I love how all the comments insist on discussing the difficulty, despite OP literally pointing it out as bait.
That’s good bait.
I know it’s bait. I’m just looking for an opportunity to unload.
The circle of “just want to feel something” wraps round and round.
As a man who has never played Elden Ring and really knows nothing about it beyond it being the name of a game, the people getting all het up in these comments are very amusing. I think you guys proved her point.
I say stupid shit on purpose all the time but I don’t pretend it’s anything but.
As evidenced by this comment, but I fail to see the relevance to the op
OP is about disparaging a passionate community that likes the experience they’ve gathered around and doesn’t want it to change. Asking these people to change without a good reason is stupid. Claiming it isn’t stupid makes it even worse.
As evidenced by this comment
Did you at least give me a tip of the fedora while hitting me with that sick Reddit burn?
I’m vegan btw
I use Arch
I have no idea what it is, please enlighten me in depth! Preferably in a closed setting where any bystanders cannot leave .
I will also need an explanation why Windows is bad and why I should care about online privacy.
I’ve heard that hackers use Linux, will that make my printer be susceptible to hack so China or CIA can see my bills that I print out every month?
I have nothing against prosthetizing vegans, because vegans make me think of food and I’m always hungry
Ok :)
Can I have an easy mode for veganism where I can still eat some forms of meat?
Absolutely not
(Tbh, I think any reduction in meat consumption is good. You don’t have to be a purist to make a positive impact and if people really cared about animals they would ostracize others for not being vegan 100% of the time)
If you care about animal suffering, remember not all animals are the same, there is a continuous line of intelligence between some grass and a dolphin, you have to decide at what point you value. Pig? Chicken? Egg? Insect? Salmon? Sardine? Fungus? Starfish?
From my understanding, cutting out most mammals from your diet would cut out most of the more intelligent animals you eat. (Unless you eat crows or octopus)
I was being facetious. I don’t care about animal suffering.
Going whole foods plant-based is better for your health reducing the risk of chronic disease.
that paper is expired
Lol fair
All difficult games should have an easy mode for accessibility.
Signed, a Dark Souls enjoyer.
Honestly… I disagree. What is accessibility? Every souls game has been beaten with dance pads, rock band drum kits and guitars. They’re also frequently beaten by people with serious disabilities using specialized controllers. Input speed is not an issue here, Souls has always been about carefully choosing your moves to manage the end lag and stamina cost of your actions. It’s about making the right move, not about moving quickly or pressing a lot of buttons at once.
IMHO, accessibility is frequently cited as an excuse for lower difficulties here, when in reality the difficulty isn’t a serious part of the barrier for disabled players. It could use better accessibility options, like configurable colourblind modes, audio indicators, more configurable text size, some kind of clear colour indicators on attacks for low vision, but difficulty? No.
There are also lots of good reasons not to add explicit difficulty options, which is y’know, why From Soft haven’t done it yet.
Accessibility isn’t just a case of ‘accessible to the handicapped’, man.
That’s a fair argument then, but… this is literally what accessibility means, whether or not you can “access” the thing.
If someone isn’t willing to invest the time or frustration into Souls, then fair enough, but that’s a matter of priorities/convenience, not a matter of accessibility.
Also, frankly, the difficulty of Souls for regular people is insanely overblown. Stuff like “Prepare to Die” is just a marketing gimmick, and the games have become substantially easier and more flexible over time. Like in Elden Ring, where you can leave bosses for later, and can frequently just bypass them entirely, experiment with an insane variety of builds, use effective ways to grind ridiculous amounts of souls, and just generally become ridiculously powerful. They’ve done essentially everything but creating an explicit “easy mode” to make the game playable for as many people as possible. If you want an easy mode, basically every souls game has builds or guides that function as that easy mode.
Accessibility also includes time constraints. You say yourself, it took you hours to get to a point where you could get through the game, let alone the hours it takes to just pass through the game with that aside. I personally missed out on a lot of Fromsoft’s stuff because, at the time, I was working 70+ hours a week, with 3 hours of commuting. I would have loved to spent some of the little free time I had putzing around in those games, an experience their art. However, I never had the time to spend double digit hours honing skills, just to get through the game in a reasonable time frame. Sure, now that I don’t work like that, I prefer games with high difficulty, doesn’t mean that when I play those games, now that I have time, I still don’t wish I had that access back then. If you can access a broader audience by offering a selected difficulty, why not? Many games with the highest skill ceilings have, traditionally, had difficulty modes, no on talks shit on all the boomer shooters for having easy/hard/harder/nightmare modes.
Mmm, I feel like under heavy time constraints like that, there are worse barriers than difficulty to a game’s experience. For example, it’s hard to appreciate a narrative and big reveals when you’re spreading your play out so much that it’s hard to remember who characters are. It’s also hard to enjoy exploring a large space, and feeling like you’ve covered it well.
Elden Ring, for example, is a massive game. I soared through Elden Ring, as I played the whole franchise (besides what’s locked to PlayStation) first, and happened to stumble into an extremely powerful build. The game still took me 140 hours, including the DLC.
I also still don’t think it’s an accessibility constraint. I’d totally understand why you don’t want to commit to a 150hr experience when you’re playing less than 3hrs a week, you’d be stuck on it for a whole year. But learning over time in little pieces is totally viable. Stuff like muscle memory and skill sticks with you, I could put down Souls for the next few years and when I came back I’d still be much better at it than when I first sat down.
Also, I actually find small time slots one of the best ways to conquer a tough challenge. When I get hard stuck, like I did on the final boss of the ER DLC, I chose to play like, 20 minutes of attempts a night, and then go to bed and sleep on it. We know from academia that studying something right before you sleep helps, since your brain can lock that fresh experience into memory better. You’re also starting each attempt “fresh”, in that you aren’t already frustrated and annoyed by the boss. And this worked great, it took a boss that I couldn’t beat with a whole free evening, and I beat it after only a few days. It’s a technique I’ve used repeatedly.
All that to say, I don’t think difficulty is the best reason to not play a Souls game while working 70+ hour weeks. And I don’t think it’s exclusive to Souls, I’d also avoid story-heavy JRPGs, and massive open worlds in general. Not that you couldn’t sacrifice the time to play any of those things, but frankly, I’d recommend a game that’s better consumed in bits and pieces, such as GotY nominee Balatro, a competitive multiplayer game with constrained matches, or a roguelike experience such as Hades. And that’s not that odd, I also wouldn’t recommend reading an epic novel like Dune, or trying to binge Game of Thrones or something.
My honest take on your story, is that I’m really glad Souls didn’t have an easy mode for you at that time. As you say, you prefer games with high difficulty now. I would hate for you to have played a compromised version of what From Software carefully designed here, when the intended experience ultimately really worked for you. It’s the same reason I avoid trailers for games I know I want to play, that is, if you would’ve even came back to replay a game you’d already “beaten”.
In other comments, I’ve already talked about my friend who only played games on easy before playing Souls, which made him realize how much he enjoyed hard games and the rest of beating a tough challenge. He fell in love with the experience From Software set out to make. If DS1 had had an easy mode at that time, I’m not sure he would’ve ever learned that about himself, because he would’ve played it on easy. He might’ve enjoyed the art, and the visual design of the creatures, but it’s only because From Software had the confidence to assert their intended vision that it’s his favourite game and franchise ever made.
Your first point about spreading out the narrative in such a way… that is how most media worked until very recently. I grew up waiting upwards of months for the next installment, if those are large installments, years. Also, Elden ring came out after I stopped working those hours, I am mostly having this experience, in terms of Fromsoft games, with Demon’s Souls - Sekiro, but that doesn’t change the argument, just putting up my time frame.
I am more likely to not retain the patterns of attack, etc., when I have to break it up, in such a fashion, unlike the experience of seeing the new things, and partaking in the world, and its lore.
The reason I was unable to get through the souls games was that I had time to learn things like the attack patterns of the monsters, or time to experience the world and its lore in a way the memorization part was getting in the way of. When I learned something, and returned to it weeks later, I had to relearn a lot of the rote aspects of the game play. This blocks access to me experiencing the art, and lore, which is more important to me, in such games, than the mechanics of it. So, yes, I lost access.
Having now played the games, I do not wish it had this barrier back then, as I still would have preferred to experienced and easier version, so that I could participate in the larger zeitgeist, of the pop culture of the time, and then got to enjoy it how it is, now that I have time. Let me repeat that, I would have preferred to have had an easy mode, back when it was new, to experience my preferred part, when it was most culturally relevant. Now that I have played them, I STILL would have preferred that, even if I never got to experience it otherwise.
You are basically telling me how YOU would prefer to do something, and you are glad I had to conform to YOUR preferences. Meanwhile, having the option for and easier mode, would not have changed YOUR experience at all, unless YOU choose to. While my suggestion would not have affected your experience, it would have allowed me to have experienced the games when they was at their relevance peak. Meanwhile, what you ask for affects me in a negative way. To say that an option for an easy mode, on the screen, when you start, that you do not have to select, would damage your experience, is wild. That is very, very, weird. You are adamant the idea that someone could have a variant in preferences, that affect you in no way, would damage your experience because what? Because you had to see the option on the screen? Because people you deem lesser gamers would have played it? Is this some weird ideological axiom? Because people are simply doing something different than you? What is it that bothers you so much about other people having a different choice, you don’t need to make, or experience?
Ok, hang on. I replied to this initially while annoyed, and blew past some of the key points. But I do actually want to talk about the whole “participating in the zeitgeist” thing.
A large part of the reasons Dark Souls doesn’t have difficulties is to create that social element. Gonna stick with Elden Ring for my examples here, because I missed most of the online discussion around Sekiro. But from what I saw, the majority of the discussion online was about how hard certain bosses were, shared experiences like getting your ass kicked by Tree Sentinel, or Margit “putting your foolish ambitions to rest”. If Elden Ring really did have an easy mode, that was easy enough for someone to beat the game without “learning the attack patterns of the monsters”, and to keep up with the diehard playerbase while working 70+ hour work weeks, would they really have felt included in those conversations? Would they have been able to share the excitement at beating a boss that they struggled with for hours, without actually struggling for that time? There’s an intentional design decision here. To quote Miyazaki from when Sekiro released:
We want everyone to feel that sense of accomplishment. We want everyone to feel elated and to join that discussion on the same level. We feel if there’s different difficulties, that’s going to segment and fragment the user base. People will have different experiences based on that [differing difficulty level]. This is something we take to heart when we design games. It’s been the same way for previous titles and it’s very much the same with Sekiro.
If all you really wanted was to just… experience the art and story, and see the cool enemy designs, you could always watch a youtube let’s play or something as well. The ultimate easy mode, with a defined length of how long it will take. But if you wanted to commiserate about tough challenges and the experience you went through, then you kinda need to actually have that experience.
I’ll also add, that stuff doesn’t go away. I was excited by the hype around Elden Ring too. It’s what pushed me to start Dark Souls 1, and then play 2, 3, Sekiro, and finally Elden Ring. I missed the initial hype around all of those games, but that cultural stuff is still there. I built up a youtube playlist while playing each game and once I finished them I would catch up on Illusory Wall, Zullie the Witch, Vaati, and challenge runs and Lockout Bingos from the likes of Lil’ Aggy or Ymfah. My friends were also excited to see me play the games. I may not have experienced the Anor Londo archers until years after they did, but it was still fun to talk to them about it, and they were excited to reminisce and replay the game alongside me.
I eventually did get to participate in the fun that was Shadow of the Erdtree releasing soon after I beat Elden Ring. And that was great, and special. It was fun to see that final boss get nerfed soon after I beat it, for example. I do feel sorry that you missed the moment of Sekiro releasing. But ultimately I don’t think your anecdotal experience is more important than say, my friend who always picked easy and didn’t realize how much he loved a tough challenge. Or any of the “Dark Souls saved my life” people, who might’ve picked easy if it was offered and not had that experience. Or the designers at From Software who worked hard to create something special and have the right to not offer a way to half-ass it and “fragment the user base”.
Well alright, I’m choosing to disregard the fact that this is 90% insults and calling me a weirdo freak. Thanks for that, btw, I’ve put a lot of effort into expressing myself clearly across a lot of different comments here.
In the latter half of this comment, I articulated why I feel an easy mode actually does make playing the game worse, even if you don’t select it. I also articulated why a simple scaling difficulty wouldn’t really work.
And in the latter half of this comment (start at “But I also think games are art”), I expressed why I think an Easy mode hasn’t been added, and wouldn’t be the same experience.
To add to that final point, the reason I don’t want others to play an easy mode isn’t because I’m a loser and beating Souls is the only way I know I’m a real man. I just think Souls is an amazing and unique offering, and it would be a real shame for someone to play the game on easy (which would “break the game itself” in Miyazaki’s words) and think that’s all there was.
I want more people to give it a try and experience it, and hopefully love it, not less. But just like it’s frustrating to watch a movie you love with someone who’s on their phone the whole time, it would be frustrating to see a ton of people play a kneecapped version of one of my favourite things and end up not “getting it”. And it would be more of a loss for them than me. It’s just the same Miyazaki quote over again, both me and him love what has been made here, and want more people to experience it, but not at the expense of compromising it. To paraphrase the end of his quote, would we even be talking about it if From Soft hadn’t had the confidence to stick to their intended vision?
“If we really wanted the whole world to play the game, we could just crank the difficulty down more and more. But that wasn’t the right approach,” he said.
“Had we taken that approach, I don’t think the game would have done what it did, because the sense of achievement that players gain from overcoming these hurdles is such a fundamental part of the experience. Turning down difficulty would strip the game of that joy - which, in my eyes, would break the game itself.”
Difficulty counts as an access barrier. You always have to consider that there are people who, for whatever reason, have a skill capacity that is lower than required for the game in question. And for those people the game will be inaccessible.
Time is also an accessibility factor. If a person with a disability or lower skill has to grind and extend the playtime for 3-4x what a normal player would have, that’s not inaccessible but it’s less accessible comparatively. Especially if that kills the fun.
That being said obviously these things can be tweaked within reason and the problem can’t be solved for every player unfortunately. And they don’t need to be. Some games can just be too hard for some players.
The ultimate point for me just seems to be that the community needs to be listened to. You shouldn’t ever be in the positions as a dev where you are telling disabled or low skill gamers to get good or no dice. If a large portion of people are saying “I’d love to enjoy the art you’ve made, but I can’t. My disability/inability is stopping me” then I’d change my approach.
I think there is a balance that can be struck, grinding is one of the balances and you’re right there are ways to make those games easier that way. But the other people are also right, the games need to be hard sometimes. I just want people to stop being dismissive of people who want to enjoy the same entertainment and art but can’t just because of difficulty.
Apologies in advance for the essay lol, Souls is one of my favourite franchises, and I’ve spent a lot of time thinking and talking about these games.
You always have to consider that there are people who, for whatever reason, have a skill capacity that is lower than required for the game in question.
I don’t think Souls requires any amount of skill beyond just… basic understanding of how to control a 3D character. They even tutorialize that, actually. Everyone starts somewhere, I personally got thrashed immediately after the tutorial in Dark Souls 1, and it took me hours to beat the first proper boss, with many deaths to regular enemies. Like any good video game, Souls teaches you the skills you need progressively, and gets gradually harder and asks more of the player over time. It’s not like just starting Guitar Hero on the highest difficulty, the game is balanced for anyone.
Time is also an accessibility factor.
I don’t actually think these games require an excessive time investment. Howlongtobeat puts Dark Souls Remastered’s Main Story at 30 hours. Even if you’re somehow spending 4x that time, that still only puts it at 120 hours, which isn’t unreasonable, lots of games have runtimes around that length.
I also take issue with the idea that you can consistently take 3-4x longer than most. In reality, you only get seriously walled a handful of times learning the game, and surpassing those tough challenges teaches you how to play. For example, in Sekiro, I got walled for hours on one of the games earliest minibosses, but once I got a solid enough grasp on the game to beat him, I wasn’t seriously walled like that again for several hours of gameplay. Getting stuck just means there are lessons you’re learning, and you tend to remember what you struggled hard to learn.
The ultimate point for me just seems to be that the community needs to be listened to.
A key part of developing anything for millions of people is that you have to learn what feedback to take and how to implement it properly. From Soft absolutely has listened to their community. First of all, there’s a vocal community that doesn’t want difficulties, which is what this whole post is joking about. I’d argue From Soft have done a phenomenal job of listening to their audience, and catering to the niche of people that want a tough, unyielding experience is how they’ve slowly built themselves into the multi-GotY juggernaut they are now.
But second of all, they’ve put a ton of effort into introducing ways to make the game easier. In Sekiro, if you’re hard stuck on a boss, tough luck, that game is mostly linear, and has key story moments that leave you no alternatives but to “git gud”. In Elden Ring, you can go elsewhere to learn the game more against a different boss, level up, and come back. In most cases, you don’t even need to come back. You can also explore different builds, respec your character, try a different weapon or spell or summon, summon a friend in multiplayer, go find more equipment, anything.
And personally, I really preferred Sekiro, it’s my favourite game they’ve ever made. I got stuck for hours on every key boss, and that game absolutely wiped the floor with me. It has barely any buildcraft, you truly do just have to “git gud”. And the purity of that experience really speaks to me and what I want out of a game. There’s no “questioning if I’m doing it wrong”, I just need to get in there and learn the required skills head on.
Ultimately, I’m really just tired of being villainized (not that your comment is doing that, to be clear) for wanting some games to pursue a single well-crafted and balanced hard experience that challenges me to push myself, when basically everything else on the market is pursuing the widest audience possible, with aggressive hints telling you how to do puzzles before you can even think, and several difficulty options that make things incredibly easy, at the cost of the harder difficulties usually being poorly balanced and uneven. I’m not going around saying every Mario game needs to be a Kaizo, with no way to tone it down, but it feels like many are coming to my favourite games and telling me they’re bad for being what I love.
Especially when I feel like From Soft is hitting that balance you’re talking about, and giving the player lots of options, but some people will seemingly just never be satisfied until they can choose “Easy” from the start screen. I don’t feel like me or From Soft is being dismissive when there are an abundance of accommodations and options to make things easier, you just need to actually engage with the game to use them.
I don’t think Souls requires any amount of skill beyond just… basic understanding of how to control a 3D character.
That’s obviously not true. Try playing an FPS with a mouse and keyboard vs controller and you’ll see understanding how to do something theoretically is less than half the battle. Say someone is missing arms so plays with their feet, it is far far more difficult to get a higher level of precision, and some people just won’t be able to no matter the amount of practice. People have a peak of reaction time no matter the amount of practice, and its different for different people. People have a peak of ability to move with precision no matter the amount of practice(see dyspraxia). People have shakes that cannot be controlled no matter the amount of practice.
I also take issue with the idea that you can consistently take 3-4x longer than most. In reality, you only get seriously walled a handful of times learning the game, and surpassing those tough challenges teaches you how to play. For example, in Sekiro, I got walled for hours on one of the games earliest minibosses, but once I got a solid enough grasp on the game to beat him, I wasn’t seriously walled like that again for several hours of gameplay. Getting stuck just means there are lessons you’re learning, and you tend to remember what you struggled hard to learn.
Ignoring that that experience just isn’t fun for a lot of people, you’re using your own experience of your own ability.
Ultimately, I’m really just tired of being villainized (not that your comment is doing that, to be clear) for wanting some games to pursue a single well-crafted and balanced hard experience that challenges me to push myself,
… It doesn’t detract from your experience at all to add an optional mode for quick save or other similar features.
Accessibility is literally how this thread started. I also disagree that the game requires a high degree of precision. Dark Souls originally came out with only 8-directional rolling, which you could do on a D-Pad, Fight Stick, or any other accessible controller. There’s no FPS-style aiming or anything, and again, you can find challenge runs of people beating the game while wearing oven mitts and other such shenanigans. The series main difficulty is in making the right decisions with the committed attack animations, end lag, and stagger mechanics, not quick reactions or precise inputs, although I’ll absolutely grant that the combat has become faster over time. Not that you can’t conquer the game with good buildcraft anyway, check out an “all hit run” for ways to beat Elden Ring while literally not dodging any attacks.
Ignoring that that experience just isn’t fun for a lot of people, you’re using your own experience of your own ability.
Sure, but skills and muscle memory are skills and muscle memory. Unless you’re referring to learning disabilities, people improve at things with practice, and time spent practicing the combat will make you better at the combat.
… It doesn’t detract from your experience at all to add an optional mode for quick save or other similar features.
I’ve also replied to that in this thread. But I’ll also add that something like a quick save is very different from adding a new scaled difficulty option, and Souls already implements a wealth of options to make the game easier. Adding another option in that same vein is a separate conversation from adding an Easy Mode.
P.S. I don’t mean to be snarky by linking my own comments. It’s understandable that you wouldn’t constantly be re-reading every comment I’ve made on this thread before replying, but I am getting a bit fatigued after debating this all day with Lemmy, and don’t feel a need to re-hash the same arguments here.
I wanna play a game with story interspersed with fun action combat… not keen on dying a million tonnes until I learn the timings for each enemy in order to be able to defeat them and get the next bit of story. Soulslike games aren’t accessible to me.
I mean, Souls is accessible to you, it sounds like it just isn’t for you. There are tons of games that I wish were made in a way that I’d enjoy more, features I’ve disliked, etc. But in almost all of those cases, someone loves those features the way they are, as is.
Like, for example, I don’t love JRPG combat. I would love to play and enjoy Persona 5, but eh, I’m just not interested in investing in those systems to play that game. But that game is beloved, as is. I would never go petition Atlus to make Persona 6 into a Soulslike so that I “could” play it.
And that’s great, there are a ridiculous amount of great games coming out every year, far more than I or basically anyone but full-time streamers have the time to play. So just… go play what you like?
Trying to make games that are “for” everyone is how we end up with soulless bland titles like Ubisoft keeps pumping out. Good games have to take risks, and make interesting decisions that alienate some and engage others.
Exactly!!!
Not every game is made for you!
Don’t like the gameplay or the challenge, you are welcome to switch to something else.
Why do people expect everything to cater to their preferences?
I enjoy souls games and I’m okay with their difficulty but I honestly don’t get how the possibility of an easy mode upsets so many people. It doesn’t require much development time, if any, to scale down enemies.
This isn’t like implementing something that doesn’t exist or that fundamentally changes the gameplay. Scaling already exists.
It has literally 0 impact on your experience and would allow others to enjoy the game as much as you do.
This isn’t like implementing something that doesn’t exist or that fundamentally changes the gameplay. Scaling already exists.
Scaling sounds like it’d work, but in actuality, these games are designed with tough mechanics that you really have to learn before they make things more difficult. Take Sekiro for example. The endgame bosses will absolutely bully you. I’m not sure even 10x damage and health would help you get past the final boss if you don’t know what you’re doing.
While playing through the game, I got stopped in my tracks several times, stuck on a boss for hours while I learned how to parry, manage my stamina, deal with perilous attacks, etc. If I had been given a massive power boost, it would’ve only delayed my being forced to learn. And then, later, a much tougher boss would’ve stopped me in my tracks anyway, and I would be so behind on learning that it might turn into an impossible wall. Suddenly your “easy mode” has a much rougher difficulty spike than normal.
And the games are full of things that aren’t made easier by just… scaling. Like managing deathblight, areas like Lake of Rot, stuff like the awkward parkour and areas where you have to play around not falling off. That stuff would have to be reworked to accommodate a player who hasn’t learned proper positioning, or blocks, or just… the general tools of mastering the gameplay.
Slapping a basic scale on the game is a poorly thought out approach that would do more harm than good. To do “easy” right, you’d want a proper balanced game, with reworked timings and boss movesets, and frankly, I don’t think it’s worth the effort and extra development time and cost.
It has literally 0 impact on your experience and would allow others to enjoy the game as much as you do.
Two things here.
A) Adding an easy mode actually would make the game worse for me. When I’m stuck on a hard boss, grinding attempts for hours, that isn’t immediately fun. It builds to a worthwhile payoff, which is why I love these games. But when you’re in it, an easy mode makes you feel like an idiot, wasting your own time suffering when you could walk right past at any moment. Except that lowering the difficulty to bypass something feels terrible, and also, puts you in the position I described above. It robs you of the satisfaction of conquering it and replaces that with guilt and feeling like you couldn’t do it.
B) Someone cruising through on Easy wouldn’t “enjoy the game as much as I do”. Engaging with, and mastering these mechanics is a huge part of what makes these games enjoyable. Skipping that side of the game, jumping past the difficulty robs you of the satisfaction of beating it.
Also, I think many people would enjoy the experience Souls offers, if they’re willing to give it a shot. One of my best friends used to play every game on easy, “why struggle when I could move on and see more of the game?”. He got into Dark Souls 1, and had a hell of a time with it. But because there wasn’t an easy mode, he persevered, and found he loved the stiff challenge and the payoff of beating a boss that really challenged him, and in finding mastery in the mechanics. He’s now a diehard, who’s done SL1 runs of many of the games, and usually starts new games on Hard these days. In a world where DS1 offered an easy mode, he never would’ve tried the designers intended experience, and Souls would’ve been just another decent action adventure.
Souls is offering a rare experience, with tons of alternatives that do offer an easier time. Why not let it shine and highlight what it does better than anyone else?
I’m not sure even 10x damage and health would help you get past the final boss if you don’t know what you’re doing.
No one’s talking about not knowing what they’re doing, they’re talking about physical difficulty performing it unforgivingly
Exactly, my point is that the design of Sekiro is so fundamentally unforgiving that giving you a stats advantage wouldn’t make the final fights substantially easier, and letting you get there without properly learning from the content beforehand would be like trying to teach a child factorials before you’ve ensured they properly understand addition and multiplication.
In this very thread, there’s a comment from a person playing Sekiro with a mod to scale the game down substantially who’s still finding the game prohibitively difficult. That problem is only going to get worse as they get further, and there’s good reason the devs haven’t implemented a naive difficulty scaling like this.
I recently noticed the accessibility settings in Brotato, which are a great example of this. In addition to the normal difficulty setting, in accessibility they give you access to sliders for enemy health/damage/speed and some toggles for other visual and difficulty features.
The only option I use is being able to restart a wave after a death rather than losing the whole run, and it’s kept me occasionally playing the game and enjoying what the devs have created.
For mechanically difficult games, definitely agree. Celeste is an example I usually bring up - it’s a platformer that can get pretty tough at times, especially in the after-story optional levels. But it also has one of the most flexible and useful accessibility modes I’ve ever seen. It allows you to adjust basically every aspect of the game a player might struggle with (game speed, additional jumps, timed mechanics, you name it). And the game itself is very good as well.
It also has a different sort of difficulty. It’s all in bite size chunks, and you can try again immediately. It never feels punishing in the way Souls games do.
Agreed. Games are meant to be enjoyed or as a measure of skill, but they don’t have to be both.
Sucks for console users. On PC there are trainers.
It’s one of the reasons I got my grandparents to transition from consoles to PC. I knew how to fiddle with PC games to make things easier on them.
Still, oftentimes I would end up sending an email of thanks to a dev of some sort, usually along the lines of “I know this isn’t your target audience, but thank you so much for putting in native controller support/UI scaling/story mode/etc in, being able to get this working for my grandparents is a big joy in their lives.”
It’s one of the reasons I got my grandparents to transition from consoles to PC.
The most unexpected sentence I expect I’ll run into today.
My grandparents were the ones who taught me how to play games! It skipped a generation - my mother was never a gamer, but she remembers them always having the latest consoles when she was growing up in the 70s and 80s. I grew up on my grandparents’ laps, watching them pass the PS1 controller back and forth on a dozen different genres. Shooters and horror for my grandfather, puzzles and platformers for my grandmother, and RPGs for both.
My grandparents were poor, so they were always trading in their games down at Gamestop, and then kicking themselves when they had a hankering for it again. And god, having an original copy of Final Fantasy Tactics too scratched to play, and then finding out the only place you could get it in the mid-2000s was on Ebay for 100$? When I learned how emulators and less than legal rom acquisition worked, they were delighted to suddenly have every game they ever traded away back in their hands.
But another problem was that they just couldn’t keep up with modern console gaming. The 360 was the last console they got, and most games were just… not friendly enough for them, especially since their reflexes were in decline (not that grandpa’s were ever great, as he himself would have been first to admit; he was a perpetual cheater with DOOM and Duke Nukem). Being able to transfer them over to PC gaming entirely, and difficulty adjustments as an increasingly standard feature of RPGs in the early 2010s, went a long way towards letting them play modern games again.
My grandfather passed away earlier this year. It’s been weird without him on call every weekend. Miss him terribly.
That’s really awesome. I’m very sorry your grandfather is gone, but at least you have all of those great memories! My dad was a film historian, so I think I feel the same way about classic movies like it sounds like you do about games and how they’re so much a part of not just me, but my family history. Similarly, there are so many times where I see a movie I hadn’t seen before but he would have or just learned a fact about a movie he wouldn’t have known and would have loved to have heard that I think about how great it would be to talk to him about it and miss him. He’s been gone since 2016 but I still think about him a lot. The hurt gets less but it never goes away.
I see where you’re coming from, but when a game’s message is that meaning and purpose is born through hard work and struggling against impossible odds then that message is kinda undercut by a button that turns the struggle off, even if it’s there for a good reason.
I would say that the number of games where that message is core and is reliably reinforced through the gameplay is small.
Getting Over It, for example, would not need an ‘easy mode’, but the vast majority of games should be accessible to as wide an audience as possible - not by compromising the devs’ vision, but by simply allowing players the tools to handle the game at their own pace.
I once made the mistake googling easy mode for Elden ring that someone gifted to me. Once I saw the gatekeeping on Reddit, I decided it’s not a game for me and uninstalled. I’m sorry that I suck at video games
it gets much easier when you start treating it like a rhythm game where you get into dance offs with the enemies:)
and no need to interact with a game’s community when it’s shite, it’s a single player game you can enjoy it however you want! (or don’t, i’m not pressuring you, just don’t want you to miss out on a good game because its fanbase is made of out assholes)
I don’t want to redo the same thing a dozen times just to experience the story and world
fair
Whoop, I mixed up dark souls 3 with Elden ring. Though, the same applies. I did like the gritty atmosphere and lore. The main issue I had was the learning curve and when trying to playing co-op there was no way to turn off strangers joining what I recall. But I bet by now there’s mods for all of that like you said.
Aren’t you still forced to see other people’s insane / spoiler messages even in “single player”?
No, you can disable those too.
Hmm, I might have to take another look at this game then… Thanks!
The messages are very limited and are almost entirely people congratulating you or saying something dumb like fort night
alternatively
dog!
I bought Rain World recently, having heard a lot of good things about it, and I found it hard to get into because I didn’t really see a point to what I was doing, whether I was doing it right, etc, so I put “how to enjoy Rain World” into my search engine of choice and found an article with some beginner tips, one of which being that the bleak, helpless feel is intentional and part of the experience. I respect it as an artistic decision, but my private and work lives are stressful enough as it is, which is probably partly why I was bouncing off the game, so I just got a refund, and I’m fine with that decision.
If you ever want to give it a shot, everything in the souls games can be trivialized if you just farm a little extra between the next fight.
That’s not to say it won’t be difficult at times, but if you prepare yourself well enough you can take just about anything.
Honestly just ignoring the YouTuber meme builds and pumping vitality to 40 right away makes all the souls games pretty approachable.
I never understood the obsession with stupid difficult games at all. It’s like, let me bang my head on a coffee table for 3 hours trying to make 5 minutes of progress. No thanks
Edit: Wow, this blew up, quite a controversial take, and not a hint of irony from all the people commenting about how I don’t get it.
Edit 2: For what it’s worth, I have played Dark Souls 1 all the way through, some of Dark Souls 2, got to the end of Bloodborne, played about 3 hours of Elden Ring, and a bit of Lies of P. These games just aren’t for me. I played them bcz my friend loves them, and I was trying to make a soulslike bcz that seems to be all the rage right now.
ER is not even difficult unless you specifically want it to be
I played it for 3 hours. Unless I’m missing something, it’s incredibly difficult.
Here’s 2 tips:
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Level up Vigor. Health is how you make early game easier.
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Skip bosses. There isn’t a hard linear progression path and different builds struggle with different parts of the game.
Counter-point: No.
I rather play something fun.
Everyone experiences fun in their own ways. You’re allowed to not want to play hard games just like other people are allowed to want to play hard games. It doesn’t have to be an argument about which is “better.”
Fun is subjective. For me, challenge is fun.
-
On the flip side, I don’t understand why people like playing video games that just tell a story and pretty much spoon feed every victory to the player. It feels hollow and incredibly boring.
like movies?
You know there’s a middle ground, right? There exist games that manage to balance difficulty in a way that gives players a consistent challenge that they’re just able to overcome. The best games have these things called “difficulty settings” that let you customize that challenge so that you can decide how hard you want it to be
It’s me, the target audience for “walking simulators.” Sometimes I just like experiencing stories that stick with me, be it as a movie, book or game. On the other hand, I can’t stand games that try to have a story but it’s just not a good story (or only good by video game standards).
On the flip side, I don’t understand why people like playing video games that just tell a story and pretty much spoon feed every victory to the player. It feels hollow and incredibly boring.
Do you feel that way about movies? Because what you’re essentially describing there is an interactive movie. Maybe they’re selling it as a game, but that’s because there’s no market for a product that calls itself an interactive movie.
This is my viewpoint as well.
From immediate memory I feel Mass Effect, and Ratchet and Clank, fit this category.
Both are still very fun despite the fact.
There was a company that actually put out two “games” which they came right out at front and called interactive movies. They were called Quantum Gate and The Vortex.
The first one was, in my opinion, really good. There was no game at all. It was basically a choose-your-own-adventure where you walked around and encountered people and there were short video clip interactions with them in a first person perspective. With the second one, they tried to do too much and it was nowhere near as good, but the concept was sound and I wish it was more common.
I don’t expect a movie to have gameplay. I don’t expect a video game to be a movie.
If I want to watch a movie, I watch a movie. When I want to play a game, I want to actually play something. Not just sit back and watch.
Well I guess it’s too bad for you that other people have other tastes and those tastes are also catered to. 🤷
Did I say I dislike people who like those things, or something? I just said I don’t understand it. You have a choice of an active or a passive medium; why would you insist on turning the active medium into a passive one instead of just sticking to the passive medium in the first place?
Must’ve struck a nerve here because dude who says “I don’t understand hard games” gets people explaining why people would like a hard game; but I say I don’t understand extremely easy games and everyone treats it like a gotcha moment.
Very game dependant for me. I enjoy metro/stalker on their highest difficulties and play CS2 sometimes but most other singleplayer games yeah no thanks. It’s mostly just a flat increase to health and damage anyway
For me it was great challenge. Sure it was not easy but it’s doable and the feeling of overcoming a fight you thought to be impossible gives a great feeling of growth and succes.
I get that, that’s what my friend says too. He really enjoys Souls games. I just don’t feel the same way.
Maybe stop and think that it isn’t that difficult to everyone? I don’t want to sound elitist, but people have different level of skills at video games (or anything really).
Saying no games should be hard is like saying no books should be difficult to read. To take the book analogy further, at some point after reading a lot of books you want to read more and more complex books. To say we shouldn’t have difficult books would be a disservice to those who want them.
Both easy and hard games should exist. And everything in between. Not every game needs to be played by everyone, which I think really is the issue. People feeling left out or pressured into games that aren’t their play style.
Complaining that the game is too hard , or the opposite, that the player is too bad. Both of these are the wrong approach. The best approach is “I’m not the intended audience for this game”
But what if I want to play ER for the story that everyone keeps gushing about?
Then watch someone on YouTube do the suffering for you. At that point it’s just a movie.
See, there are many soulslike games that have attempted this; make the base game play normally, but also add invincibility options or low-difficulty modes for those who prefer it. BUT, those games don’t work, and utterly fail, because --TODO: INSERT BULLSHIT MADE UP REASON BEFORE POSTING–
I’d recommend looking up guides to help griding up to level 150 and do a guided build. Then you can take on every boss pretty easily with 20min of practice.
And here is the problem with elden ring.
Grinding.
Since when is grinding fun? The word itself, grinding isn’t even fun.
Elden ring is my most played most hated game. I come back for the vistas, the art. But there is no story and if there is it’s stupidly well hidden. Some story quests are so very easily missed and other things just impossible to do without a guide. Also the fact that there is no quest log (do this for that guy) makes returning to elden ring after a hiatus almost impossible.
Choosing a fighter class makes the game way too hard. But if you choose a caster the difficulty drops like 400% or even more.
No guidance. Nothing. Fuck you if you chose a samurai because he looked cool on your first playthrough.
Everything is hidden behind a grind wall. And so many quests are so very buggy. In my current playthrough I should meet blaidd the half wolf down below looking up to whats the cities name. But he isnt there. Doesn’t spawn. Apparently i went of on another quest and it conflicts or something. Now im stuck.
Do bushes talk? Here they do. Because one of them isn’t a bush. A voice says: over here! But what is that, exactly? Here? Where is here? Im on a computer, directional audio doesn’t really work. It took me hours to find that useless guy.
Jellyfish. Just kill them, they are inconsequential and do not really interact with the player. They cant talk. Untill… You’re far into the game and suddenly you hear a voice. Talking about his/her lost spouse. Who? Where? You just slay that jellyfish because they cant talk, that cant be it. Or… It could? Fuck it was. Important item forever locked to you.
If you like that kind of foolery in a game i seriously recommend the 80s/90s sierra online games. Police quest, kings quest, the larry games. But i thought we where way past those kind of stupid game mechanics. Ken sent me. Flush the toilet. But not too many times because then you drown. Go to the hooker but if you forgot to buy a condom you die. Dont give a too big tip to the cabbie. He will buy liquor, get drunk and kill you both. The dialog made that fun. The first time.
The difference was, in those ganes i could save scum. Here I can’t.
I fucking love AC6. that’s a masterpiece by from software. But ER? ER shouldn’t be easier, it should explain more. Not much but a little. I see you chose a fighter. Are you sure? We recommend a caster class for beginners. Give me a quest log. Unbug those quests. Give a warning if something breaks something else.
And thats the problem with ER. It could be fantastic
Saying that it shouldn’t just to feel something (I.e. a smug sense of superiority)
I haven’t played Eldin Ring, but if it’s story driven, I would 100% support an easy mode for those that want the story and not a time sink.
I love that Nine Sols includes the option, although I haven’t personally used it.
I dislike how people use game completion as a method to gloat
Like bro, don’t we all play games to have fun?
Some people see videogames as a legitimate art medium that generates experiences. Not all experiences have to be fun. Some can be scary, somber, or introspective.
I’m currently playing Elden Ring for the first time and I’m note sure if I’m not just doing it for self-flagellation instead of fun
I separate people into two camps.
People who beat THE Sega Genesis classic Sonic 3 with lock-on Technology with Sonic and Knuckles and achieved all 12 Chaos Emeralds, and LOSERS.
Hey, look, I found one of those posts where it OK to be sexist.
Edit: Saying “Hey, look, I found one of those posts where it OK to be sexist,” in a room full of virtue signallers just to feel something.
le edit, the second: I guess based on the downvotes in the thread Lemmy.ml is refederated.
remember, as a man on the internet you’re not allowed to have opinions on something, even if they’re formed by your own experiences and you clarify them as such. your opinions exist to be mocked and ridiculed for sport.
oh, but it’s also a real mystery why far right incel groups have seen a massive upsurge in membership, no way to logically connect the two.
Technically you re right that’s sexist (if you gender swap the post that’s weird) but in reality I didn’t even noticed it and probably don’t care
Equality isn’t a buffet.
Yes, we get it. You and your Y chromosome feel very oppressed. I’m glad I’m not this sensitive about my own possession of a penis.
…in a comment section where the OP’s gender hasn’t even been mentioned?
Or is it this old meme?
The “OP”, if you are referring to the screenshot, is presenting feminine, and talks about walking into a room full of men and doing something that they believe intentionally trolls men.
I think you missed the point. Many games have toxic communities that attack women and tell them they’re no good enough, along with much more unsavoury shit. Playing into that, you can get a very aggressive response and “feel something”. It’s less about trolling men and more the attacks many women get from elitist male gamers.
Do you think women aren’t allowed to talk about sexist gaming communities?
So, the equal rights movements aren’t about bringing certain people up to the level of everyone else, but instead bringing all others down to the oppressed’s level?
I just want to make sure I am on the same page as everyone else moving forward.
It is about bringing people to the same level. In this case, when women can go into gaming circles and not get snide, sarcastic comments about their perceived lack of skill, or overtly sexualized unsolicited comments, then we are there. We are not yet.
The fact you’re getting triggered by women not being happy about this is a little odd.
Surely you’d want young women relatives of yours to not have a shitty environment like this?
Right, and what the commenters are saying, along with yourself, is that it is ok to degrade others as long as it’s “their turn.” The patriarchy has been in power for too long, we better hate all men just to be safe. Wouldn’t want to miss any of the bad ones, so we’ll blame all of them for our problems.
That’s generalization. That’s the enemy. If you want to hate against exclusivity in gaming, you can’t generalize by saying something like the op screenshot. Instead, you would replace “men” with “soulsbourne gatekeepers.” If that doesn’t have the same weight as what the screenshot originally said, then you should look at what was changed and why it made you feel a certain way. Bias is a bitch, and it goes hand in hand with generalization. When you generalize, as the screenshot did, it’s bringing a shotgun to an archery range. Sure, you’ll hit the target, but you aren’t doing it right.
Joking about men over-explaining a difficult game is not oppressing them
So all the comedians that tell sexist jokes about women are a-ok in your book? Good to know.
Not what I said but nice try. Groups that are systemically oppressed joking about those that aren’t is in no way equal to the reverse
DAE male gamers are the real oppressed ones.
Gamers aren’t oppressed, but they should be
Thanks for telling your truth.
screenshot OP: “lol don’t Gamers get so heated when you talk about difficulty modes is soulslikes”
the Gamer in question: “I SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO BE SEXIST FOR THIS!!!”
also i don’t think you know what virtue signaling means
Hey, look, this one is misrepresenting easily verifiable information.
Yes.
Also just generally better accommodation in general. If a paraplegic guy with control over one finger wants to play Elden Ring, there should be settings to accommodate that. That’s not even making it easier; they’re already facing much more difficulty in the first place. It’s just leveling the playing field.
How would you even expect the developers to accommodate every possible combination of disabilities?
Easy mode ftw. I’ve only got so much free time. I wanna chill when I’m gaming.
You don’t want to spend twenty hours trying to beat one boss, and being told to git gud whenever you ask for advice on the internet? But think of the sense of pride and accomplishment you’ll feel when you finally beat it! The best part is you get to go through this like 10 times
/s
I am playing Sekiro with a easy mode mod.
Even with being able to kill everything with 1-4 hits, I was getting TRASHED by bosses. People play this without the mod? 😭
It’s a difficult game for sure. Probably the most difficult out of the FromSoft games. Not to feed into the meme but the game does click once you get to a certain boss in the game. The combat feels natural, you know what to do and how to do it usually etc. It’s a really difficult game and the final boss might just be the most difficult I’ve ever had the displeasure of fighting against (they get a lot easier once you know what you’re doing)
You need to understand the absolute bliss of finnally beating that fucking ape, after hours of trying only for you to decapitate him, then the arm reaches over and picks up the head for the second health bar. Do you know what the reward is after days of attempts? 20 minutes later, you fight two at once, and you’ll do it like it was stomping a goomba in Mario Brothers.
Git gud casul?
Otherwise…
Finger but, whole.
Counterpoint: not every game needs to be chill
It’s a choice. You don’t have to take it
Yes it’s a choice, but there need to be games that are difficult for that choice matter.
Many hard modes are just bullet sponges and extra grinding.
Where else can we find difficult games that are meant to be difficult in every aspect and not just a tacked on mode with larger health numbers?
That’s what souls games are. If you want an easy mode play ER or a different game. Not every game is designed for you.
You can also choose to play a game designed to be easy. A game like hotline Miami on “chill mode” is not the same as the actually hard hotline Miami.
If you want to just walk from cut scene to cut scene just watch someone else play the game.
The choice existing would impact how players play, which may also go against the artistic vision. You don’t have to play a non-chill game.
I’ve never had vitriol spewed at me quite like when I argue in favor of easy mode for soulslike games. I’m at a point where I hate soulslike games, half because I don’t want to spend ten hours on a boss that I can’t beat, and half because I don’t want to associate with soulsborne players
I see a lot of bait like this around, I also see a lot of double standards in gaming.
All of the Souls games kinda have an easy mode baked in. Ranged weapons/Sorceries generally provide an easier experience. Honestly though, I just find I don’t really care if there is an easy mode or not. I enjoyed the challenge and if a difficulty slider was added, it would not have detracted from my experience in the slightest. I played through the games for the challenge and I enjoyed it immensely. If someone else doesn’t enjoy the challenge, then that’s okay. I’m not going to gatekeep them. We’re all SunBro’s at our core and I will always drop my Summon Sign for others in need to find
