schools are also among the best in the world and feed into its private universities, which are also the most sought after in the world. It’s a huge country, not easy to characterize but very easy to misrepresent based on what’s trending on Tik Tok.
Moved for work.
Yes, massive improvement in QOL. Everything my home country offered and more.
No, not going back.
I don’t understand the last question. I have better healthcare in the US (yes it’s more expensive but I have great insurance). State university is high quality and affordable. Crime is not an issue. My company has better paid maternity leave than my home country did. Work life balance is great despite being paid more.
It’s all been upside for me.
What is your country of origin
May I ask where you came from that you have better maternity leave in the US?
Maternity leave in the U.S. depends on your work. Back in the U.S. I had 6 months fully paid leave (and so did fathers), which is a lot more than in the Netherlands where I live now.
Of course if your job doesn’t offer a good leave package you are out of luck. The issue with America is that it’s extremely unequal - poor folks live much much worse than poor folks in Europe. But middle class and richer folks often live better than rich folks in Europe. That’s why lots of highly skilled people still move to America from Europe, even though it’s a totally shitty country to live in if you’re uneducated or poor.
Just because it’s not federally mandated doesn’t mean there is no parental leave in the US. If OP works in corporate at a competitive company that wants to retain employees then maternity leave can be very adequate. Netflix corporate employees get up to a year for either parent.
Your questions are so prejudiced, so I would suggest you adjust your mindset before even considering moving.
You admitted that you have never lived in the US and the reality is all from the media. But you already assumed:
- “poor/expensive healthcare” if you live in a big city. It definitely isn’t poor. And if you have a good job it definitely isn’t expensive, giving you seem to live in Norway where taxes are eye watering. Also, different from Norway, there are a lot more people in the US, if you are unfortunate enough to have a rare illness chances are higher than someone in the US will have more expensive than a Norwegian doctor.
- “extremely high tuition”. It isn’t extremely high. The US college education system is messed up in its own way but to call everything extremely high is wrong. The sticker price isn’t at all real. On the top end, Ivy League colleges are all need blind. And there are many states state colleges that are fairly reasonable (eg university of California, CUNY, SUNY systems). Not to mention the earning potential is a lot higher in the US. The average graduate has more student debt in the UK than in the US, despite colleges being “cheaper” in the UK.
- “short maternity leave” just because the law doesn’t require maternity leave doesn’t mean mothers go back to work one week later. If you want Scandi style 1 or 2 years of leave, you won’t get it.
- what is low work life balance? To me living in a tiny country where you can never advance your career, being taxed to the tee, being prescribed one way of life, having to rely on the gov are all worse than working hard and making a shit ton of money and then spending it on things I want.
It seems from your question that you haven’t a European hoity-toity attitude about the US, even if you didn’t mean to come across as snobbish. If you want a European way of life, don’t go, because it isn’t and will never be Europe. But if you do want to go, you need to change your mindset and accept a different way of living. Higher risk, high reward.
I’m from the US and I very much like my home, so this isn’t a “diss the US” comment, and I agree with most of your points but tuition is indeed absurd compared to the majority of EU countries.
I live in Switzerland now and tuition here for ETHZ - top 10 worldwide ranked university is about $1500-$1800 per year. I did. my undergrad in the US through the UC system which is indeed super reasonable for in state residents but even in the early 2000s it was around $11k/year not counting all the overpriced textbooks. It’s not even close.
Assuming he is smart enough and works hard enough to qualify through the gymnasium system here, my kid will have the right to attend ETHZ or any of the other federal/local Unis at that same price point. And it doesn’t depend on the subjective charity evaluation of a third party entity.
I love the US and where I grew up and one day I might find myself back there, it had a lot of great features but this point is not one of them.
Just an aside—my daughter did her undergrad in the CSU system, and her grant money covered tuition, books, and gas for commuting. She lived at home.
It can be done here with little to no money or debt.
Anecdotally it’s possible to have a low cost college experience in the U.S. but from a data perspective it’s quantifiably more expensive here, extraordinarily so.
“extremely high tuition”. It isn’t extremely high. The US college education system is messed up in its own way but to call everything extremely high is wrong. The sticker price isn’t at all real. On the top end, Ivy League colleges are all need blind. And there are many states state colleges that are fairly reasonable (eg university of California, CUNY, SUNY systems). Not to mention the earning potential is a lot higher in the US. The average graduate has more student debt in the UK than in the US, despite colleges being “cheaper” in the UK.
“short maternity leave” just because the law doesn’t require maternity leave doesn’t mean mothers go back to work one week later. If you want Scandi style 1 or 2 years of leave, you won’t get it.
These two things are facts though. College is expensive, and our maternity leave is short. Period. It’s not an opinion. It’s data.
That is true but what I said is also true. Ivy is need blind, basically free if you can’t afford it. Many mothers have 6-12 months of mat leave if you have a good job. Not all, but many do.
My point being, in the US things can get extremely bad as well as extremely good. In Europe everything is run of the mill. So don’t move from Europe to the US if you aren’t prepared for low lows but high highs.
If you have a rare illness than it’s more likely that someone will know how to treat it in the US - sure, tell that to my partner that almost died and was medically induced into a coma after three separate visits to the ER sent him home because they had no idea what effects jardiance could have - told him his A1C was fine and sent him on his way when he was slurring words and could barely stand. They made me leave when I tried to advocate for him.
Tell that to my mother who died in her 40’s because they wouldn’t send an ambulance without her health insurance information (which, how could a kid calling 911 know this information?)
American healthcare is disgusting and sick and predatory. It’s the reason I couldn’t have the childhood my mother wanted for me. It’s the reason so many people are bankrupt. It’s going to be the death of all of us because they care more about lobby relationships to hawk medication that doctors aren’t even well-versed on. It’s deplorable.
The thing about the US that I find a lot of people gloss over/don’t realize is the sheer amount of choice available here. It’s insanely attractive when moving from Europe. The EU has choice but it’s across different countries which has logistical issues. The US, for better or worse, is 50 countries in 1 (51 countries including Puerto Rico) and somewhere like California is itself a whole world unto itself.
I am child free so that has a big impact on my perspective. I am also middle class. But I love the freedom I have here to carve out a life more to my liking and if in 5 years I want to try out a different kind of life I can do that too. As for healthcare, I have received better care here than I ever did in Ireland where I am from. I have good health insurance from my job (always have even when my jobs weren’t the best) but I have paid out of pocket for some of my care so I could get the choice I wanted: that wouldn’t even have been an option for me at home. But there’s no glossing over how sadistic it is to have so many people be able to be bankrupted by medical bills. That is a hard pill to swallow, so to speak.
It IS harder to get ahead here than it was. I earn a salary I never dreamed possible and it’s kind of scary how far it DOESN’T get you. But the middle classes are getting squeezed in most western countries so this is not totally unique. It is easy to get caught up in the consumerist culture here too - to be honest, I could probably cut back and I’d see that my salary is plenty.
Finally, I never had work life balance in Ireland so I think it’s a me problem. I have plenty of friends here who do have it but I think you have to make more of a concerted effort.
Oh and I will not return to Europe while I’m of working age. I do hope to be able to split my time between here and there when I retire though because I feel lucky to have access to both places and it’d be ridiculous not to make the most of it.
Yup. It’s been better in the past, but the US is still one of the best places to try to make your bones in the western world.
Its rougher to be poor here for sure, but you’d be hard pressed to find a better place to be upper middle class and above in the western world - and even though it’s still inaccessible for a lot of people, it’s still more accessible than in other developed countries. The healthcare here is whack, but if you can get insurance - it’s likely to be at least on par with elsewhere.
If you’re willing to become a doctor, lawyer, programmer, or general professional here - you’re gonna make more than your home country no doubt. But don’t come here as a line worker thinking it’ll be better.
I lived in New Zealand for a while, and love it much more than the US. But there is no doubt materially I am more well off in the US. As middle manager in the US I make more than my old CFO back in NZ, all adjusted for inflation/ppp
lifestyle and environment can be more important than income
You are technically correct, but the reality is that money can get you the lifestyle and environment you want. It’s better to be rich in the US than to be poor or lower middle class in Europe
no, that’s just wishful thinking. being rich in the US can simulate a middle-class european lifestyle, but it would still lack in the actual environment sector unless you paid most of your income on rent to live in a walkable city that invested in transit and aesthetics instead of strip malls and sprawl.
For sure. That’s why I like New Zealand much more. But given I am here for family at the moment, those are the few positives and appeals to a lot of people. I know kiwis who left and won’t ever go back because they can work and make money they couldn’t imagine in NZ.
Interesting analysis looking at the best return on investment of American Higher Ed.
US expat living in Japan here. I watch TV or movies and the US looks amazing. Then I remember back to how, with all that money I made, I needed alot to keep what I bought since there’s alot of scum that only gets nice things by taking it from others. LA looks amazing in old movies and TV, but I know the reality
Yes, pros outweigh cons for most.
I’m struggling with this too, as an American planning to move to EU in a few years. A lot of things are great, yes. But (1) I’m terrified to grow old in the US, as there are no social supports. I’ve heard of elder care facilities that cost $30,000 a month and still suck. (2) car culture. It’s truly awful. Traffic everywhere, all the time, and parking. It’s enough to keep me from getting out of the house as much as I should. (3) Architectural monotony. Yes, I know the US is large and diverse, but the big-box landscape is depressing. I can feel my brain decaying. I can spend thousands to go on vacation in another region, but the buildings and restaurant options will be largely the same. Ugghh.
Unpopular opinion, perhaps, but I view the car culture as a pro. I can go wherever I want, whenever I want. Parking is basically never a problem except in places like NYC, and even there it’s available, you just pay through the nose for it. You can spend a lifetime road tripping in the US and there will still be more to see.
In terms of personal freedom, few things have had as much of an impact on my life as getting my driver license.
Absolutely. I never really understood what “road trip” meant until I moved to the US. I can drive for twenty-odd hours and still be in the states. If I win the lottery, I’m definitely getting a Winnebago and doing every state.
I think the concept is cool but I’m an American that cannot drive, and last time I visited my family in the US I felt so trapped having to rely on someone else to pick me up/take me somewhere. I loved family road trips (aside from car sickness and the fuel smell at gas stations), but train and bus trips work even better for me. I particularly love having stations and reliable transport even within a 20 minute walk in Japan. It’s nice not needing to worry about insurance or even accidents too much, though my husband wants to get a car at some point.
But my younger sister likes driving and I do get it-- the mobility and freedom was nice especially in our spread-out hometown and her college town. (Though I’m pretty sure she too mostly just uses public transport and bikes in the NL now.)
There’s nothing wrong with public transit as an option, I just value car culture. For that matter, I used to be a bus driver.
But buses and cars use much the same infrastructure, and contrary to the popular dichotomy of thinking you have to choose one over the other, it’s actually possible to have both. (On a more general note, I wish society could get off the “if you’re not with us, you’re against us” train and focus more on coexistence, collaboration and compromise. But that’s a bigger can of worms.)
Where in the US do you live? The northeastern cities are better at being less car dependent than a place like southern California or Texas
PhD who lives in the US here, and is desperate to get out—
The cons do not outweigh the benefits, if coming from Europe.
Not even close.
And no, I don’t think anywhere is a utopia so I don’t think Europe is some perfect place.
To address your concerns:
We don’t have a -short- amount of maternity leave here. We have -no- maternity leave here (as a country). You are considered lucky if you have a job that pays that as a benefit and even if so, I think it’s usually through disability and at a paycheck reduction. Some states may vary here. I’ve never had to use it personally but that was how it was explained in company benefits to me.
We don’t have high -crime rates- in the way you might be thinking. I don’t necessarily walk around feeling like I’m gonna be robbed or something like that, and I live in one of the biggest cities here. We have a very specific, unique problem of gun violence. So I am afraid that I will be shot going to the movies, bowling alleys, concerts, and public events. I also don’t know how parents and kids are coping with all the school shootings we have here. And it’s not gangs: it’s political. Crime rate” doesn’t really capture that.
Our health care is, I think, fine…if you have a PhD and work for a university or company then you’ll probably have decent insurance. The problem is health insurance. But if you ever need to use it for anything serious you still risk going into massive medical debt. Insurance here is also unique and they find lovely ways to choose parts of your medical care as exempt from coverage. My favorite was when I needed surgery and insurance didn’t cover the use of the surgical room. We had to pay the full cost and it didn’t even count towards my deductible. How nice! But the surgery went well.
And even with a good employer plan, one of my prescriptions was $350. For eye drops. And we have long wait times for specialists. It’s a really messed up system.
It’s so annoying that people hyper focus on high taxes of other countries. You get something for that. Taxes here aren’t that low and just trying to live a basic existence here puts you in debt.
The cost of school, health insurance, housing, and transportation, and food (which is really expensive here) add up.
Speaking of transportation, You will need to own a car. Even cities are car centric here. Maybe if you live in New York City, you won’t? That’s probably it. Our cars here are gigantic monstrosities, no real small cars here anymore. $20k seems like the new minimum for a decent used car these days.
Hmmm let’s see what else…
If you want to live anywhere decent, we have an affordable housing crisis here. There is also limited inventory in nice places to live.
Climate change has made living in many parts of the country miserable- either on hire, flooding, or too hot.
Public transportation is okay in a few cities, but only in small sections within a city. Our interstate train travel is a joke. If that’s something you’ve enjoyed in Europe you will be so, disappointed.
Ah! And in Europe you have consumer protections that you’ve likely gotten used to. Here, companies don’t have to offer warranties, refunds, or guarantee their products at all.
Do yourself a favor and look elsewhere.
Climate change affects europe too and they don’t have AC in most places … i don’t know how they are handling it! This is one of my bigger concerns about Europe - I hate heat.
Climate change affects europe too and they don’t have AC in most places … i don’t know how they are handling it!
I’m moving back to the EU after about 25 years in the US.
It’s true that you can make a lot more money here as a skilled person. If you’re a woman in the sciences, there are actually jobs here.
The question is: what are you used to? Do you live in a sad small Northern village that used to have a mine and now all the jobs are gone? In that case, any college town in the US would be a delight to you.
Are you an established academic living in a vibration city with all the trappings of nice European life? Then all US cities will stress you out and depress you (yes, even NYC).
I would take a look at your day-to-day to see what you take for granted and if it’s gone, how much will you miss it?
In my opinion no. I was constantly worried about violent crime and active shooters, the cost of childcare, private school university, home prices, healthcare, and nursing homes.
I worked too much and there was never enough money.
I simply do not need to worry about any of it since moving to the EU.
I’m American, and have been living in Europe. I’ll be going back soon. The main things I missed about the US were the friendliness of the people, the low smoking rate, and the natural spaces/national parks
I’m Canadian, but I’ve lived in the EU and US.
There’s something about the US that is just exciting. You don’t get the same sort of social atmosphere even in Vancouver or Berlin.
Americans are relatively open and active, whereas in much of Europe socializing can either be very formal or difficult for outsiders. When I was in Germany, all my friends were international researchers. In Italy (now) I just don’t have any friends. Whereas in the US, friends of friends will e-mail me out of the blue and ask to go for lunch.
The smoking in EU really kills the atmosphere too. Here in Italy we have all these narrow medieval streets and inevitably someone ahead of you is smoking and you can’t avoid inhaling the smoke.
US healthcare itself (quality of medicine) is actually decent, but you have to be very proactive - aggressive even- in advocating for yourself and navigating it.
If you are a female or a POC, you could get treated like your symptoms are imaginary- this is a very real problem. Of course it shouldn’t happen- but in the US we can choose the doctors we want (within your insurance network/plan). Research and self-advocacy is key.
For the most part our doctors and definitely the nurses are decent people who care about patient outcomes.
The negative aspect of our healthcare is based around the systemic aspects - the absolute clusterfuck of health insurance; and unfortunately the people on medicaid and the unhoused who cannot afford insurance use healthcare facilities in a way that drive up medical and insurance costs for everyone else (example- going to the emergency room for a stomach ache or eye infection that’s lasted 3 days).
Because health insurance is unaffordable for these folks in the first place - they manage their medical concerns in a way that is reactive instead of proactive - it is their only choice esp. in areas without low-cost clinics.
So they can’t even get an appointment with a regular doctor as they don’t have insurance- this resorting to only going to the emergency room if something gets bad enough. It’s a vicious downward spiral that costs more and more each year.
Us healthcare system is a disorganized hot mess and an embarrassment - but 90% of the clinicians you interact with are kind people with good hearts who want to heal. Just want to make the clarification as I feel like the view of the actual clinicians gets unfairly wrapped into the perspective of the messed up administration when viewed from outside of the US.
I think the thing that sucks about the US is your health insurance is tied very much to your employment. And you need insurance no matter what your health situation is because the risk of having to pay out of pocket for something can be immense.
You can have excellent healthcare plan in the US if you work a skilled career full time for a mega corporation. But it can be difficult to navigate otherwise. Those who are self-employed, retired early, or in any situation outside of a normal W2 FT job have to get creative to have access to decent insurance.
your health insurance is tied very much to your employment.
For nearly half of Americans on Medicaid and Medicare, it isn’t,
That doesn’t really apply for a foreigner looking to immigrate. But its still worth noting that there is a lot of government involvement in health insurance.
There is but you have to qualify for those. Medicaid is not that great from what I’ve seen and many doctors don’t want to take it. Medicare is very decent insurance but only generally available to those 65+, along with some other exceptions of course.
I have a friend on Medicaid and she says it is fantastic.
I was on Medicaid for a year and it was fabulous. I could have afforded to pay copays, and should have been charged.
Yep, I’m an independent contractor, mostly healthy in my 30s and pay $750 month for my plan, which doesn’t include my $90 a month inhaler. But I chose it because in the event there is a major issue, I won’t get screwed by massive unexpected expenses (lower out of pocket max; and really good coverage out of network). It’s not an ideal situation .
Just a point of view here, I have a lot of family who has been or are in madicaid and they actually love it. When my brother got brain cancer in his late 20s and got dx the day before his first kid was born, he was taken to MD Anderson for treatment (the best cancer care on planet earth) where they performed two surgeries and follow on radiation. He is totally fine now and cost was absolutely minimal to non existent. Same with their pcp. They actually see their pcp quite regularly.
The people who get screwed are people working for tiny companies who can’t afford good healthcare but don’t qualify for Medicaid or self employed. As a reference my employer pays around $30k a year for my health insurance so it’s hard for small companies to afford it.
Italian living in the US here, small town far from the large cities, on an average salary. Not worth it. Quality of life was way higher back home, everyone is out there for a slice of your money and working here is a constant state of fear of losing the job, health care and housing. Stress levels are incredible for absolutely no reason. As a tourist it’s great though.
Thank you for sharing your experience! It would be helpful for people to know (roughly) where you are in the US so that they can have a better developed idea of things instead of viewing the county as a monolith. 🙂
To be generic I can say the inner part of the Carolinas.
Also- if you value countries that value and protect the family structure- you might be at a cultural disconnect here, beside from the parental leave. Most babies in america today are born to single /unmarried women. The cohesive family unit is rapidly becoming rare. Just something to be aware of- if it bothers you seeing single/unwed mothers- this is not the country for you.
Untrue. Forty percent of babies in the US are born to single mothers… Here are the top ten countries for unwed mothers.
Chile: 75.1% 🇨🇱
Costa Rica: 72.5% 🇨🇷
Mexico: 70.4% 🇲🇽
Iceland: 69.4% 🇮🇸
France: 62.2% 🇫🇷
Bulgaria: 59.6% 🇧🇬
Norway: 58.5% 🇳🇴
Portugal: 57.9% 🇵🇹
Slovenia: 56.5% 🇸🇮
Sweden: 55.2% 🇸🇪The US ranks number 23, after most European nations, including the UK, Netherlands, Belgium, Finland, Austria, Denmark, Slovenia, Czech Republic, Spain, and Luxembourg, https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/out-of-wedlock-births-by-country