Western perception of “Social credit” largely propaganda btw and if you believe it isnt then you got manipulated.
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With or without credit scores, banks are going to be assessing you for whether you’re likely to pay back the loans they provide. Even if you deleted all credit scores overnight so everyone had to do individual assessments, you’re still getting assessed and a credit score in all but name will emerge. If you’re a high risk, banks will just put a big mark on your name that says “Don’t lend to this person, they don’t pay their debts” like they do in Austria.
The only real difference between the US Credit Score and the Chinese Social Credit is that the Chinese Social Credit takes other factors into account in whether you are considered worthy enough to have a loan, which isn’t aaaall that different to how it’s done in the UK, where registering to vote makes your credit score go up, but then again lenders in the UK don’t tend to use credit scores for things like mortgages, they use their own checks.
Both are bad and both countries are authoritarian shit holes
Yes and No. Ask Lee Camp how China treats Tibet.
Two things can suck at the same time.
That’s what he said! … wait
Isnt social credit system just a meme?
No, it effects a lot of ways in which you are allowed to live
Not sure why you got a downvote, this is absolutely true. If you have a low SSC you may be subject to travel bans, reduced employment prospects, being barred from attending certain schools, increased surveillance and police monitoring, and public shaming. Other individuals can also have their scores lowered by interacting with you.
So credit scores are… good?
I hate you.
Could at least argue credit shows your payment history and debt to income ratio, social credit score could be literally anything. Both can suck at the same time.
If you lack sufficient Internet points you cannot discuss that here.
Because our ssn was stolen many of times, our credit score was low even after we fought off all the charges and couldn’t get an apartment without a garentour. Moved to Spain and never needed a garentour or social check in basic necessities, hell we could go for a loan and the only thing judged is our reasoning. Slowly waiting for permanent residency and citizenship :)
So actually looked into the social credit system a while ago and it turns out a lot of it is myth and it seems to have been largely wound down after some abuse by some of the ?prefectures? where it was trialed and used to punish a few people (it was supposed to reward good behaviour by businesses and institutions apparently) but what remains did strike me as very similar to credit score, although it’s maybe slightly more accountable? Maybe?
Anyway both seem dogshit, although a system verifying how organisations actually act (e.g. counter greenwashing and shit with hard evidence) would be cool if anyone could make it work.
As usual, investigation into socialist practices reveals that the negative opinions held by the west are largely based on propaganda and lies.
759 credit score. Still don’t qualify.
Damn, what happened here? I can only feel the warm ground, but I can tell there was a fire.
ikr, i feel like i missed the drama
Guess we’ll never know, friend.
The Chinese social credit thing is a myth. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System
Not to say credit scores are fun, but comparing the two is kinda absurd. Credit scores are calculated by private companies and used by banks to determine your eligibility for a loan. Essentially, it’s an averaged history of how good you are at repaying debt, and it’s used to determine if you will repay future debt. The people who calculate your score have no interest in how it affects you. The social credit system is a government score and has tons of things that can affect it, and there’s plenty of opportunity for fudgery to screw you over. There are tons of ways in can negatively affect you. Worst of all, it can be used to deny international flights, and in effect your ability to escape the system. Since this is actually run by the government, it creates an avenue for punishing political dissent and control that just doesn’t exist with credit scores.
Right in the first half, extremely wrong in the second half (But you should be forgiven, we all get heavily propagandized about this stuff). What we know of the Chinese “social credit” score in the west is largely a tall tale / myth. Here, from the top of the English wikipedia article about the Chinese system:
There has been a widespread misconception that China operates a nationwide and unitary social credit “score” based on individuals’ behavior, leading to punishments if the score is too low. Media reports in the West have sometimes exaggerated or inaccurately described this concept.[4][5][6] In 2019, the central government voiced dissatisfaction with pilot cities experimenting with social credit scores. It issued guidelines clarifying that citizens could not be punished for having low scores and that punishments should only be limited to legally defined crimes and civil infractions. As a result, pilot cities either discontinued their point-based systems or restricted them to voluntary participation with no major consequences for having low scores.[4][7] According to a February 2022 report by the Mercator Institute for China Studies (MERICS), a social credit “score” is a myth as there is “no score that dictates citizen’s place in society”.[4]
It’s still a credit score system, so it’s still one of those dumb monolithic systems a large authoritarian country implements when it can’t be bothered to keep track of it’s citizens on a qualitative level - Like FICO in the US - But it doesn’t leak outside of that context in the way we westerners are told. In fact, our myths about that probably came out of the incidents in 2019 when the central government tamped down on local abuses of the system.
The Social Credit doesn’t exist, FICO does. One has more impact because it’s real.
The main difference is that credit score exists while the Chinese social score doesn’t.
I don’t think many people in the West like credit score system either tbh
Since this is an anarchist instance, I was willing to give OP the benefit of a doubt that this is against states in general but, alas, reading their comments it is whataboutism
In another thread they were praising Stalin so I don’t think they deserve benefit of the doubt.
i’m getting close to blocking. their behavior i feel violates rule 6 (or 7 i can’t see the sidebar on mobile) that users of this community should not deify past socialist experience. they have demonstrated a pattern of behavior that strongly favors imperialism with a veneer of leftist aesthetic. the mods ignoring this pattern in the face of reports has left a really bad taste in my mouth that’s been slowly driving me away from dbzer0 and anarchist.nexus, two of my former favorite instances aside from my own here at slrpnk.net.
totalitarian authoritarian regimes are what socialism and communism are meant to be an alternative to, not something we should celebrate as long as they wear a red coat of paint. it’s been very dissapointing as the rules of this communicate that this is supposed to be a generally left comm but more and more it’s just !memes@lemmy.ml but on another instance
Yes I do feel leftymemes @ dbzer0 unfortunately has a sizeable ML influence.
The main mod of this community actually does some soviet union apologia I think. Which means the rules 6 basically isnt followed while they’re in charge.
It’s really only 2 or 3 users (who I think are mods or admins) that are pushing the tankie trash.
db0 the admin seems alright, so I’m not sure why they allow this behavior here.
Keep in mind, nobody has been able to cite a single comment of mine that has “deified” anything. I have never praised Stalin (go check my comment history), however I have merely pointed out the success of the USSR. Big fucking deal lol.
Honesty hilarious and ironic to see this level of panic and censorship over a mere difference of opinion, while crying about the authoritarianism of China and Stalin.
Pretty embarrassing for you guys.
I have never praised Stalin (go check my comment history)
You heard it folks. Saying that Stalin was a communist is now “praise”. Great work fella 🤣
Feel free to respond to my comments if you wanna argue against them. Not sure why you’re hiding over here lol.
Oh no, you found me! I wasn’t hiding good enough apparently. In fact I wasn’t hiding at all lol. I just commented unter a top level comment that seemed topical. Hiding would maybe be posting a screenshot somewhere else.
And no, I’m not going to argue. Arguments with tankies don’t really lead anywhere. See this as a win, I don’t care
Lot of people defending it though
“It’s not that bad 700 score is easy to get”
I defaulted on a loan and my credit score dropped down to 500. Still being chased by the debt collectors a year later and it’s gone back up to 700 by itself. I have no credit cards or anything. The whole thing is a joke.
I haven’t seen that online tbh
I’ve heard it enough in person
“Just do a bank credit program. You give them $500 you don’t have and…” Fuck off
That sounds more like people coping with the system than endorcing it. “It is what it is” of course is counterproductive to dismantling it.
What the fuck is this nonsense?
Nobody likes credit scores but it’s at least marginally financial measurements that are used for financial decisions.
It’s regressive, but only because our society is regressive. A middle class person who overspends and doesn’t pay their bills on time is probably gonna get treated worse than a poor person who needs groceries and fails to pay their grocery bills on time, yes. But it’s still financial.
The poor person isn’t being stopped from buying a train ticket. They might not have money to do so, but that’s a different societal fuck up.
At least compare apples to apples.
“It’s only financial I swear! Please don’t look up the countless studies on racial biases! Please!!”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_credit_scoring_systems_in_the_United_States#Racism
Yikes dude…
Societal outcomes are worse pretty much across the board for all of those groups. See my long middle paragraph about how our whole society is fucked up.
Every item listed on that page is a measurement indicating the end result which is inequality. Nothing on that page covers the why or the how. If Equifax is literally scoring people based on “how black a name sounds” (as with resume studies) then sure the actual scoring system is also broken. But it doesn’t say that, it says outcomes are worse and unequal. Just like every other outcome in this country.
Wow, you should have let those scientists know about that so they wouldn’t have wasted their time with these studies.
Great analysis dude.
I know you’re pissed at me but that was kinda weak. I don’t think there’s anything unreasonable about saying our society is fucked up but a very different style of fucked up vs china.
Especially considering that china sorta looked at the most fucked up parts of the credit score system and deliberately said “I want that, but more invasive and with the government running it” something like half a century later.
From what I’ve seen Dogbert is really obsessed with the Chinese state to the point of ignoring the fundamental structural issues it has. Is the Chinese state better for the average citizen than the US, probably in a lot of metrics, but as everywhere it is heavily dependent on who you are and where you live.
I’ve done some reflashing of cellular modems and the best place for open source modem firmware I found was some Chinese language hacker communities and they didn’t seem jazzed about the hoops they had to jump through to get to the clear net just to collaborate with the rest of the world. When information is restricted to that extent it is symptomatic of an extremely adversarial relationship between the government and its citizens.
What authoritarians of any stripe don’t realize that by abdicating their autonomy to any state, no matter the color of the flag or what ideology it espouses, ends in one way repression and death. If there is an out group there is a high likely hood that even a true believer will find themselves in it at some point. There is a tendency for authoritarian structures like states and corps to justify their existence through a progress at any cost mentality. This is true for western capitalism as well as Soviet and Chinese implementations of socialism. Any cost may be Lake Karachay’s ecosystem or the cultural extinction and enslavement of native people who live on land rich in rare earth minerals, it also means any citizen who becomes inconvenient to the state.
excellent write up! summarizes exactly how i feel and the issues i’ve had around here lately
You and I have disagreed on other things occasionally.
But a bunch of downvotes for someone pointing out the shitty idea behind credit scores, and an upvoted brand new account justifying them… how curious.
Two things can be bad at the same time.
Yes that seems to be the point of the post
Not if you look at OP’s other comments.
Nope, that’s literally the point of the post.
Social credit in China is […] Something that is a great benefit to their citizens.
Something someone who doesn’t condone a system apparently says. /s
Oh, then you’re just not very good at conveying that it seems
I didn’t make the meme believe it or not.
“I didn’t make it, I just posted it and added a comment and everyone is misinterpreting it and reading into it”
Cool story.
This thought-terminating cliche is getting so tired. You may as well just say “let’s just agree to disagree”.
It’s telling that this cliche is most often applied when western whataboutism is correctly called out, and all it does is serve to legitimize the act of manufacturing consent against China.
USA invents credit score way back in the 50s
credit score is immediately used to pull off the most calculatingly misogynistic, racist, and classist financial enforcement in modern history.
china implements a technically similar system that aims not to control working people’s financial agency, but to strengthen public trust.
the west immediately spins up the presses and releases dozens of hit pieces a year that manufacture consent against China by portraying the Chinese social credit system as an orwellian nightmare that will rip a child out of their parent’s home if the household spends too much time on videos games.
leftists identify this whataboutism and correctly call it out
liberals drop one of their various thought-terminating cliches to (not so) subtly bolster the western narrative - thus manufacturing consent against China.
You’ve been effortlessly oriented by the State Department and its various propaganda apparatus.
Could we stop saying “west” when you seem to mean commonwealth?
No because France, Portugal, Spain, The Netherlands, and Germany are all problematic in the same ways, as are their colonies, former colonies, contributions to the body of work (like racism), and collaboration with the problems of today (Third Reich, NATO, etc). We could even include more European nations in the list for these same reasons.
How is it thought terminating to consider two different things bad at the same time?
because you don’t actually consider them; you just assume they are
Not necessarily. You can consider two things and decide that none of them are good. You don’t know how much I considered both systems. You’re just guessing and are mad that I don’ share your opinion.
yeah, you’re right, i was assuming too :)
I really don’t know what you are trying to say here
Brother i don’t want to live in a country that scores my social media nor one that scores my credit. I have the right to not want either of those things
…
I’m still going to engage with you despite you not engaging with any part of my comment…
i don’t want to live in a country that scores [me]. I have the right to not want [that].
You sure do have that right. Your right to not want that is just dandy. However, Chinese people, by and large, do support their implementation of the social credit system. The Chinese people are developing their vision of socialism. For you to personally not like certain features of Chinese socialism is fine and dandy. But to condemn the Chinese for some aspect of their development of socialism that enjoys high support is chauvinistic of you.
Since when does having a “good behaviour score” have anything to do with socialism? Seriously wtf is this revisionism? It’s gotten so bad that so called “Marxists” accept any nonsense as long as it has a hammer and sickle on its flag.
What is wrong with you people? Does anyone even read anymore?
Oy, both of you are acting like the social credit score is real. It’s not. China implemented a social credit score for businesses based on how much harm they were doing to society and some provinces ran limited experiments with individuals years ago. It went very poorly and the government, being democratic, responded to the people and ended the pilots.
There’s another credit score that Alibaba offers which is opt-in only and it tracks your financial behavior (paying on time, paying back debts, not over borrowing in a short time period, etc) and it’s used to give financial incentives and discounts, but again is opt-in only.
You’re arguing the morality and alignment of something that only exists in Western propaganda. Read something, I am begging you.
If you believe China’s social credit system is a good way to “strengthen public trust” then I want to know how you feel about people like Xu Xiaodong, whose social credit was destroyed for exposing fake martial artists and refusing to apologize to them.
I like that you brought up an example that can be analyzed. The court ordered him to apologize and he didn’t follow through, there has to be some consequence to disobeying a judge. But it seems to me they could benefit from less hegemonic judges.
The Chinese government ended the pilot programs for social credit scores for individuals in 2019 because the Chinese people didn’t want it, so Xu Xiaodong is likely one of those examples where a local government running their implementation of the pilot overreached and the central government, responding to the will of the people, ended it.
You’ve been effortlessly oriented by the State Department and its various propaganda apparatus.
Can you explain to me, how I’m propagandized by a foreign government when I’m not cheering on the policies of their opponent?
I’m not taking any sides on this conflict, because it’s not my conflict. I’m a socialist… Let me assure you that my fundamental critique of the chinese state apparatus doesn’t really align too much with the US state propaganda.
That you critique China without researching it is aligned with the US State Dept. That you share lies about China (e.g. the social credit score) is aligned with the state department. That you don’t think there’s anything to discuss positively about the Chinese project aligns with the state department.
That you critique China without researching it
So not liking something from China automatically means I didn’t “research” it? Interesting. /s
That you share lies about China
Care to back up that bold claim?
That you don’t think there’s anything to discuss positively about the Chinese project aligns with the state department.
Sure you’re not talking about someone else?
You said “you don’t know how much I considerer both systems” in another comment.
That’s pretty much all the back up one needs.
The social credit system in China does not apply to individuals. It was originally designed for businesses. A limited pilot in certain locales was applied to individuals. That pilot program was shutdown in 2019.
So sure, go ahead and consider both systems that actually really exist. Go ahead and claim that both things can be bad. Keep on pretending!
That’s pretty much all the back up one needs.
If that’s all you need to accept a wild fucking guess: you do you.
Go ahead and claim that both things can be bad.
Cool, I will.
Keep on pretending!
… that two things can be bad at the same time? Are you claiming that I “pretend” that malaria and the flu are both bad and actually one of them is great?
oriented
I see what you did there.
The former is a voluntary system, the latter can make you homeless.
It doesn’t say it’s voluntary, it says there were voluntary pilot programs within the larger initiative, which, as far as I can tell, is not voluntary.
Also, there can be harsh penalties including being put on blacklists that prevent you from traveling or your children from receiving education.
Both are technocratic systems of control.
Fucking tankies man
I don’t get it either. The west is an imperialist death machine and capitalism is taking down the whole biosphere in its death throes. Instead of looking at China and seeing signs of the same authoritarian and imperialist cancer metastasizing in its government tankies stop at “they oppose the west” and give them a pass rather than realizing that their system is fundamentally compromised as well. If they believe a state is necessary to achieve what they consider true socialism then have some standards beyond “opposes the west” and stop hand waving the suicide nets at the Foxconn iPhone factory and the totally not concentration camps in Xinjiang. If anarchist theory involved caging people behind barbed wire, conducting mass censorship and surveillance, and allowing the existence of something so beyond the pale such as billionaires I would never have even considered it as an ideology much less a hill to die on.
signs of the same authoritarian and imperialist cancer
China accounts for 75% of poverty alleviation globally
China has not dropped any bomb in 36 years.
China invented the social credit system in response to dairy producers cutting corners and poisoning people. It was punishing profit seekers that harmed the people. It then ran a limited experiment with some local governments to apply it to people. It did not go well, and the democratic will of the people was that the program should end, so it did.
China’s opposition to the West is a bare minimum requirement. The alternative is an integration with the West that subordinates the needs of the people to the needs of the Western elite. It doesn’t stop there, but it’s a necessary prerequisite.
Once that bar has been cleared, the next problem becomes one of defending against Western interference. One cannot be materially opposed to the West and not materially capable of defending against the West. So the second bar is whether the nation is capable of defending against the West. China is clearing this bar as well, but it includes authoritarian behaviors in order to stop covet operations. There is currently no known way to stop covert ops without use of authority.
From there each individual thing you want to discuss needs to be discussed on detail, but the overall picture is one of separating from the imperialist cancer and maintaining that separation and an attempt to build a space for healthier growth for which there are no models and there are not successful experiments that can be drawn from, which means creating sufficient space for experimenting and that means sufficient space for doing it wrong, and likey doing it wrong more often than doing it right for a significant period of time. (Looking at Mao)
No, tankies don’t see the same imperial cancer because it clearly isn’t the same imperial cancer
i keep saying i want something fundamentally different not just aesthetically different. that tends to get me called “typical lib” even though i think the liberal project of capital is what got us here
It’s just brain-dead campism. Far from any proper application of Marxist theory. A lazy way of analyzing politics. It’s the same reason they support Russia even though they’re the same as the US
