They’re just an annoying bunch of wannabe communists who sound incredibly smug and post a ton of stickers in comments.
Having said that I’ve moved to lemm.ee when lemmy.world defeterated from hexbear.
There’s a lot to unpack in that one. First of all, how do you even gatekeep being a communist? Surely you don’t hold a degree in Marxist-Leninist thought? Nor are you a hexbear yourself.
Or perhaps since you have this perception that we are all petite bourgeoisie (mostly white) in the imperialist core that we can’t actually be communists (ignoring how paradoxical that is)
Perhaps communism in your mind is only for the “orient” and global south. Those in the “West” must just be play acting.
When you guys mention the imperial core, what are you talking about? DC? Hollywood? Wall Street? Brussels? London? Paris? Berlin? The Hague? Where is this imperial core you keep mentioning?
“imperial core” isn’t a phrase we made up. It refers to World Systems Theory, a theory of international relations invented by a guy named Immanuel Wallerstein which argues that imperial “Core” countries (think the traditional “developed” or “first world” countries. Mainly the US and Europe) have a particular extractive, colonial relationship with “Periphery” countries (think poor, raw material exporting, rentier states like Kyrgyzstan or Nigeria).
Then there are semi-periphery countries which are still tied into the imperial core in some way, but have enough sway economically and geopolitically to kind of stand on their own. They have a different kind of relationship to the imperial core, compared to the periphery (these would be the BRICS countries, largely).
That’s a gross over simplification, but hopefully that answers your question.
To be fair, colonialism is a human trait and it’s been proven in every large society time and time again. You think the current US/UK empire is bad but if you look in your own back yard it’s the same thing with a different spin.
It is inevitable, humans are destined for this. It’s unfortunate but it’s what we do.
Lmao no they’re not. Humans are a communal species, it’s literally what we’ve evolved to be.
However acting as if behavioral (or even worse evolutionary) psychology can in any way give a definite answer on what is human nature and what is learnt behaviour, is ridiculous.
There are no factual answers to the question “what is human nature?”
But that’s kind of my point. The CCP engages in almost identical policies and political strategy. It’s just under a different banner with a different mascot.
You think the current US/UK empire is bad but if you look in your own back yard it’s the same thing with a different spin.
I don’t think any non-Western country has enslaved a continent, refused to pay reparations for enslaving an entire continent, and continue to plunder an entire continent of its resources.
I’m going to make the bold claim that the Tang dynasty and the Achaemenid empire was nowhere near as bad as the Spanish empire or the British empire and unlike the first two, the second two are still relevant in modern times.
Do you seriously think Cambodia “enslaved a continent”? Like, I think Pol Pot was one of the more destructive leaders in human history, but you’re being silly.
Japan was working on it but only partially did it. China didn’t. Persia? uh . . . I don’t think so. Egypt? No. Spain was part of the overall effort that the US and UK were part of.
I genuinely would like to understand what you guys at hexbear are about but every time I poke my head into that instance you guys are “dunking” every other instance with language nobody else understands. It’s very alienating.
you guys are also like, just huge dicks without provocation. like all the fucken time. 99% of what i see from hexbear users is either condescension or outright hostility.
I see a reply to a post by a liberal stating a point which we regularly debunk
to help them see why they might be wrong, I politely, and in good faith, though often with a little force, push back on it and explain why they are incorrect
they then smugly and condenscendingly reply with a sentence like “Oh, so you’ve come along with your CCP/Kremlin propaganda now / Oh great, the Hexbear horde has arrived / Actually, it’s much more complicated than that [refuses to elaborate] / Actually, you’re wrong because of [link to wikipedia]”
we then start dunking given that they aren’t operating in good faith
perhaps reddit’s typical style of “debate”, where you smugly reply thought-terminating cliches and decontextualized quotes at each other while being variously awarded and downvoted, is more harmful and damaging to actual discussion than our style of “You’re wrong, here’s why you’re wrong with a bunch of references included, hell, most of them are to western media because if I don’t then you’ll start screeching ‘CHINESE CCP XI JINPING PROPAGANDA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH’ at us”
additionally, we have no downvotes, and haven’t for three years, because it just fosters anonymized disagreement and even harrassment without any constructive points being made. thousands upon thousands of times, I’ve seen arguments become people just saying quotes like “Well, communism works on paper but not in practice” and “If you sacrifice freedom for security then you deserve neither” or “Did you know that the Founding Fathers warned against parties?” and just a hundred other pseudo-points gathered from a lifetime of being exposed to various kinds of media and irl interactions, without even the slightest curiosity as to the underlying philosophies and ideas and complexities and nuances behind, say, what authoritarianism really means, or whether democracy is necessarily “when you have elections” or if there’s something deeper, or even just the basic histories of the USSR and China and Cuba etc. the average Westerner’s knowledge of anything beyond culture is as wide and deep as a puddle. I’ll even be a little self-depreciating and include myself in that, though I am actively working to improve.
no matter how often you remind people that downvotes should only be used for comments that don’t “contribute to the discussion”, no matter how good their intention, downvote systems online always devolve into “I dislike you and/or the point you’re making and I’m not going to explain why. fuck you.” disagreement on Hexbear can only be done through posting and replying, and sorting these things out through discussions (or “struggle sessions”) rather than building up silent resentments over time that split everybody up, and because of that, it’s by far the healthiest online community I’ve ever seen, and I’ve seen a lot. it’s also why we come across as overbearing - even if we had only a third of the members, the site culture of “if you disagree, reply and tell them, you can’t downvote” means that we’re all used to commenting a lot and could overwhelm other instances which are more used to downvote-and-move-on tactics.
honestly it’s a pretty friendly instance all told, we just have p strong feelings about politics and bigotry
and admittedly a lot of us have little patience for the worst among you bc we deal with that shit permeating society at every level on a constant basis
I see a lot of hexbear users be provocative, but I’ve yet to see it without reason. It’s in response to someone else acting in bad faith. When you see someone act rude, take a step back and consider why they are acting rude.
Not to say we don’t have users that are too quick on the draw of the ppb, but your website certainly has cantankerous assholes as well. Every site has.
Hexbear just has an incredibly low tolerance of debatebros, smuglords and bigotry, which I would say has fostered a site culture that allows for a wide variety of opinions to be shared, a deep analysis of current event and which is a safe space for LGBTQ+ members - our modteam is majority LGBTQ+.
Hexbear - “that’s true, I see how our culture can be hard to decipher”
Lemmylib - “you guys are huge dicks without provocation”
Hexbear - oh well fuck you then :)
Lemmylib - “see, so hostile!”
If we respond to people being needlessly aggro with quip derision it’s “so uncivil!”
If we respond to people in good faith by trying to explain our differing views it’s “wow im not going to read that!”
Honestly your best bet is probably to do some reading first, unfortunately. A lot of Hexbear dialect is that way because it’s tied to concepts that come from books and thinkers we’re broadly familiar with.
If you’re more into video stuff you could try this guy. I think he’s pretty approachable.
Actually if you went into the megathreads and asked most people would probably give you suggestions too. We are fiesty but in my experience we also like to be helpful to people with questions.
I’ll oversimplify a bit, but here you go. In economic terms, liberalism is a market oriented economy, and the current iteration of neoliberalism is marked by social welfare cuts and tax cuts for the rich with “trickle down” effect in mind (allegedly). That ideology is shared by both the democratic and republican parties. The difference between communists and liberals in the sense the word is most often used, is that economic approach, and from that perspective both liberals and conservatives are “liberal”.
Now the common use of the word is a bit different, but that’s almost exclusively US from what I can tell. Hexbear is also international though, and liberal is a common term for right wingers where I’m from for example.
Liberalism has a couple of different definitions. The one you’re thinking of is the one in US politics where “Liberal” is synonymous with "Left’. This isn’t how it’s being used here though.
Liberalism, as a broad ideological trend that came out of the enlightenment, contains within it, Conservatism. Conservatism was theorized by people like Edmund Burke who, seeing that the previous feudal hierarchy was dying off, sought to preserve it, at least as much as was possible, by accepting Liberal notions of property rights and capitalism.
So, instead of a social hierarchy being ordained by God, it’s decided by the market, and social conflict is meditated through the liberal, Lockean, Republic.
So when we call Trump a liberal, we mean it in this broad sense. He’s still a conservative, but conservatism is a subset of capital L Liberalism.
This is in contrast to Leftism, which also contains a lot of things within it, but breaks from a lot of the philosophical assumptions that undergird Liberalism.
Seriously though you are more than welcome to ask, I would recommend the news mega. If you ask questions in gold faith there’s a wealth of users willing to interact with you
To be clear in the dunking threads folks are not usually engaging in good faith with us. When I was on another server and replied with actual questions to stuff everyone was incredibly nice to me and explained stuff super well. Can agree though that folks can see dunking as alientating. I promise though if you can get past that it’s one of the friendliest communities I’ve found on the web.
The imperial core is the countries that have been most involved in the imperialist plunder of other nations, so that would be the US, Canada, UK, France, Belgium, Germany, etcetera
I love being wrong! It means I get to learn new things. I am for example happy to learn that we have a user here from either Belize, Guatemala, Haiti, Honduras, the Marshall Islands, Nauru, Palau, Paraguay, Saint Kitts and Nevis, Saint Lucia, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, or Tuvalu, since these are the only places that regonize Taiwan as a country.
I am very sorry to hear what climate change is doing to your wonderful island/country! I hope your government is working towards a good future.
Note that they said “Most involved” Russia, for instance, has always been the modern “Sick man of Europe” since the fall of the USSR. It’s imperial aspirations don’t extend as far. And it’s relationship to the historic Core of the US and Western Europe, is as a semi-peripheral nation trying to coalesce a regional sphere of influence with itself as the center of gravity. None of that makes it a Core country though.
Maybe if the current world system collapses, and it filled that vacuum. But that hasn’t happened.
Imperial Core refers to the World Systems Theory of International Relations, first put forward by Immanuel Wallerstien. I would suggest you read up on the topic before making half-baked responses like this.
You know how any time there’s a map where it colors countries who vote on UN resolutions, or countries where you can be thrown in jail for being poor, etc etc etc etc, you know how its usually a very similar map with US Europe and western allies on one side, and the entire rest of the world (the other 6.5 billion people) on the other?
Yeah, that teeny group that seems to always get its way controlling global politics is the imperial core.
Another user already explained world systems theory, but there’s also the school of global historical materialism, that analyses the relationship and structure of the imperial core/triad and the periphery/global south. Samir Amin was a leading figure in that, he also coined the term “Eurocentrism”. You can find quite a few recordings of his lectures for free on YouTube, or pirate his books (he’s dead now, so it’s not like he’d get the money anyways).
I’ve grown up under a communist government in a socialist republic. So while I have no degree in Marxism-Leninism, I can assure you that all of my schooling was infused with it. Same goes for most of popular culture.
I don’t despise communism, as is often the case with people like me, the idea is noble, if utopian. The ideology, like all ideologies, is scary for its intolerance and disregard of human nature. I will therefore gatekeep any pure ideolog, just to save my own faith in humanity.
I’ve grown up under a communist government in a socialist republic…
Huh? That’s a very roundabout way of describing a communist state. Where do you come from specifically? You can count communist states on your fingertips.
ideology, like all ideologies, is scary for its intolerance and disregard of human nature…
I don’t think that’s what the word “ideology” means. Also it’s dangerous and unproductive to off-handedly remark on “human nature.” It’s a bad faith psuedoscientific buzzword that’s rooted in uncontextualized historical analysis. Nothing happens in a vacuum.
I will therefore gatekeep any pure ideolog, just to save my own faith in humanity.
Again, I’m not quite sure what this means. I think you’re conflating a lot of things here that just don’t make sense and I dont want to make any assumptions about you. No community can ever be immune to reactionary politics, but thats not the same as rejecting “pure ideology”
If you put down the thesaurus and actually think about things you will perhaps start to understand.
I grew up in former Czechoslovakia until my adulthood under the rule of the communist party until we overthrew them in 1989. The effects of that time are still with me. The human nature that came to light during communist rule would make your hair stand on end. All in pursuit of ideology. You can’t comprehend what you’re advocating for further than some utopian theory you read.
My apologies, I was generalising. I’ve had perfectly normal interactions with hexbear users, but I also saw a bunch of very circlejerky threads populated by hexbear users which I found unbearable (or should it be unhexbearable?).
Thank you for your open minded approach. Obviously I don’t save posts or comments that annoy me, but now I see one of those as a response to my comment (large gif/jpg with no text). Earlier today I saw a post about brigading that was stupid, but I’m not throwing all hexbears into the same basket, a bunch of the comments were completely nuts. I couldn’t find it again, instead I found this one: https://hexbear.net/post/502637
Again, it’s not a crime, people can circlejerk however they want. What really annoys me is when I come across a post where I’m interested in reading people’s opinions one the subject and the comments are filled with stickers. Strangely enough no other community does that.
Drats! The one true leftist has figured out our ruse! For three whole years we’ve been meticulously crafting a safe space for queer and marginalized people to speak freely without condescension and infantilization from privileged folks, all as a bit, to eventually confuse users of a FOSS Reddit alternative. You got us. Pat yourself on the back. I can’t believe you figured it out.
Yeah, 4chan, known for being vehemently opposed to racism, sexism, homophobia, ableism, and all other forms of bigotry. You can tell we’re all 4chan users because of how we’re literally the opposite of 4chan users in basically every way.
Right, just like how the Nazis were really socialists because they had “socialist” in the name.
Your actions speak much louder than your words, and from what I’ve seen, you all love to spout facist and authoritarian ideals. Funny how you all bust out the concern trolling about minority groups and bigotry when called out on your actions, yet never defend these ideals in organic conversations where the topics actually come up.
we have been on this site for three years before federation with the same strict anti-bigotry culture since the beginning. I wish you guys could realize how fucking wild conspiracies like this sound like to us. Like we were only pretending to be gay marxists to ourselves for three years lmao
We’re 4chan trolls who have been running a running joke where we refuse to tolerate racism, misogyny, transphobia. We did it all in isolation for 3 years, so we could show up here, requiring lots of actual development work to re-merge and federate, as a bit.
This is what liberals need to believe to continue daily life free of mental interruptions.
And it would be so much easier to not give a shit about any of that. You really don’t get anything for standing up for the powerless (aside from the fact that our trans posters are among the most powerful ever known).
yet never defend these ideals in organic conversations where the topics actually come up.
Because we definitely don’t have multiple different queer communities with >3 years of posts in them and a weekly queer specific megathread every week for 3 years and we definitely didn’t recently onboard r/traaa too and we definitely don’t have a modteam that is over 50% trans and enby,
Right, just like how the Nazis were really socialists because they had “socialist” in the name.
The whole thing about that was that the Nazis didn’t do anything socialist, and in fact the term privatization was invested to describe their economic policies. Hexbear acts against LGBT hate, racism, ableism, etc., so this analogy is a non-starter.
It’s literally the only place on the internet that I, as a Trans woman, feel completely safe. The ONLY people who I know 100% will go to bat for me even when it is inconvenient.
we are about as far from 4chan as you can get, we’re just rude to losers like you who equate queer liberationist leftists with incel pedophile racists on 4chan
Go fuck yourself!
(P.S. This is why we’re rude sometimes, absolutely go and fuck yourself)
How are we like 4chan users? We filter slurs and ban users who try to engage in hate speech. We offer content/NSFW warnings. We don’t doxx or send death threats and ban those who try.
I want to know why you looked at Hexbear and saw 4chan.
I don’t say people trying to associate Hexbear and 4chan are fed posters, but I say that if I were a I would certainly try to make that association popular.
Oh, full stop. I was just hoping I could get an answer about what they dislike about 4chan to use it as an insult against us. Because right now, it just seems like the tone. Not any of the other fucked up things on that image board.
I’ve never used that website, I’d imagine most hexbear users haven’t. We’re actually reddit refugees from 3 years ago, thank you very much 😤.
Not like that’s much better lol.
There’s no cosplay here, I can promise you that. I’m bi and communist, don’t know about other users. I know we have a sizeable amount of trans users as well. Pretty sure none of us are cosplaying as left of LGBT.
I never used Reddit, I never listened to the podcast. I came here from a discord server lol. I’m basically without original sin here. I’m the perfect leftist.
You got us, all of our theory reading groups, real life mutual aid, and threads about loving our trans comrades have all been part of an elaborate 3-year long running gag to trick you, the main character.
I’m saying that all of your theory reading groups, real life mutual aid, and threads about loving your trans comrades are entirely insignificant in precipitating a communist society. Your behavior on Lemmy is actively pushing people away from communism as an ideology, and thus I question whether your users are truly committed to aiding the proletariat in their struggle.
“Noo you can’t just be mean to bigots, you’re pushing people away from communism, noo why are you standing up for maligned and beseiged socialist countries, Marx would be ashamed of youu ”
Sure. The people who you are childishly attacking comprise the audience that you have been provided to spread your leftist ideals and accomplish your purported communist objectives. But instead of evangelizing, you choose to resort to mockery and snickering inside jokes, thereby ensuring that your isolated community never gains enough relevance to effect real change. It’s amazing to me that I have to spell this out for you, you should be abundantly aware after being defederated by the vast majority of other servers.
Your entire shtick is a self-congratulatory circlejerk just for being on team “We Hate America”. That’s not communism, it’s teenage angst.
What? No one on Hexbear is on it because we think we’re going to “effect real change” on here lol
Maybe you forget how isolated lemmy is in general. Even if we wanted to do that it’s not even possible. This is just our comfortable space in an ocean of online liberalism. We’re happy to discuss politics with people in good faith and it’s great if we can help educate people but pretty much everything important happens in real life, offline. So don’t act surprised when you’re met with mockery because you’ve accused us of betraying communism for not letting the bigots, transphobes, reactionaries, and libs talk down to us and insult us on the Internet in some naive attempt to “convert” them.
Also, we get along fine with most of the fediverse! I’m glad we’re still connected to lemmy.ml, lemm.ee, sdf, etc even though there can be a few bad actors. I’m not sure federating with your instance was a good idea though…
Fair enough. I think you’re delusional if you believe that your users are accomplishing anything important in real life, due to their terminally online status and lack of social graces, but sure.
It’s amazing to me that you don’t recognize that the internet has become the most powerful tool for social control in human history, and any attempt to counter the prevailing narrative will inevitably have to incorporate a digital component in order to succeed. But sure, Lemmy is just where you take out your frustrations on the libs after a hard day’s work ineffectively unionizing and canvassing for irrelevant leftist politicians. Good luck with that, you’re really making a difference 👏
Comments like this have really shown me that liberals don’t actually care about beliefs at all (hexbear having diametrically opposed beliefs to 4chan). They only care about tone.
Why yes, groups of people who act like a bunch of dogpiling 4chan trolls typically don’t have their beliefs respected or acknowledged. Tone is important. Glad we could help you come to that realization.
Understood. And I know there are groups on pretty much every instance that ruin things for everyone else. I don’t want to judge any full instance from the actions of a minority.
Lots of tankies from what I’m seeing, they’re the “alt-left” if you will, they believe in just as much weird stuff as the alt-right but are on the left side of the spectrum… Heck they end up meeting on many things…
Could you provide an example of Hexbears agreeing with the alt-right about something specific? I think a lot of people conflate “disagreeing with the liberal consensus” with “thinking a MAGA thing” when they’re really pretty different.
wikileaks published a private diplomatic cable stating that no one was killed in the square itself, although a smaller number of people did die in clashes elsewhere in Beijing, consistent with China’s own official account. (Here’s a Telegraph article on the cables).
tank man: the tanks in the video are leaving the square (you can see this in the uncropped footage) and it is broad daylight, whereas the main violence occurred at night.
the violence against troops was uncharacteristic of the previous tone of interactions between troops and protesters in the preceding weeks. Troops and protesters had peacefully coexisted, singing songs and sharing food together. (Here’s an article that goes into it a bit)
When being “not pro west” means not analyzing the conflict but simply adopting the same point of view as Russian propaganda just because Ukraine is supported by the west then yeah, you’re pro Russia.
What are you talking about? We have a huge incredibly active news mega that does analysis daily. The fact that we are as sceptical of western media as we are of russian is a good thing. You shouldn’t just uncritically swallow state department propaganda. You should investigate claims made, instead of just accepting them.
Why can’t you see the difference? We see the west and Nato as having propagated and profited off of this conflict. Russia is guilty as well as Ukraine in fanning the flames of war. But peace is a far better alternative to war and far better than flooding the area with weapons. Weapons that will continue to do damage long after hostility ends. Pro Russia How?
When being “not pro west” means not analyzing the conflict
Just like you analyzed our news megathreads from the last year to make this assessment?
It just fucking baffles me how people from other instances feel so comfortable talking shit straight from their ass. I just don’t understand the mentality. It’s fucking slimy. You can just do that shit and you don’t feel dirty?
In my experience alt right folks are pretty anti China, to the point where that is often the reason they oppose the Ukraine war, as it is dividing the attention of the Christian west from the rising, menacing Tigers that threaten white society.
Hexbears are often skeptical of Adrian Zenz who is usually the source of claims about China. Most that I’ve seen acknowledge that there are camps (China openly says it is running programs to deradicalize separatists and fundamentalists in the region), but disagree that they are as bad as western media depicts them, and would probably argue that western nations are concern trolling about the issue regardless because it is easy to question whether American foreign policy is motivated by concern for Muslims. Genuinely curious, who is an alt-right guy who doesn’t think there are camps in Xinjiang? I’ve never encountered a pro-Chinese reactionary.
As to Korea I thought MAGA types just memed about Kim Jong Un because Trump sort of got along with him. Hexbears think that the Korean War was bad and that Korea is acting predictably given that a nuclear power is constantly threatening them with annihilation. There are a variety of positions in Hexbear on the DPRK though, and I can’t really account for all of them, but I think they arise out of a genuine anti-imperial and anti-war sentiment, and a healthy doze of skepticism of western narratives of a state enemy. I don’t think you could say that for the alt right.
Last I checked the alt right believes them same claims about the world that dems do in terms of the supposed camps, they just think they are good because the alt right hates muslims
While I think nay accusation of genocide should be taken seriously and investigated, I do not think we should accept these claims without basis, and we have to accept that despite several years of allegations, no proof has been provided. Both the US state department and the CIA have had to acknowledge that there is no genocide going on in Xinjiang. Here’s a carrd with mainly Western sources debunking the claims of genocide https://xinjiangahr.carrd.co/
Both the US state department and the CIA have had to acknowledge that there is no genocide going on in Xinjiang
That’s very misleading. They say they have insufficient proof to say it is racially motivated. (Which is a prerequisite for genocide) But there is certainly great oppression happening there.
Both organisations have acknowledged that there is at the worst a cultural genocide going on - ie. An erasure of culture.
One can wonder how such a genocide is carried out, when the Uyghur language is still taught, Uyghur culture and language is still freely distributed and promoted and Uyghur people are a prominent part of the Chinese popular culture.
Your claim leads me to believe you did not engage with the sources provided to you.
Why are you linking an actual propaganda thinktank as an example as of Uyghur Genocide?
You could link any source, but you link one that is staffed by people who’s careers have been purely to lie about American’s enemies and push American interests?? I hope you’re a little sharper than that and you’re just linking that because you hope other people will swallow anything.
“HEY GUYS THIS ORGANIZATION THAT IS PAID TO TELL ME THAT CHINA IS BAD, GET THIS, SAYS CHINA IS BAD!!”
Being pro Russia, genocide denialism, authoritarianism, being hateful of ideas that don’t conform to their worldview, racism (just not towards the same people), the list goes on and on.
Being anti-nato does not mean we are pro-russia.
Specifically which genocide is being denied?
Define “authoritarianism”.
Yes we are hateful towards racism, sexism, ableism, transphobia, homophobia and fascism.
What racism is being done by hexbear users? The mod team takes such things very seriously
Hey, I’m a Hexbear user and I really think you have the wrong impression of what our site is. Idk if you’re open to reconsidering or if you’re just trying to get a few antagonistic words in but I’ll tell you my experience as a long time user:
Being pro Russia
Our site isn’t pro-russia. We just want the war to come to a swift end without any further bloodshed. Some people take offense to that because we don’t think the best way to do that is to send more guns, tanks, planes, dollars, etc into the warzone. That benefits no one except the arms manufacturers and the money lenders. Not regular people on either side.
genocide denialism
The only thing I can think of that you would be referring to is the “holodomor” or something similar that happened in the USSR. It’s not that we deny that many people did die in these horrible tragedies or that there wasn’t Soviet government involvement in some of them but that these very real events are being distorted for political reasons by people who want to paint the USSR in a certain, wholly bad, light. As communists (or anarchists), we try to be very open to criticism and new ways of thinking about or doing things but not when the intent is to do historical revisionism to make the people who liberated the concentration camps and ended the crimes of Nazism seem like Nazis under a different name.
Authoritarianism
Well, I guess this is true in a way. As revolutionists, we do seek to change the system by establishing a new authority with the capability to make this change. But have you ever noticed how the current system maintains and perpetuates itself? Sure, you can vote (and we don’t seek to abolish that!), but when that fails and working-class people take to the streets seeking change, why is it that people with guns and tear gas and riot shields try to stop them and maybe even imprison them? It’s not that leftists are uniquely “authoritarian” but that we want to use that authority for representing regular, working-class people and to bring about a better world where that authority isn’t necessary anymore. Our anarchist users probably have a somewhat different take on this but one of them will have to talk about it lol
being hateful of ideas that don’t conform to their worldview
Sure, there are a lot of ideas that we hate. But isn’t that everyone? I hope we could all agree on hating things like fascism, racism, sexism, transphobia, etc etc. Our users probably feel more strongly about that than most people lol but that’s just cuz a lot of us have been targets of those kinds of ideas. Other than stuff like that though… this site has been one of the most accepting places on the Internet in my experience. Sure, we argue a lot (sometimes too zealously lol), but just cuz we care a lot about getting things right. On our site, we don’t have downvotes to encourage users to actually challenge bad ideas and voice their opinion instead of just feeling satisfied having slightly influenced an algorithm.
racism (just not towards the same people)
This just hasn’t been my experience and I know most of our users would agree. Racism gets swiftly removed on Hexbear and lots of people replying challenging it. Do you have any examples? This has just been so contrary to my time on the site. Unless you mean jokes about white people but I hope I don’t have to explain why that’s not a problem lol
Anyway, I just want our instances and our users to exist together in peace. I know we have very “different” ideas from what is considered the mainstream in the west and on most of the English-speaking internet but I know our presence on the “fediverse” can be a positive thing and that we can get along. I hope this helps you to understand our site a bit better.
The whole “we want to end the war” argument just reeks. It stinks of russian propaganda. Russia started the war. They invaded Ukraine. Would you have the same viewpoint if the US was the invader? I’ve seen that comment several times and it kinda starts sounding like a red fascist dogwhistle
Do you think “anti-white racism” is even remotely as bad as other forms of racism? Or even a problem at all? White people already have all the privileges bestowed upon them by a fundamentally white-supremacist society. Making fun of this concept on our tiny social media website isn’t hurting anyone.
Do you think “anti-white racism” is even remotely as bad as other forms of racism?
In the vast majority of cases, no, not even close.
Or even a problem at all?
It’s 100% a problem, for multiple reasons. First and foremost, it’s racist, so it’s already inherently a problem for that reason alone. But it’s also a problem because your [hexbear’s] moralistic self-righteousness combined with your [hexbear’s] obvious hypocrisy gives people opposed to your ideals that much more ammunition (and of course you don’t care about that, but that itself is also part of the hexbear problem).
And the worst part is that, as with so many of hexbear’s problems, there’s no reason for it. It’s such an easy problem to fix, and would give an instance like hexbear that supposedly prides itself on its inclusivity such a huge boost in credibility. If you want to set yourselves up as morally unimpeachable, then be morally unimpeachable! Set an actual example, and be leaders that bring people together, not because of compromising your beliefs, but by actually being consistent, steadfast, and intellectually honest about the beliefs you already have.
And sure, I get the importance of having a place where you can feel comfortable and meme hyperbolically about problems you feel are important, and about the people who don’t agree with you. That seems to be the direction that most hexbears seem to want to go.
But, in the end, it is racist, and it is disingenuous to promote yourselves as this bastion of anti-racism while encouraging literal racism on your instance and then act all surprised pikachu face when you get called out on it.
It’s 100% a problem, for multiple reasons. First and foremost, it’s racist, so it’s already inherently a problem for that reason alone.
Nothing is “inherently” anything. What makes, for example, anti-black (as contrary to anti-white) racism bad in spaces like this? It furthers the psychological harm caused by the racist material conditions of white-supremacist society and normalizes these conditions. Racist rhetoric is part of the superstructural justification for these conditions that makes the oppressor feel superior and the oppressed feel inferior and like they deserve it. This contradiction does not exist for white people and that is why anti-white racism effectively does not exist, except maybe beyond a limited level in inter-personal relationships. It might make individual white people feel a little bad but it has no material backing.
But it’s also a problem because your [hexbear’s] moralistic self-righteousness
I’m not the one pearl-clutching over anti-white racism.
combined with your [hexbear’s] obvious hypocrisy gives people opposed to your ideals that much more ammunition (and of course you don’t care about that, but that itself is also part of the hexbear problem).
This issue doesn’t really give anyone “more ammunition” against us. Part of the reason we do keep these kinds of jokes around (besides being funny) is because it tends to out reactionaries (like how you are being right now).
And the worst part is that, as with so many of hexbear’s problems, there’s no reason for it. It’s such an easy problem to fix, and would give an instance like hexbear that supposedly prides itself on its inclusivity such a huge boost in credibility.
I’m pretty sure most of the people making “cracker” jokes on here are white themselves. I don’t think Hexbear is known as the “anti-white” instance lol
And sure, I get the importance of having a place where you can feel comfortable and meme hyperbolically about problems you feel are important, and about the people who don’t agree with you. That seems to be the direction that most hexbears seem to want to go.
Yeah, I mean that’s pretty much what Hexbear is. I don’t think anyone here would want to be “morally-unimpeachable leaders” or even to what end that would be.
No one here is pro Russia lol. We just recognize that the war in Ukraine is an intractable meat grinder, and working for peace is more productive than continuing the conflict in an effort to further enrich War Contractors.
If you’re familiar with CTH and the dirtbag left, Hexbear is where they went after being banned by Reddit.
For what it is when lemm.ee considered de-federated from them they flooded the instance turning a 200 comment thread into 1200. And lots of harassment. Edit: In case you wanted to read that clusterbomb of a thread: https://lemm.ee/post/4543536
I had some conversations here. They were saying that north Korea is a lovely democracy, Russia is totally justified in Ukraine, and China isn’t doing anything to the Uyghurs in Xinjiang. Just some examples from yesterday.
The website is a collection of sources with links gathered by a hexbear user because we got sick of having to do this song and dance every time. You can literally go interact with each link and each source individually - they all state where each claim comes from
Hmm, looks like the response to the un report is some guy on Twitter. And he seems to mostly handwave a ton of eyewitness testimony and investigations because they’re from western governments.
You mean the dude pointing out how there’s no first hand sources, the report is making use of unofficial translations and the report is in part based on observations made by the us army? Seems like a bit more than just “handwaving” eyewitness testimony to me.
What do you mean no first hand sources? I thought those were the the eyewitness that he dismissed because some of them hadn’t talked to people about their traumatic experiences before talking to the UN.
I’m not bothered by the translations. An office translation would need to be by China, right? So they’d have a motive to mistranslate to downplay what they’re doing. As long as the original documents as well as the translations are available, it should be easy enough to check the translation accuracy.
I went into the thread. You defended Nazis and argued that it makes sense that the FRG (west Germany) had so many Nazis in control of the government, police, judicative, and companies. While there were alternatives (believe me as someone living in Germany and having informed myself about that I know it). You also moved your goal posts and tried to diminish influences of other states i.e. the US (which you nationalist rise above others). All in all you would be okay in the instance, but get back lash when you kept up the way to jump from one to the other.
That you try to ignore those actions and the responses to your comments fits that lemmy users arguing against hexbear are deflecting heavily from their own responsibility and their own actions.
Your points in regards to both Russia&Ukraine are also not true (else you would directly link to it, and then there is no consensus in the hexbear userbase neither) and liking the CFR article is also not showing anything about hexbear (who - if you do search for it - are actually linking the UN report as well as the Chinese answer in regards to the Uigurs in their threads and comments about it).
They’re coming here. They’ve all got their pronouns after their names, (which is actually a great idea) so it’s a little easier to tell them apart. I’ve got a useless thread with a few in memes@lemmy.ml right now.
It’s frustrating, because I have pronouns after my name and I dislike hexbear… a lot. It is a good idea to have users give pronouns and automatically attach it.
Their behaviour has made me constantly check if people with pronouns after their names are part of hexbear before engaging in any threads, because of the stress of dealing with them :/, sometimes I do engage anyway and immediately regret it /shrug
It is depressing, because normally using pronouns like this indicates trans supportiveness so I feel better about conversing with people with them on their names. Hexbear has ruined this because of their behaviour around all other topics and sometimes trans topics.
Just hope Jerboa gets instance-blocking features soon ;p, then I can block them on both my lemmy accounts .
I appear to be out of the loop. What’s wrong with hexbear? I’m not familiar with the instance.
They’re just an annoying bunch of wannabe communists who sound incredibly smug and post a ton of stickers in comments. Having said that I’ve moved to lemm.ee when lemmy.world defeterated from hexbear.
There’s a lot to unpack in that one. First of all, how do you even gatekeep being a communist? Surely you don’t hold a degree in Marxist-Leninist thought? Nor are you a hexbear yourself.
Or perhaps since you have this perception that we are all petite bourgeoisie (mostly white) in the imperialist core that we can’t actually be communists (ignoring how paradoxical that is)
Perhaps communism in your mind is only for the “orient” and global south. Those in the “West” must just be play acting.
When you guys mention the imperial core, what are you talking about? DC? Hollywood? Wall Street? Brussels? London? Paris? Berlin? The Hague? Where is this imperial core you keep mentioning?
“imperial core” isn’t a phrase we made up. It refers to World Systems Theory, a theory of international relations invented by a guy named Immanuel Wallerstein which argues that imperial “Core” countries (think the traditional “developed” or “first world” countries. Mainly the US and Europe) have a particular extractive, colonial relationship with “Periphery” countries (think poor, raw material exporting, rentier states like Kyrgyzstan or Nigeria).
Then there are semi-periphery countries which are still tied into the imperial core in some way, but have enough sway economically and geopolitically to kind of stand on their own. They have a different kind of relationship to the imperial core, compared to the periphery (these would be the BRICS countries, largely).
That’s a gross over simplification, but hopefully that answers your question.
Edit: Here’s a really good explanation of World Systems Theory that goes into more depth
Wasn’t aware of this framework, thank you for taking the time to explain it :)
No problem!
Thanks for engaging in gold faith!
To be fair, colonialism is a human trait and it’s been proven in every large society time and time again. You think the current US/UK empire is bad but if you look in your own back yard it’s the same thing with a different spin.
It is inevitable, humans are destined for this. It’s unfortunate but it’s what we do.
That’s just the propaganda you’ve been fed. The world doesn’t need to be xenophobic or exploitative. These are learnt behaviors.
No man these are facts. Proven, hard irrefutable facts.
Lmao no they’re not. Humans are a communal species, it’s literally what we’ve evolved to be.
However acting as if behavioral (or even worse evolutionary) psychology can in any way give a definite answer on what is human nature and what is learnt behaviour, is ridiculous.
There are no factual answers to the question “what is human nature?”
Just because you’re a terrible person doesn’t mean everyone else is.
yeah but the thing is other countries’ policies didn’t inspire apartied and the nazis and their holocaust.
the US’s exterminationist and segregationalist The US did those thing
Hitler wrote in his diary how good america was at genociding its undesireables, and took it and ran with it
The United States: world leader in being the absolute fucking worst thing in human history since 1619
But that’s kind of my point. The CCP engages in almost identical policies and political strategy. It’s just under a different banner with a different mascot.
Absolutely fucking wild to go yeah the US Inspired the nazis and aparteid and segregation, but china has the belt and road so its basically the same
The fuck?!
I don’t think any non-Western country has enslaved a continent, refused to pay reparations for enslaving an entire continent, and continue to plunder an entire continent of its resources.
Japan, China, Persian empire, Egypt, Spain, US, UK, Cambodia, et al.
History is nasty, our goal should be to learn from it and not repeat it.
I’m going to make the bold claim that the Tang dynasty and the Achaemenid empire was nowhere near as bad as the Spanish empire or the British empire and unlike the first two, the second two are still relevant in modern times.
Do you seriously think Cambodia “enslaved a continent”? Like, I think Pol Pot was one of the more destructive leaders in human history, but you’re being silly.
Japan was working on it but only partially did it. China didn’t. Persia? uh . . . I don’t think so. Egypt? No. Spain was part of the overall effort that the US and UK were part of.
It’s another term for ‘the West’ effectively, so the US and Western Europe.
I genuinely would like to understand what you guys at hexbear are about but every time I poke my head into that instance you guys are “dunking” every other instance with language nobody else understands. It’s very alienating.
Lol that’s fair. We’ve developed a pretty insular culture over the past three years and I can see how it’s hard to decipher.
you guys are also like, just huge dicks without provocation. like all the fucken time. 99% of what i see from hexbear users is either condescension or outright hostility.
usually how conversations go is this
I see a reply to a post by a liberal stating a point which we regularly debunk
to help them see why they might be wrong, I politely, and in good faith, though often with a little force, push back on it and explain why they are incorrect
they then smugly and condenscendingly reply with a sentence like “Oh, so you’ve come along with your CCP/Kremlin propaganda now / Oh great, the Hexbear horde has arrived / Actually, it’s much more complicated than that [refuses to elaborate] / Actually, you’re wrong because of [link to wikipedia]”
we then start dunking given that they aren’t operating in good faith
perhaps reddit’s typical style of “debate”, where you smugly reply thought-terminating cliches and decontextualized quotes at each other while being variously awarded and downvoted, is more harmful and damaging to actual discussion than our style of “You’re wrong, here’s why you’re wrong with a bunch of references included, hell, most of them are to western media because if I don’t then you’ll start screeching ‘CHINESE CCP XI JINPING PROPAGANDA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH’ at us”
additionally, we have no downvotes, and haven’t for three years, because it just fosters anonymized disagreement and even harrassment without any constructive points being made. thousands upon thousands of times, I’ve seen arguments become people just saying quotes like “Well, communism works on paper but not in practice” and “If you sacrifice freedom for security then you deserve neither” or “Did you know that the Founding Fathers warned against parties?” and just a hundred other pseudo-points gathered from a lifetime of being exposed to various kinds of media and irl interactions, without even the slightest curiosity as to the underlying philosophies and ideas and complexities and nuances behind, say, what authoritarianism really means, or whether democracy is necessarily “when you have elections” or if there’s something deeper, or even just the basic histories of the USSR and China and Cuba etc. the average Westerner’s knowledge of anything beyond culture is as wide and deep as a puddle. I’ll even be a little self-depreciating and include myself in that, though I am actively working to improve.
no matter how often you remind people that downvotes should only be used for comments that don’t “contribute to the discussion”, no matter how good their intention, downvote systems online always devolve into “I dislike you and/or the point you’re making and I’m not going to explain why. fuck you.” disagreement on Hexbear can only be done through posting and replying, and sorting these things out through discussions (or “struggle sessions”) rather than building up silent resentments over time that split everybody up, and because of that, it’s by far the healthiest online community I’ve ever seen, and I’ve seen a lot. it’s also why we come across as overbearing - even if we had only a third of the members, the site culture of “if you disagree, reply and tell them, you can’t downvote” means that we’re all used to commenting a lot and could overwhelm other instances which are more used to downvote-and-move-on tactics.
honestly it’s a pretty friendly instance all told, we just have p strong feelings about politics and bigotry
and admittedly a lot of us have little patience for the worst among you bc we deal with that shit permeating society at every level on a constant basis
I see a lot of hexbear users be provocative, but I’ve yet to see it without reason. It’s in response to someone else acting in bad faith. When you see someone act rude, take a step back and consider why they are acting rude.
Not to say we don’t have users that are too quick on the draw of the ppb, but your website certainly has cantankerous assholes as well. Every site has.
Hexbear just has an incredibly low tolerance of debatebros, smuglords and bigotry, which I would say has fostered a site culture that allows for a wide variety of opinions to be shared, a deep analysis of current event and which is a safe space for LGBTQ+ members - our modteam is majority LGBTQ+.
Hexbear - “that’s true, I see how our culture can be hard to decipher”
Lemmylib - “you guys are huge dicks without provocation”
Hexbear - oh well fuck you then :)
Lemmylib - “see, so hostile!”
If we respond to people being needlessly aggro with quip derision it’s “so uncivil!” If we respond to people in good faith by trying to explain our differing views it’s “wow im not going to read that!”
So what should we do?
You have a very strange idea of “without provocation”
Honestly your best bet is probably to do some reading first, unfortunately. A lot of Hexbear dialect is that way because it’s tied to concepts that come from books and thinkers we’re broadly familiar with.
If you’re more into video stuff you could try this guy. I think he’s pretty approachable.
Actually if you went into the megathreads and asked most people would probably give you suggestions too. We are fiesty but in my experience we also like to be helpful to people with questions.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s): https://piped.video/channel/UCGog4JPn5-W3_XIKccENysg
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source, check me out at GitHub.
We’re literally just communists. Read any introductory text to communism and 99% of what we say will make sense in context.
“Donald Trump is a liberal”
Break this down.
I’ll oversimplify a bit, but here you go. In economic terms, liberalism is a market oriented economy, and the current iteration of neoliberalism is marked by social welfare cuts and tax cuts for the rich with “trickle down” effect in mind (allegedly). That ideology is shared by both the democratic and republican parties. The difference between communists and liberals in the sense the word is most often used, is that economic approach, and from that perspective both liberals and conservatives are “liberal”.
Now the common use of the word is a bit different, but that’s almost exclusively US from what I can tell. Hexbear is also international though, and liberal is a common term for right wingers where I’m from for example.
Hope I could help.
Liberalism has a couple of different definitions. The one you’re thinking of is the one in US politics where “Liberal” is synonymous with "Left’. This isn’t how it’s being used here though.
Liberalism, as a broad ideological trend that came out of the enlightenment, contains within it, Conservatism. Conservatism was theorized by people like Edmund Burke who, seeing that the previous feudal hierarchy was dying off, sought to preserve it, at least as much as was possible, by accepting Liberal notions of property rights and capitalism.
So, instead of a social hierarchy being ordained by God, it’s decided by the market, and social conflict is meditated through the liberal, Lockean, Republic.
So when we call Trump a liberal, we mean it in this broad sense. He’s still a conservative, but conservatism is a subset of capital L Liberalism.
This is in contrast to Leftism, which also contains a lot of things within it, but breaks from a lot of the philosophical assumptions that undergird Liberalism.
liberalism is the ideology of capitalism. donald trump is a capitalist. donald trump is a liberal. easy.
Is there anything confusing about that statement?
Well, I’d be more than happy to have a good faith discussion with you. No dunking, I promise 🙏
You’ve caught me going into a busy Labor Day weekend but sure, I’ll think up some questions to ask.
If you ask good faith questions and give context for why “Hey, I’m a liberal and I don’t understand X could you explain what you mean?”
You WILL get excellent engagement and people will give you very good answers
its easy, and if you genuinely want to learn give it a shot
New tagline dropped @CARCOSA@hexbear.net
Seriously though you are more than welcome to ask, I would recommend the news mega. If you ask questions in gold faith there’s a wealth of users willing to interact with you
To be clear in the dunking threads folks are not usually engaging in good faith with us. When I was on another server and replied with actual questions to stuff everyone was incredibly nice to me and explained stuff super well. Can agree though that folks can see dunking as alientating. I promise though if you can get past that it’s one of the friendliest communities I’ve found on the web.
The imperial core is the countries that have been most involved in the imperialist plunder of other nations, so that would be the US, Canada, UK, France, Belgium, Germany, etcetera
Don’t forget China, Tibet?
Tibet was an oppressive theocratic slave society whose people China liberated.
Woo boy provide me a source for this one
Serfdom in Tibet controversy - Wikipedia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serfdom_in_Tibet_controversy
Here is a very both sides wiki article to start with. You can see the weakness in the argument in the defense of Tibet as they’re semantic arguments.
https://redsails.org/friendly-feudalism/
several Content Warnings in the essay
China (see taiwan, tibet)
Russia (see crimea/ukraine)
Wow you just got dunked on.
Seethe
Tibet was a theocratic slave state before being liberated.
Neither the UN, the EUs member nations, the US or Taiwan thinks Taiwan is a country.
It’s okay to be wrong, Taiwan is a beautiful country. Sorry if that makes you upset.
I love being wrong! It means I get to learn new things. I am for example happy to learn that we have a user here from either Belize, Guatemala, Haiti, Honduras, the Marshall Islands, Nauru, Palau, Paraguay, Saint Kitts and Nevis, Saint Lucia, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, or Tuvalu, since these are the only places that regonize Taiwan as a country.
I am very sorry to hear what climate change is doing to your wonderful island/country! I hope your government is working towards a good future.
Taiwan doesn’t recognise Taiwanese independence. Let that sink in.
Note that they said “Most involved” Russia, for instance, has always been the modern “Sick man of Europe” since the fall of the USSR. It’s imperial aspirations don’t extend as far. And it’s relationship to the historic Core of the US and Western Europe, is as a semi-peripheral nation trying to coalesce a regional sphere of influence with itself as the center of gravity. None of that makes it a Core country though.
Maybe if the current world system collapses, and it filled that vacuum. But that hasn’t happened.
Imperial Core refers to the World Systems Theory of International Relations, first put forward by Immanuel Wallerstien. I would suggest you read up on the topic before making half-baked responses like this.
US (see native Americans)
Spain (see Cuba/ Mexico)
Wow you just got touchdowned on.
Canada (see indigenous)
Wow you just mega-mollywhopped inside of.
wait, do you think calling canada a genocidal colonist state in the imperial core is an own to us?
Thats literally our point
Lol you don’t see the irony?
This is so adorable.
https://redsails.org/friendly-feudalism/
You know how any time there’s a map where it colors countries who vote on UN resolutions, or countries where you can be thrown in jail for being poor, etc etc etc etc, you know how its usually a very similar map with US Europe and western allies on one side, and the entire rest of the world (the other 6.5 billion people) on the other?
Yeah, that teeny group that seems to always get its way controlling global politics is the imperial core.
They prefer to be called The International Community™
And occasionally the “We make the rules, you take the orders” rules-based order.
Probably start with where all the giant battleships come from: https://www.businessinsider.com/magnitude-of-us-naval-dominance-2013-11
Why does the USA need all those battleships if they’re not doing imperialism? Are they just cosmetic battleships? Just for shits and giggles?
They asked a question in good faith, and have since gotten it clarified. No need to be hostile.
I was answering his question, not trying to be hostile. I did not insult him at all. Just voicing my opinion.
Ok, so the imperial core is in DC to you, got it. The previous reply is more thoughtful than that.
Another user already explained world systems theory, but there’s also the school of global historical materialism, that analyses the relationship and structure of the imperial core/triad and the periphery/global south. Samir Amin was a leading figure in that, he also coined the term “Eurocentrism”. You can find quite a few recordings of his lectures for free on YouTube, or pirate his books (he’s dead now, so it’s not like he’d get the money anyways).
Imperial core = CCPs geopolitical enemies
I’ve grown up under a communist government in a socialist republic. So while I have no degree in Marxism-Leninism, I can assure you that all of my schooling was infused with it. Same goes for most of popular culture. I don’t despise communism, as is often the case with people like me, the idea is noble, if utopian. The ideology, like all ideologies, is scary for its intolerance and disregard of human nature. I will therefore gatekeep any pure ideolog, just to save my own faith in humanity.
Huh? That’s a very roundabout way of describing a communist state. Where do you come from specifically? You can count communist states on your fingertips.
I don’t think that’s what the word “ideology” means. Also it’s dangerous and unproductive to off-handedly remark on “human nature.” It’s a bad faith psuedoscientific buzzword that’s rooted in uncontextualized historical analysis. Nothing happens in a vacuum.
Again, I’m not quite sure what this means. I think you’re conflating a lot of things here that just don’t make sense and I dont want to make any assumptions about you. No community can ever be immune to reactionary politics, but thats not the same as rejecting “pure ideology”
If you put down the thesaurus and actually think about things you will perhaps start to understand. I grew up in former Czechoslovakia until my adulthood under the rule of the communist party until we overthrew them in 1989. The effects of that time are still with me. The human nature that came to light during communist rule would make your hair stand on end. All in pursuit of ideology. You can’t comprehend what you’re advocating for further than some utopian theory you read.
What? You have nothing to say now? I would appreciate if you stated your position to my replies to you.
Gonna be real, your smug levels are pretty high right now yourself.
My apologies, I was generalising. I’ve had perfectly normal interactions with hexbear users, but I also saw a bunch of very circlejerky threads populated by hexbear users which I found unbearable (or should it be unhexbearable?).
Can you give direct links? No one can discount your feelings but without any examples or evidence then we can’t understand.
Thank you for your open minded approach. Obviously I don’t save posts or comments that annoy me, but now I see one of those as a response to my comment (large gif/jpg with no text). Earlier today I saw a post about brigading that was stupid, but I’m not throwing all hexbears into the same basket, a bunch of the comments were completely nuts. I couldn’t find it again, instead I found this one: https://hexbear.net/post/502637 Again, it’s not a crime, people can circlejerk however they want. What really annoys me is when I come across a post where I’m interested in reading people’s opinions one the subject and the comments are filled with stickers. Strangely enough no other community does that.
We’re a liberal instance and some people don’t like that.
I don’t give a shit about your politics. You’re all toxic assholes that just make the internet annoying.
you’re being kind of a toxic asshole rn ngl
Wow what’s up with this immediate hostility? The other user was being completely civil.
No need to jump in a conversation fists swinging.
PRODUCTIVITY CHECK: Are you typing this from a public workplace, classroom, dinner table, library, queue, etc? If so, GET YOUR ASS BACK IN GEAR!
If you’re not posting at work, what are you even doing?
spoiler
Tough to have decades of indoctrination questioned, isn’t it?
The internet should be annoying for you specifically
You’re a bunch of 4Chan users cosplaying as leftists and some people don’t like that.
Drats! The one true leftist has figured out our ruse! For three whole years we’ve been meticulously crafting a safe space for queer and marginalized people to speak freely without condescension and infantilization from privileged folks, all as a bit, to eventually confuse users of a FOSS Reddit alternative. You got us. Pat yourself on the back. I can’t believe you figured it out.
Wait, it was all a ruse? I have already brought the whole collection of true leftist theory (Harry Potter complete collection) all for nothing?
Yeah, 4chan, known for being vehemently opposed to racism, sexism, homophobia, ableism, and all other forms of bigotry. You can tell we’re all 4chan users because of how we’re literally the opposite of 4chan users in basically every way.
Right, just like how the Nazis were really socialists because they had “socialist” in the name.
Your actions speak much louder than your words, and from what I’ve seen, you all love to spout facist and authoritarian ideals. Funny how you all bust out the concern trolling about minority groups and bigotry when called out on your actions, yet never defend these ideals in organic conversations where the topics actually come up.
did you not see the thread on active most of yesterday where we were en masse screaming at liberals for their conditional support for trans people
out of all things to say about us that is certainly one of them, given that we’ve mass purged our own userbase multiple times over these issues
we have been on this site for three years before federation with the same strict anti-bigotry culture since the beginning. I wish you guys could realize how fucking wild conspiracies like this sound like to us. Like we were only pretending to be gay marxists to ourselves for three years lmao
We’re 4chan trolls who have been running a running joke where we refuse to tolerate racism, misogyny, transphobia. We did it all in isolation for 3 years, so we could show up here, requiring lots of actual development work to re-merge and federate, as a bit.
This is what liberals need to believe to continue daily life free of mental interruptions.
And it would be so much easier to not give a shit about any of that. You really don’t get anything for standing up for the powerless (aside from the fact that our trans posters are among the most powerful ever known).
We literally bring it up ourselves for no particular reason
Because we definitely don’t have multiple different queer communities with >3 years of posts in them and a weekly queer specific megathread every week for 3 years and we definitely didn’t recently onboard r/traaa too and we definitely don’t have a modteam that is over 50% trans and enby,
We also definitely don’t have a site wide culture of mocking and bullying transphobes internally and we definitely didn’t have a trans admin bully all the power posters into reading Trans Liberation: Beyond Pink and Blue 3 years ago in the site’s early days
Hi there! Looks like you linked to a Lemmy community using a URL instead of its name, which doesn’t work well for people on different instances. Try fixing it like this: !anti_cishet_aktion@hexbear.net, !transenby_liberation@hexbear.net, !traaaaaaannnnnnnnnns@hexbear.net
The whole thing about that was that the Nazis didn’t do anything socialist, and in fact the term privatization was invested to describe their economic policies. Hexbear acts against LGBT hate, racism, ableism, etc., so this analogy is a non-starter.
Fascism is only a vibe, and the vibe is “something CmdrShepard disagrees with”
It’s literally the only place on the internet that I, as a Trans woman, feel completely safe. The ONLY people who I know 100% will go to bat for me even when it is inconvenient.
You’re a fucking moron.
we are about as far from 4chan as you can get, we’re just rude to losers like you who equate queer liberationist leftists with incel pedophile racists on 4chan
Go fuck yourself!
(P.S. This is why we’re rude sometimes, absolutely go and fuck yourself)
Ahh the one true leftist is here! Gatekeeping.
How are we like 4chan users? We filter slurs and ban users who try to engage in hate speech. We offer content/NSFW warnings. We don’t doxx or send death threats and ban those who try.
I want to know why you looked at Hexbear and saw 4chan.
I don’t say people trying to associate Hexbear and 4chan are fed posters, but I say that if I were a
I would certainly try to make that association popular.
Oh, full stop. I was just hoping I could get an answer about what they dislike about 4chan to use it as an insult against us. Because right now, it just seems like the tone. Not any of the other fucked up things on that image board.
?
I’ve never used that website, I’d imagine most hexbear users haven’t. We’re actually reddit refugees from 3 years ago, thank you very much 😤.
Not like that’s much better lol.
There’s no cosplay here, I can promise you that. I’m bi and communist, don’t know about other users. I know we have a sizeable amount of trans users as well. Pretty sure none of us are cosplaying as left of LGBT.
I never used Reddit, I never listened to the podcast. I came here from a discord server lol. I’m basically without original sin here. I’m the perfect leftist.
We’re to the left of you. Cope. Seethe. Communism or barbarism, and it’s pretty clear what you’re into
You got us, all of our theory reading groups, real life mutual aid, and threads about loving our trans comrades have all been part of an elaborate 3-year long running gag to trick you, the main character.
And yet you would betray all of that work to ineffectively dunk on libs. Which motivation is truly the priority?
You say that like lib dunking is an exclusively right wing activity, which is an adorably sheltered thing to think
I’m saying that all of your theory reading groups, real life mutual aid, and threads about loving your trans comrades are entirely insignificant in precipitating a communist society. Your behavior on Lemmy is actively pushing people away from communism as an ideology, and thus I question whether your users are truly committed to aiding the proletariat in their struggle.
Marx would be ashamed of you people.
“Noo you can’t just be mean to bigots, you’re pushing people away from communism, noo why are you standing up for maligned and beseiged socialist countries, Marx would be ashamed of youu
”
Case in point. Teen angst masquerading as communism
You’d need to establish an antagonistic relationship between the two before this remotely works as an own.
Sure. The people who you are childishly attacking comprise the audience that you have been provided to spread your leftist ideals and accomplish your purported communist objectives. But instead of evangelizing, you choose to resort to mockery and snickering inside jokes, thereby ensuring that your isolated community never gains enough relevance to effect real change. It’s amazing to me that I have to spell this out for you, you should be abundantly aware after being defederated by the vast majority of other servers.
Your entire shtick is a self-congratulatory circlejerk just for being on team “We Hate America”. That’s not communism, it’s teenage angst.
It’s so cute when libs project their purile lack of knowledge onto the people consistently tearing their imperial worldview apart
Puerile*
What? No one on Hexbear is on it because we think we’re going to “effect real change” on here lol
Maybe you forget how isolated lemmy is in general. Even if we wanted to do that it’s not even possible. This is just our comfortable space in an ocean of online liberalism. We’re happy to discuss politics with people in good faith and it’s great if we can help educate people but pretty much everything important happens in real life, offline. So don’t act surprised when you’re met with mockery because you’ve accused us of betraying communism for not letting the bigots, transphobes, reactionaries, and libs talk down to us and insult us on the Internet in some naive attempt to “convert” them.
Also, we get along fine with most of the fediverse! I’m glad we’re still connected to lemmy.ml, lemm.ee, sdf, etc even though there can be a few bad actors. I’m not sure federating with your instance was a good idea though…
Fair enough. I think you’re delusional if you believe that your users are accomplishing anything important in real life, due to their terminally online status and lack of social graces, but sure.
It’s amazing to me that you don’t recognize that the internet has become the most powerful tool for social control in human history, and any attempt to counter the prevailing narrative will inevitably have to incorporate a digital component in order to succeed. But sure, Lemmy is just where you take out your frustrations on the libs after a hard day’s work ineffectively unionizing and canvassing for irrelevant leftist politicians. Good luck with that, you’re really making a difference 👏
Comments like this have really shown me that liberals don’t actually care about beliefs at all (hexbear having diametrically opposed beliefs to 4chan). They only care about tone.
Why yes, groups of people who act like a bunch of dogpiling 4chan trolls typically don’t have their beliefs respected or acknowledged. Tone is important. Glad we could help you come to that realization.
Understood. And I know there are groups on pretty much every instance that ruin things for everyone else. I don’t want to judge any full instance from the actions of a minority.
Lots of tankies from what I’m seeing, they’re the “alt-left” if you will, they believe in just as much weird stuff as the alt-right but are on the left side of the spectrum… Heck they end up meeting on many things…
Could you provide an example of Hexbears agreeing with the alt-right about something specific? I think a lot of people conflate “disagreeing with the liberal consensus” with “thinking a MAGA thing” when they’re really pretty different.
They are pro Russia.
Hexbear is very categorically not pro Russia, we’re just not pro West
I can’t hear you, the Arms Deliverys to Ukraine are to loud!
Fuck you people. You are pro China and Russia.
We are pro China, we are not pro Russia
Same thing.
Taiwan is a Country
Not according to the US or EUs member nations or Taiwan
Not really. Not even amerikkka agrees
Reposted from further upthread.
Why don’t you link a video of this incident instead of just a still image?
I’m confused. There doesn’t seem to be anything happening in this image?
/s
I am incredibly owned rn
you’re literally pro-nazi and you’re complaining about us lmao
Lmao go further supporting genocides.
Which genocides are we supporting? Point me to specific posts please.
Say that more than 3 screen inches from you supporting ethnic cleansing next time please.
So you support the genocide in Donbas?
When being “not pro west” means not analyzing the conflict but simply adopting the same point of view as Russian propaganda just because Ukraine is supported by the west then yeah, you’re pro Russia.
What are you talking about? We have a huge incredibly active news mega that does analysis daily. The fact that we are as sceptical of western media as we are of russian is a good thing. You shouldn’t just uncritically swallow state department propaganda. You should investigate claims made, instead of just accepting them.
What is the Russian propaganda that we’re repeating in regard to Ukraine?
Why can’t you see the difference? We see the west and Nato as having propagated and profited off of this conflict. Russia is guilty as well as Ukraine in fanning the flames of war. But peace is a far better alternative to war and far better than flooding the area with weapons. Weapons that will continue to do damage long after hostility ends. Pro Russia How?
Just like you analyzed our news megathreads from the last year to make this assessment?
It just fucking baffles me how people from other instances feel so comfortable talking shit straight from their ass. I just don’t understand the mentality. It’s fucking slimy. You can just do that shit and you don’t feel dirty?
Go into the news mega and post your “analysis” we would love to see it
No thanks, I’m not into brigading :)
Are you this afraid of learning something? Coward
Why do you think it is impossible to just dislike two things at once?
Mostly about China and North Korea.
Alt right and alt left both deny Uyghur camps, and think Kim Jong Un is pretty awesome.
In my experience alt right folks are pretty anti China, to the point where that is often the reason they oppose the Ukraine war, as it is dividing the attention of the Christian west from the rising, menacing Tigers that threaten white society.
Hexbears are often skeptical of Adrian Zenz who is usually the source of claims about China. Most that I’ve seen acknowledge that there are camps (China openly says it is running programs to deradicalize separatists and fundamentalists in the region), but disagree that they are as bad as western media depicts them, and would probably argue that western nations are concern trolling about the issue regardless because it is easy to question whether American foreign policy is motivated by concern for Muslims. Genuinely curious, who is an alt-right guy who doesn’t think there are camps in Xinjiang? I’ve never encountered a pro-Chinese reactionary.
As to Korea I thought MAGA types just memed about Kim Jong Un because Trump sort of got along with him. Hexbears think that the Korean War was bad and that Korea is acting predictably given that a nuclear power is constantly threatening them with annihilation. There are a variety of positions in Hexbear on the DPRK though, and I can’t really account for all of them, but I think they arise out of a genuine anti-imperial and anti-war sentiment, and a healthy doze of skepticism of western narratives of a state enemy. I don’t think you could say that for the alt right.
Alt right and Liberals both hate China
Trump derangement syndrome is all too real and the proof is how liberals reacted to him trying to end the Korean war.
Same thing with Afghanistan.
Alt Right and alt left both deny the existence of the tooth fairy
Last I checked the alt right believes them same claims about the world that dems do in terms of the supposed camps, they just think they are good because the alt right hates muslims
name literally a single one or quit spreading this bullshit.
Genocide denial.
Which genocide is being denied by hexbear users?
I had some conversations here. They were saying that China isn’t doing anything to the Uyghurs in Xinjiang. That seems like genocide denial to me.
While I think nay accusation of genocide should be taken seriously and investigated, I do not think we should accept these claims without basis, and we have to accept that despite several years of allegations, no proof has been provided. Both the US state department and the CIA have had to acknowledge that there is no genocide going on in Xinjiang. Here’s a carrd with mainly Western sources debunking the claims of genocide https://xinjiangahr.carrd.co/
That’s very misleading. They say they have insufficient proof to say it is racially motivated. (Which is a prerequisite for genocide) But there is certainly great oppression happening there.
Both organisations have acknowledged that there is at the worst a cultural genocide going on - ie. An erasure of culture.
One can wonder how such a genocide is carried out, when the Uyghur language is still taught, Uyghur culture and language is still freely distributed and promoted and Uyghur people are a prominent part of the Chinese popular culture.
Your claim leads me to believe you did not engage with the sources provided to you.
Why are you linking an actual propaganda thinktank as an example as of Uyghur Genocide?
You could link any source, but you link one that is staffed by people who’s careers have been purely to lie about American’s enemies and push American interests?? I hope you’re a little sharper than that and you’re just linking that because you hope other people will swallow anything.
“HEY GUYS THIS ORGANIZATION THAT IS PAID TO TELL ME THAT CHINA IS BAD, GET THIS, SAYS CHINA IS BAD!!”
Come on bud.
You want the wiki?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_genocide
Wikipedia? Unironically? You must be trolling
Denounce the US genocide against Martians right now or you’re a genocide denier.
Hell yeah I’m a genocide denier.
I deny white genocide without any remorse 😎
So you believe in White Genocide?
Being pro Russia, genocide denialism, authoritarianism, being hateful of ideas that don’t conform to their worldview, racism (just not towards the same people), the list goes on and on.
Being anti-nato does not mean we are pro-russia.
Specifically which genocide is being denied?
Define “authoritarianism”.
Yes we are hateful towards racism, sexism, ableism, transphobia, homophobia and fascism.
What racism is being done by hexbear users? The mod team takes such things very seriously
Hey, I’m a Hexbear user and I really think you have the wrong impression of what our site is. Idk if you’re open to reconsidering or if you’re just trying to get a few antagonistic words in but I’ll tell you my experience as a long time user:
Our site isn’t pro-russia. We just want the war to come to a swift end without any further bloodshed. Some people take offense to that because we don’t think the best way to do that is to send more guns, tanks, planes, dollars, etc into the warzone. That benefits no one except the arms manufacturers and the money lenders. Not regular people on either side.
The only thing I can think of that you would be referring to is the “holodomor” or something similar that happened in the USSR. It’s not that we deny that many people did die in these horrible tragedies or that there wasn’t Soviet government involvement in some of them but that these very real events are being distorted for political reasons by people who want to paint the USSR in a certain, wholly bad, light. As communists (or anarchists), we try to be very open to criticism and new ways of thinking about or doing things but not when the intent is to do historical revisionism to make the people who liberated the concentration camps and ended the crimes of Nazism seem like Nazis under a different name.
Well, I guess this is true in a way. As revolutionists, we do seek to change the system by establishing a new authority with the capability to make this change. But have you ever noticed how the current system maintains and perpetuates itself? Sure, you can vote (and we don’t seek to abolish that!), but when that fails and working-class people take to the streets seeking change, why is it that people with guns and tear gas and riot shields try to stop them and maybe even imprison them? It’s not that leftists are uniquely “authoritarian” but that we want to use that authority for representing regular, working-class people and to bring about a better world where that authority isn’t necessary anymore. Our anarchist users probably have a somewhat different take on this but one of them will have to talk about it lol
Sure, there are a lot of ideas that we hate. But isn’t that everyone? I hope we could all agree on hating things like fascism, racism, sexism, transphobia, etc etc. Our users probably feel more strongly about that than most people lol but that’s just cuz a lot of us have been targets of those kinds of ideas. Other than stuff like that though… this site has been one of the most accepting places on the Internet in my experience. Sure, we argue a lot (sometimes too zealously lol), but just cuz we care a lot about getting things right. On our site, we don’t have downvotes to encourage users to actually challenge bad ideas and voice their opinion instead of just feeling satisfied having slightly influenced an algorithm.
This just hasn’t been my experience and I know most of our users would agree. Racism gets swiftly removed on Hexbear and lots of people replying challenging it. Do you have any examples? This has just been so contrary to my time on the site. Unless you mean jokes about white people but I hope I don’t have to explain why that’s not a problem lol
Anyway, I just want our instances and our users to exist together in peace. I know we have very “different” ideas from what is considered the mainstream in the west and on most of the English-speaking internet but I know our presence on the “fediverse” can be a positive thing and that we can get along. I hope this helps you to understand our site a bit better.
The whole “we want to end the war” argument just reeks. It stinks of russian propaganda. Russia started the war. They invaded Ukraine. Would you have the same viewpoint if the US was the invader? I’ve seen that comment several times and it kinda starts sounding like a red fascist dogwhistle
The war did not start in 2022, your analysis of what has been happening before the invasion needs to go back before that.
Ok
I guess instead of “war” I should have said “conflict” btw
dude history has a context
🤡🤡🤡
Do you think “anti-white racism” is even remotely as bad as other forms of racism? Or even a problem at all? White people already have all the privileges bestowed upon them by a fundamentally white-supremacist society. Making fun of this concept on our tiny social media website isn’t hurting anyone.
In the vast majority of cases, no, not even close.
It’s 100% a problem, for multiple reasons. First and foremost, it’s racist, so it’s already inherently a problem for that reason alone. But it’s also a problem because your [hexbear’s] moralistic self-righteousness combined with your [hexbear’s] obvious hypocrisy gives people opposed to your ideals that much more ammunition (and of course you don’t care about that, but that itself is also part of the hexbear problem).
And the worst part is that, as with so many of hexbear’s problems, there’s no reason for it. It’s such an easy problem to fix, and would give an instance like hexbear that supposedly prides itself on its inclusivity such a huge boost in credibility. If you want to set yourselves up as morally unimpeachable, then be morally unimpeachable! Set an actual example, and be leaders that bring people together, not because of compromising your beliefs, but by actually being consistent, steadfast, and intellectually honest about the beliefs you already have.
And sure, I get the importance of having a place where you can feel comfortable and meme hyperbolically about problems you feel are important, and about the people who don’t agree with you. That seems to be the direction that most hexbears seem to want to go.
But, in the end, it is racist, and it is disingenuous to promote yourselves as this bastion of anti-racism while encouraging literal racism on your instance and then act all surprised pikachu face when you get called out on it.
Nothing is “inherently” anything. What makes, for example, anti-black (as contrary to anti-white) racism bad in spaces like this? It furthers the psychological harm caused by the racist material conditions of white-supremacist society and normalizes these conditions. Racist rhetoric is part of the superstructural justification for these conditions that makes the oppressor feel superior and the oppressed feel inferior and like they deserve it. This contradiction does not exist for white people and that is why anti-white racism effectively does not exist, except maybe beyond a limited level in inter-personal relationships. It might make individual white people feel a little bad but it has no material backing.
I’m not the one pearl-clutching over anti-white racism.
This issue doesn’t really give anyone “more ammunition” against us. Part of the reason we do keep these kinds of jokes around (besides being funny) is because it tends to out reactionaries (like how you are being right now).
I’m pretty sure most of the people making “cracker” jokes on here are white themselves. I don’t think Hexbear is known as the “anti-white” instance lol
Yeah, I mean that’s pretty much what Hexbear is. I don’t think anyone here would want to be “morally-unimpeachable leaders” or even to what end that would be.
i don’t care about being racist toward white ‘people’
“Up yours, woke moralists! 😠 We’ll see who cancels who.”
Can’t be racist against white people
Really? Go tell that to Jews… Or the Irish… Or Acadians (heck, french Canadians in general)… The list goes on and on…
You mean all the people that weren’t classified as “white” as they suffered persecution by white people? Okay
can’t be racist against white people
“goes on to name people crackers excluded from the ‘white’ definition in order to colonize them”
No one here is pro Russia lol. We just recognize that the war in Ukraine is an intractable meat grinder, and working for peace is more productive than continuing the conflict in an effort to further enrich War Contractors.
Woah woah woah, calm down there chief.
I have that same opinion having seen hexbear posts for the past 6 months. It’s not invalid because it makes you upset.
boo hoo someone is to your left politically and you’re mad about it.
The only person that looks mad here is you…
cope
“These two groups disagree with me, that means they must agree with each other!”
If you’re familiar with CTH and the dirtbag left, Hexbear is where they went after being banned by Reddit.
For what it is when lemm.ee considered de-federated from them they flooded the instance turning a 200 comment thread into 1200. And lots of harassment. Edit: In case you wanted to read that clusterbomb of a thread: https://lemm.ee/post/4543536
I had to look them up but yep I do remember CTH. Thanks for the answer, I’ll keep an eye out.
I had some conversations here. They were saying that north Korea is a lovely democracy, Russia is totally justified in Ukraine, and China isn’t doing anything to the Uyghurs in Xinjiang. Just some examples from yesterday.
Here’s a very approachable resource that debunks the claims of genocide in Xinjiang, using mainly western sources https://xinjiangahr.carrd.co/
I can’t find the source of that website. Do you know where it comes from?
The website is a collection of sources with links gathered by a hexbear user because we got sick of having to do this song and dance every time. You can literally go interact with each link and each source individually - they all state where each claim comes from
Hmm, looks like the response to the un report is some guy on Twitter. And he seems to mostly handwave a ton of eyewitness testimony and investigations because they’re from western governments.
You mean the dude pointing out how there’s no first hand sources, the report is making use of unofficial translations and the report is in part based on observations made by the us army? Seems like a bit more than just “handwaving” eyewitness testimony to me.
What do you mean no first hand sources? I thought those were the the eyewitness that he dismissed because some of them hadn’t talked to people about their traumatic experiences before talking to the UN.
I’m not bothered by the translations. An office translation would need to be by China, right? So they’d have a motive to mistranslate to downplay what they’re doing. As long as the original documents as well as the translations are available, it should be easy enough to check the translation accuracy.
Examples of what? People disagreeing with you?
People disagree with things most everyone on sjw would agree with.
Oh no, how dare they disagree!
I went into the thread. You defended Nazis and argued that it makes sense that the FRG (west Germany) had so many Nazis in control of the government, police, judicative, and companies. While there were alternatives (believe me as someone living in Germany and having informed myself about that I know it). You also moved your goal posts and tried to diminish influences of other states i.e. the US (which you nationalist rise above others). All in all you would be okay in the instance, but get back lash when you kept up the way to jump from one to the other.
That you try to ignore those actions and the responses to your comments fits that lemmy users arguing against hexbear are deflecting heavily from their own responsibility and their own actions.
Your points in regards to both Russia&Ukraine are also not true (else you would directly link to it, and then there is no consensus in the hexbear userbase neither) and liking the CFR article is also not showing anything about hexbear (who - if you do search for it - are actually linking the UN report as well as the Chinese answer in regards to the Uigurs in their threads and comments about it).
Well. I think that thread gave me cancer. What a cesspool.
They’re coming here. They’ve all got their pronouns after their names, (which is actually a great idea) so it’s a little easier to tell them apart. I’ve got a useless thread with a few in memes@lemmy.ml right now.
It’s frustrating, because I have pronouns after my name and I dislike hexbear… a lot. It is a good idea to have users give pronouns and automatically attach it.
Their behaviour has made me constantly check if people with pronouns after their names are part of hexbear before engaging in any threads, because of the stress of dealing with them :/, sometimes I do engage anyway and immediately regret it /shrug
It is depressing, because normally using pronouns like this indicates trans supportiveness so I feel better about conversing with people with them on their names. Hexbear has ruined this because of their behaviour around all other topics and sometimes trans topics.
Just hope Jerboa gets instance-blocking features soon ;p, then I can block them on both my lemmy accounts .
For what it’s worth I hope we get instance blocking features soon so I don’t constantly have to see the toxic shit seeping out of the rest of lemmy.
So you only want to use hexbear? You’ve got the local tab, but I guess you can’t block comments.
I was perfectly happy only using hexbear for years. I generally browse all otherwise
That community is a disaster anyway.