- cross-posted to:
- curatedtumblr@sh.itjust.works
- cross-posted to:
- curatedtumblr@sh.itjust.works
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I’ve seen things you people wouldn’t believe. Critical government services running COBOL. Programs stored in magnetic tapes, entire offices dependant on one guy who’s retiring. All that code will be lost in time, like tears in rain
There is genuine money to be made in learning the “dead languages” of the IT world. If you’re the only person within 500 Miles that knows how to maintain COBOL you can basically name your price when it comes to salary.
I just wish I had the slightest interest in programing
I’ve seriously looked into picking one of these dead languages up and honestly, it’s not worth it.
Biggest issue is, you have to be experienced to some degree before you get the name your price levels. So you’ll have to take regular ol average programmer pay (at best) for a language that’s a nightmare in 2023. Your sanity is at heavy risk.
I’d honestly rather bash my head with assembly, it’s still very much in use these days in a modern way. Most programs still get compiled into it anyway (Albeit to a far more complicated instruction set than in the past) and can still land some well paid positions for not a whole lot of experience (relatively)
Yeah everytime someone says “just learn COBOL, you’ll make tons of money,” it’s like,
Bro.
There’s a reason no one wants to write new software in these languages anymore, let alone maintain a forty-year-old pile of technical debt.
Been working in COBOL for a decade and this is all true.
I’m lucky. I personally enjoy it. But i can totally see how it’s an absolute nightmare for most people.
I’ve been meaning to learn Fortran in part because because of the whole “big bucks for being willing to maintain old software” thing, but mostly because I’d like to work on the sorts of scientific computing software that was (and still often is) written in Fortran.
Fortran syntax is a warm summer rain tickling your face compared to c++ for high performance computing which is like slap in the face for non it peeps
Sounds like you got a golden shower from Fortran.
Enjoy.
Its not peepee until you know its pee.
COBOL isn’t too terrible, it has its gotchas (like sizing variables for inputs (in which you don’t need space for the datas headers and will break stuff if you do)) but mostly it’s an old language designed to be easy to use
New staff in my workplace first using COBOL (with other build experience) learn it to the point they’re productive in a week or two
Yeah man I’ll take plain old php and java any time of day, I can still get enough money from it to pay my lifestyle. And at 5pm I can close my laptop and play vidya with no worries.
This is one of those fantasies people have. You might as well hope to win the lottery.
Imagine being the only person who can play a extremely custom instrument. Unless someone absolutely needs you, you’ll be sitting and hoping to get a job. Worse, a company is more likely to hire some people to rebuild it rather than hope to find this unicorn who can do this.
Source: Been in the industry for 15yrs. I’m one of those guys you hire to migrate old software to a web app. And frequently, company will pay to modernize rather than support outdated tech every time.
Been in the industry for 10 years and i deeply disagree with you. I work in COBOL.
Not that migrations don’t happen, but in my experience, many, many companies kick that can down the road each year, because migrating huge and critical services is extremely costly, time-consuming and risky. In the short term, just paying people to maintain the dinosaurs is waaaay cheaper.
Also, it’s extremely easy to get a job in it ( my company now hires people with no IT background and tries to teach them cobol from scratch ), because even though it’s a niche, the demand for it still outweighs the supply of people willing to learn it.
Will it die out eventually? Maybe. I’ve been hearing about its death for a decade, so i’ve become skeptical about it in the short-term.
Edit : would also like to point out that it is indeed a fantasy that it pays truckloads of money. Does it happen? Sometimes, but you need to be really good and experienced at it.
I’ll learn cobol. What company? I do have an it background as a bonus though.
Good luck to you!
I’d rather not dox myself, but i can tell you i’m in eastern europe working for a western european bank. COBOL is still heavily used in the banking and insurance sectors, by companies that started using it 50 years ago.
If you do manage to learn the ropes, the salary does tend to be above average for a mid-level programmer.
COBOL case is bit different. You can’t just modernize millions of lines of code that is functionally unique without service disruption - and services that uses COBOL that large often tends to be very sensitive.
The fact that COBOL as a language is both atrocity to either use or read didn’t help that either.
Unlike a custom instrument, a dead programming language can be company critical though.
How about a little casual graming on the side?
Just have a look at the American pension system. They collect all their documents on paper in an old salt mine. Truckloads of documents per month.
There is some logic to running older stuff, a lot of it is a closed system and it’s harder for threats to target it. Banks are a big one that still run a ton of our financial infrastructure on COBOL.
Hospitals also run on a ton of abandon ware, same with machine shops. Ultrasound machines that are still running 95 because for the hospital to upgrade to windows 7 or 10 is millions for a few machines. So you just airgap the systems for security.
Credit to them for not wanting to move to 98 either.
The good part about it is being more sustainable by using the same PCs for three decades.
Imagine banks, hospitals and so on regularly replacing their machines. That would be an ungodly amount of electronics
Unfortunately, they still have parts that fail, the good news is most of its being replaced with new old stock, so not technically new stuff. I know a good number of companies that have stock piles of basically museum level hardware, to replace failing parts.
“But migrating to more well known tech and languages still costs too much!”
-HR and Budget offices the world over
Magnetic tapes aren’t that surprising, it’s just even more cost effective storage than HDD.
Highly agree with the first point, companies should not be able to hold exclusive rights to any product they no longer provide support for.
Abandonware and unsold products are one of the few cases in which I consider piracy ethical
piracy isn’t theft, but how do you feel about “stealing” from a thief? in the case of corporate software, the company already stole the surplus value created by their developers’ labor.
Publishers and film makers too. Keep it in print or lose rights (though I’d rather have much shorter copyright periods). Changed products get their own copyright, but the old version falls out if you stop selling it.
Originally copyright was like 15 years and if the thing was really good for you then you could Apply for a second 15 year term.
30 years is a long time to get a monopoly over something. As a human being, 30 years is a significant part of your entire lifetime. From birth to 30 years you have your entire childhood, many people go to and finish college, get married, have kids, achieve a degree of professional success. Another 30 years from that moment, many people are at the end of their lives. They’re retiring, some who smoked or did other things are dying of old people diseases.
I believe strongly enough that 15 years is a reasonable copyright term that my book, the graysonian ethic, which I published in 2021, has a note on the legal page releasing it to the public domain 15 years from the first date of publishing, and in jurisdictions where you can’t do that, it’s licensed under the creative Commons zero license
If I want to own the rights to another book, I can write another book. If I can’t make back the money that I spent writing and publishing it in 15 years, then that’s a me problem, not a society problem the police can help enforce.
The famous song Happy Birthday left copyright only a couple years ago, and not because it timed out. The song which was written in the era of my great grandparents only lost protection from the largest state in history because after a hundred years no one could keep track of who owned it anymore.
From birth to 30 years you have your entire childhood, many people go to and finish college, get married, have kids, achieve a degree of professional success. Another 30 years from that moment, many people are at the end of their lives
Oh, don’t hurt me like that, please…
Honestly, the only silver lining of Ron DeSantis’s feud with Disney over anti-gay legislation is that the Republicans might end up undoing all the copyright extensions Disney lobbied for over the past few decades.
Disney is largely to blame for America’s copyright laws being so fucked.
Honestly, the less special treatment any one corporation gets, or the less special treatment corporations as a whole get, that’s a win for everyone else in society.
Most people on both sides of the aisle if you stepped away from the specific political situation would agree that companies should not be allowed to form their own municipal governments, either.
I think part of the problem is that it is very dependent on what the invention is. Yeah, for some nicknack, that’s a reasonable time frame. But for some kind of massive project, where distribution, complicated supply chains, and many people are involved, this time gets eaten up quick. Imagine you have an invention, thats totally cool, but 10 years of your time is taken up trying to make it at scale to make it profitable? Meanwhile, someone else can establish all those things without breaking patent, and go to market as your patent closes. You aren’t wrong, its just not always so simple.
Copyright isn’t patents. I think patents are presently 20 years, nowhere near the lifetime + 70 years of copyrights.
I work in an astrophysics department and this is exactly why we almost exclusively use open source software
Based
This
It’s a good read, read it.
+1, do not regret
Games publishers are in a war of attention and don’t want to compete with themselves. They won’t sell you an old game if they can get you hooked on the new version with microtransactions and DLC with no story and sub-par multiplayer.
The next point is just making the case for open source.
Some companies just make their new version compelling. You can’t get the experience of Balders Gate 3 by playing Balders Gate 1.
I think they’re all competing with themselves anyway, the biggest customer group for Whatever 5 will be players of Whatever 4. Giving away Whatever 1, 2, and 3 will increase sales of 4 and 5
Kinda related, in the company I used to work everything was done in SAS, an statistical analysis software (SAS duh) that fucking sucks. It’s used to be great, but once your on their environment you are trapped for fucking forever. I hated it and refuse to learned it over what was basic for my daily tasks. A couple of months I moved to another company that used to pay a consulting firm for my job, so my boss and me had to start everything fresh and the first thing we did was to study what are going to use as statistics software and I fight tooth and nails for Python and one of the points I pushed was that if in the future we decide to move out of Python we could easily can do it, while other solutions could locked up us with them.
If you rely on free packages in Python for processing, those are as likely to become obsolete as anything else (if not more likely). I also really dislike the compatibility issues with different versions of different packages, the whole environment aspect. Buying new computer with different version of windows? Who knows what will work there.
In this sense for scientific computation I prefer something like MATLAB. Code written 40 years ago, most likely would still work. New computer? No problem, no configuration, just install Matlab, and it runs! Yes, it costs money, but you get what you paid for. Mathematica is another option, but I mean ugh!
I mostly use pandas that I don’t think is going anywhere, we’re also going to start tests with a library called ‘chainladder’ that is used for some actuarial reserves calculations, from everything else I’m programming custom functions because as far as I know, there’s not a lot of actuarial mathematics libraries on Python (R have much more support for that, but I prefer the flexibility of Python, like a good portion of my job is scrapping our regulatory body website for information and not sure how good R work on that).
If you really don’t want to spend money, there’s always GNU Octave. Sure, it doesn’t have the thousands of matlab toolboxes, but if you’re running code from 40 years ago it shouldn’t need those anyway. I wrote a couple of scripts recently and then rewrote them slightly so that they would be compatible with octave.
Matlab is ugly because it’s so backwards compatible. And it only is backwards compatible until someone decides to use it to interface with external hardware that you need a specific version of some library for.
This happens in the world of CNC machines too. I used to run a two million dollar Mazak 300 Fabrigear that was made in 2008. When I started the machine up, Windows 98 booted up before starting the FANUC control program that actually ran the machine.
My friend’s dad has a CNC machine that requires floppy disks to load the design patterns. He’s worried that a mechanical failure of the disk drive will eventually be the end of it, rather than the machine itself being obsolete. It’s been going strong for almost 40 years now.
Look for usb floppy emulators, you can have the floppy images in a usb flash drive. No moving parts or need to find expensive floppies.
If this thing relies on floppy, I don’t imagine it would be USB compatible
It’s reverse: you get a board that has a floppy interface on one side and a USB socket on the other. You plug in a USB drive and the board uses a file on the drive as the floppy disk, pretending to be a floppy Drive connected to the interface. It’s a little less convenient because you have to deal with disk images but it works without moving parts.
I see, like those car radio cassette to aux cable modules
It might be possible to buy an old floppy drive off ebay and switch out the broken one of that happens, as long as there are no proprietary connectors and such…
Compaq would like a word.
Ah yes, Compaq, the company that used non standard power supplies but with the standard wire coloring and connectors. I had several customers blow up their motherboards after buying standard replacement power supplies.
GoTEK SFR1M44-U100 3.5 Inch 1.44MB USB SSD Floppy Drive Emulator Black https://a.co/d/hJwq736
Almost 40 years, so it’s been running since the 80s? Damn, older than Windows.
As long as it’s not connected to a network and is actually maintained, there’s nothing specifically wrong with Windows 98. Also just make sure the USB ports are shut.
It’s amazing even for the cheaper CnC machines in other industries running on Dos or Win95, 98, XP. I use to have to maintain the hardware of these older PCs as the initial outlay to replace the machines was fairly high compared to stress and much lower cost of finding old hardware.
In the end with the modem equivalent CnC machines on the lower end we would only see minimal upgrades to the functions of the machines, versus the updates to the software. Let’s me honest that would become obsolete yet again within a few years.
It’s the circle of life?
My work used to use (until a project I worked on* to bypass it) a document formatter that lived in a set of chips on an ISA card
ISA slots went rare with Pentium 1/586; were extinct not much later
We had a beige box and a backup beige box. When parts failed the replacements were incredibly expensive (enough it was worth 12*60 pdays of fixing)
(* On resumes, I was totally critical to that project; in reality it was build led, and I was in design)
I agree, although the number of pointless updates that would be pushed so that companies can keep the rights to their software makes me cringe
Capitalism will always capitalism. “Oh, we have to provide a healthy option? Okay, it’ll be the expensive option.” “Oh, we have to support software? Okay, subscription models only” “Oh, we have to pay our workers minimum wage? Okay, we’ll pay them not a penny more and raise our prices”
It’s an endless fight… Yet, we can’t stop fighting it, because attrition of our values and apathy in our actions are weapons the system uses against us.
Even books have the same. IIRC the ‘corrected’ version of Bilbo receiving the ring came into the Hobbit because the publisher wanted Tolkien to make a revised version to keep the copyright going.
(I presume the corrected version of that chapter was just taking advantage of the opportunity, but still…)
IP shouldn’t exist in general.
But then how would TCP and UDP work?
simple. TCP wouldn’t, and UDP never did anyway.
and UDP never did anyway As a CS student I’ve laughed way to hard when reading this
Fair, lol
Time to load up NetBIOS and… Stuff.
It was so hard for me to grasp at some point over a decade earlier that in the past, in the middle ages and earlier for example, that people would publish all these educational books…and none of the info was copyrighted; literally anyone could find some book published by some random Greek or Arab person and just take all the knowledge, and release their own stuff that just freely builds on the knowledge contained within, or that inventions could be copied by anyone and no one was like ‘pay me for my brilliance’.
Absolutely. Free flow of information without pay wall allows humanity to collectively build upon itself.
At the same time, paying people who generate, develop and curate information, enables and encourages more people to do so. IMHO one of the amazing things about the open source movement is it’s built on so much generosity of time and resources.
Could your average joe even afford to buy a single one of those handwritten books? Or even read said book for that matter…
Yes, but it’s important to remember that a much (most?) of that work was performed by those with hereditary wealth, under the patronage of those with hereditary wealth, under the patronage of the church, or by clergy who had plenty of free time beyond their duties and no separate need to earn income for housing and food. In fact, one reason to enter the clergy was to gain access to the resources to pursue other activities.
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Property other than what you personally use to live shouldn’t exist, but if we’re moving away from capitalism, IP is not first on the list of things to abandon
Also, I could see some forms of IP being higher on the list than others. A market socialist setup, where every company is a worker owned co-op, would still have a lot of use for Trademarks. It could be a far less abusive system than the one we have now, but we’d still want it to exist.
Market socialism itself is likely to only be a transitory step, though.
Yes.
A monopoly is thought to inspire creation, if that’s so IP is good, but should be on human timescales.
100 years of monopoly won’t inspire me any better than 20 years, and even most cooperate products have less time in production than that
I work for a company who’s main source of income is a suite of accounting, stock and job management applications, all of which are written in FoxPro. The community add-ons and support is incredible but there hasn’t been any official support since like 2009.
Microsoft bought the license for FoxPro, supported it for a few years then killed it off when VB came out. I wonder why xD
The crazy part is some of our clients are turning over 100s of millions in profit a year, using this crappy, mess of a system written in a dead language, by one dude 😂
It gets worse than this.
Not only does most scientific instrument software become abandonware, but there are companies that sell instruments that use the exact same components as they did 20 years ago. The only difference is now they swapped the stainless steel parts for plastic and charge luxury car prices for what will be a piece of garbage in 3 years. These pieces have nothing to do with chemical compatibility and everything to do with increasing the frequency of maintenance that the older models never needed.
This post is so true. I work in local government in a state that has TONS of money, yet our systems to control the information for agents to determine if you keep your kids or not is still based on MS-DOS. it’s insane to see in 2023
Using something like DOS is neither preferred nor more safe. Last time MS DOS received a security patch was 23 years ago. It’s open to pretty much any security vulnerability you can think of. In case you depend on a DOS app it’s preferable to run it on a modern OS that is DOS compatible, windows 10 32bit for example (I believe Win11 still has support). Or even better sandboxed in an emulator like DOSBox on a more secure OS.
I really don’t want to rely on security through obscurity… MS-DOS was written back when every programmer trusted everything that ran on the computer, security wasn’t even an afterthought, and encryption was the sole domain of math nerds, conspiracy theorists, and the nerd equivalent of doomsday preppers because it was “too computationally expensive.” Its sole saving grace in terms of security is that it doesn’t support multitasking so malware can’t run in the background, but you can just target whatever software it’s running, instead.
Regarding “the company made the new tech incompatible with the new tech to force people to buy the new”, I’ll invoke Hanlon’s razor.
I worked for a software company that was bought out by a microscope company, because they realized making a new software from scratch for each microscope was very expensive.
They did not have the know-how to reuse the software.
And yes. They were that bad at software, when they bought us out, colleagues of mine audited the software they were writing for their newest microscope, and it was so bad they threw out the whole thing to start from scratch, with proper software engineering practices.
Also, there is an open source toolkit that is pretty good at reading microscope data called VTK (IIRC it’s developed partly by Zeiss, one of the two main microscope manufacturers).
Yup somebody suggest that person VTK(open source) for the person in the post
I love this post. How can you have the rights to something you don’t support?
Intellectual property rights. They even wanted to extend it recently so they can milk old stuff.
Perhaps it could be like copyrights and patents? If you don’t defend them, you lose them, and in some cases they expire after a set amount of time and then they can be used by others
