You’re living overseas and enjoying life in a new country but then something happens in that country that changes everything. Not talking about war, but maybe a public debate, a new politician on the scene, a recession, or an election. Something that flipped how you see your new home. For better or worse.
For me, living in Malaysia all was going smoothly. An amazing country. But when COVID hit, non-Malaysians really became a target. You had vaccines prioritised for Malaysians and the government using the pandemic as an excuse to round up illegal migrants to deport them. Instilling more fear at a time of fear.
I think the fact that we can live in other countries and make a living as a non-citizen is actually a privilege. And it’s one of those privileges that can be withdrawn when push comes to shove.
I see it as two-way. I pay taxes here, spend my money here. The least I expect for this, is not to be downgraded or targeted when things get a little tough, or if some politician likes to ramp up the nationalist narrative to get elected - which results in me being heckled in the street when minding my own business. I respect all citizens of the countries I’ve worked in, and their culture and norms. But that doesn’t mean I accept being abused because of some anomaly.
Look at it this way. You’re a guest in someone’s house. It’s nice you contribute to utilities, but that doesn’t make you the owner or part of the family. And when there is conflict in the family, you’re the first one expected to leave the house.
Exactly. Countries spend a lot of money getting someone from birth to tax-paying employment. If you come in as a well-educated foreigner, you’re kind of a lucky catch. They don’t have to pay for your education, the first 20 years of your healthcare, they just get a whole readymade adult willing to work and pay taxes, plus they can withdraw your visa status if you do some sort of crime or become unemployed - they can’t do that with their own citizens. It’s basically the opposite of brain drain. Economically, educated expats are a great deal for a country.
You’ve paid taxes for a few years. The natives have done it their whole lives. Why would you expect to be their equal when it comes to getting those back? And why do you think going after people who’ve dodged every single checkpoint on their way in, broke the law to be there, is wrong, especially during a pandemic? People were having a hard time crossing borders legally, why would criminals be protected?
Short answer? Yes, I would. Legal migrants in my home country have as much right to health care as I would, and other social benefits. That goes from schooling to free access to museums. Equals.
Second point, I think if you’re trying to ensure a pandemic doesn’t spread, rounding up desperate people (who mostly flee persecution) to deport them, is going to make a bad situation worse. People will hide and won’t get vaccinated. Kinda obvious to me.
So, how do you distribute limited supplies exactly?
As opposed to how all the criminals are usually out in the open, just going to government facilities and saying “I broke the law, vaccinate me”? Do you also think drug dealers shouldn’t be persecuted, because then they will hide their income and not pay taxes? Or do you think most criminals break the law for shits and giggles while only the illegal immigrants do it out of desperation?
Limited supply of health care? Guess you judge which person needs the treatment most and judge it based on condition not passport. Also, there was a good supply of vaccines at this point. Final point, back then, there was a need to vaccinate all or it wouldn’t work as intended. You ignore sections of society - yes, even criminals - and you won’t achieve your pandemic goals.
I’m not sure we’re comparing like for like on drug dealers and migrants brought in legally to work on construction sites, and when nobody is allowed outside during COVID, they have no work and no income, and they’re then rounded up when their visa runs out and are penniless. OR, desperate illegal migrants fleeing genocide in neighbouring countries, who were given safehaven pre-pandemic, but then pursued during.
I’d argue that my country actually spent a shit ton subsidizing my education, and now I’ve brought my advanced post grad degree to their country where they get to benefit from my education without having had to best in ~20 years of costs to educate me.
Did you move for your host country’s benefit or for your own benefit?
That’s irrelevant. The only relevance is the cost-benefit analysis. It would cost them a lot of money to have someone educated to my level, and they don’t have to pay that. I cost their system very little and contribute a lot. They can drive me out, and it would cost them far more to replace me internally.
No, it’s not. Because your benefit is what underpins the system. Everyone in a society pays taxes, so that everyone in that society can benefit. How you choose to benefit is irrelevant. If you base it on cost-benefit analysis you’d have a really shitty situation as it wouldn’t only impact emigrants. What would happen to children who are deemed too expensive to support for the potential benefit they can bring in? Taxes, healthcare, etc. are not based on cost-benefit, they are a social system that expects everyone to contribute for the sake of the society. If you aren’t a part of that society and haven’t yet met the contribution threshold, you don’t get the same benefit as those who did. Your view is very classist, prioritising rich over poor.
You seem to have the political understanding of a 15 year-old who spends a lot of time online around right-leaning liberals who say things you think are logical.
No, you.
No they haven’t. Not for first 18ish years of their lives, where a huge chunk of government spending per citizen is frontloaded.
That’s when their parents were paying taxes. Where were your parents’ taxes going?
How is that relevant? If you think that the taxes that your parents have paid have covered 100% of your mother’s birthing ward, parents’ paternity leave, your healthcare as a child, all the steps of your education, etc etc, you’re living in la-la-land.
Because that’s how it works and why citizenship by blood is the default in most countries.
No, I live in a society. Part of it is that we take care of each other, no single person is expected to 100% pay for themselves, but everyone is expected to contribute based on their situation. It’s an agreement we’ve made long ago that extends to everyone our society is responsible for, regardless of their economic status. Just because you don’t like the agreements made by your society, doesn’t mean you are entitled to ours. Especially if you haven’t done your part to contribute. Once you have, you are often welcome to join in and benefit from it. If you choose not to, that’s also your right.
Your argument is “expats’ taxes do not contribute to society enough because natives have been paying taxes all their lives”. I’m saying that it is irrelevant, because expats have also not received a huge chunk of the benefits that natives receive. How your platitudes about living in a society are supposed to answer to that is beyond me.
And the start of the argument was where they are entitled to that “huge chink of benefits” before they have contributed what the society expects them to. OP was complaining that they pay taxes, but aren’t benefitting to the same extent as the natives. What you are saying is not a countetargument to my point, it’s a different phrasing.