One House Democrat said he spoke for others in the wake of the president’s stunningly feeble debate performance on Thursday: “The movement to convince Biden to not run is real.”
The House member, an outspoken defender of the president, said that House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries and Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer should consider “a combined effort” to nudge President Joe Biden out of the race.
Crestfallen by the president’s weak voice, pallid appearance and meandering answers, numerous Democratic officials said Biden’s bet on an early debate to rebut unceasing questions about his age had not only backfired but done damage that may prove irreversible. The president had, in the first 30 minutes of the debate, fully affirmed doubts about his fitness.
A second House Democrat said “reflection is needed” from Biden about the way ahead and indicated the private text threads among lawmakers were even more dire, with some saying outright that the president needed to drop out of the race.
We need ranked choice voting, and this 2 party system is complete bullshit and needs to go. Obviously, neither will happen, but it should.
Just changing the voting system by itself won’t get rid of the two party system, we also need proportional representation. I much prefer Approval Voting and Sequential Proportional Approval Voting because the results are as good, if not better than RCV, they’re easier for the individual to understand, and it’s impossible to submit an invalid ballot using either method. Plus RCV doesn’t actually change the winner the vast majority of the time. Fargo and St. Louis both use approval voting and folks there appreciate being able to vote for everyone they like and know that their full ballot will always be counted.
Just changing the voting system by itself won’t get rid of the two party system
Not immediately, but it is a necessary condition. A third party really can’t exist without ranked choice voting. If allows for a third party candidate to run without pissing everybody off.
There are lots of voting systems that make third parties less damaging to major parties. Approval, RCV, STAR, Score, to name a few. Approval is a better choice because it’s much easier to use and explain to people (RCV disenfranchises minorities, poor people, and under educated voters), while generally agreeing with RCV on the results. Plus, it’s much easier to expand to proportional representation, when we get there.
Sounds nice and fair. Also won’t ever happen. Our options will always be giant douche or turd sandwich.
You start from the bottom and work your way up. Switch your local elections to approval with a referendum campaign, and by the time you get up to the state level you’ll have people in office who have already proven they can win under approval. I’m serious. You should run a referendum campaign.
Lol, my state, county, and city are so deep red that there’s no chance. Most local primaries, there’s not even a democrat on the ballots. My options are to write in my favorite fictional characters or vote for the least shitbag republicans. My votes are quite literally a waste.
Changing the voting system has nothing to do with the parties in power. Also, it’s a referendum campaign. You’d be collecting signatures from the citizens in order to get it on the ballot. Pretty much all you have to do is find some primaries where the winner got like 25% percent of the vote and talk about how unacceptable that is. St. Louis uses approval for their primaries instead of the general. Approval asks what fraction of the population approved of a candidate, so the winner’s percentage is practically guaranteed to go up, demonstrating they actually do have broad support.
We’re not trying to force a change in winners though. The elections below president are far more dynamic and the people elected usually win for a reason beyond FPTP.
But also, any kind of proportional representation requires a constitutional amendment. RCV can be installed with a state legislature making a 2 sentence bill.
Really what needs to happen is removing the 100 year old cap on the size of the house. 800 reps would drastically change both presidential elections and representation of people in general. Using 800 reps puts California at 96 members to Wyoming still having 1.
Honestly I’d go further, let’s get a round thousand and hook it to a ratio. Obliterating the ability to buy house races will result in better high level candidates and better low level representation. I’d say let’s do the full ten thousand if I thought people would for it.
That linked data is collected from local American races. The winner is overwhelmingly the person who won the first round, which is the only round the majority of the time. When people claim RCV will break the two party system they are trying to claim it will change the winners. The evidence largely shows that no voting system can take a single-winner duopoly and break it.
Any new voting system would require only a simple bill from the legislature. “Ballots instructions for every election at every level shall direct voters to select any number of candidates. The candidates with the most votes wins their respective election.”
Proportional representation specifically refers to how parties divide the available seats in a parliamentary body. Not how you cast your vote.
RCV allows for changes that FPTP doesn’t but that has never meant this would be shaken up right away. Mostly it’s a way to avoid vote splitting. So you can run a progressive, moderate, conservative, and an alt right candidate without the traditional alliances worrying about vote splitting.
Proportional representation specifically refers to how parties divide the available seats
I apologize for not addressing that, but I didn’t think it required expanding on. Yes, that’s correct. I feel the preferred proportional method is Sequential Proportional Approval Voting
RCV doesn’t eliminate vote splitting, it only mitigates it. If two candidates have similar support in a non-final round, one can act as a spoiler for the other. The problem is that it’s harder to understand and FairVote used to lie about it, so a lot of people think it’s not a problem. The Alaska special election from a few years back is an example of a spoiler election. If Palin hadn’t run (or fewer Palin voters voted) the other Republican would have won. If you want to completely eliminate vote splitting you have to move to a cardinal voting method that satisfies the independence of irrelevant alternatives criterion, which is most of them, including approval voting.
SPAV is specifically constructed to work with proportional representation. It iterates until all seats are filled. But in the US, by Constitutional law, it’s one seat per geographical district.
About RCV though it’s still head and shoulders above FPTP, and easy to understand. About Alaska specifically, I don’t understand why you would call the party backed candidate who got more votes a spoiler?
Palin lost in the second round because roughly half of Begich’s voters did not want Palin. If the less popular Republican candidate wasn’t in the race then Peltola still wins. This was a case of RCV working exactly as advertised. A traditional party primary would have nominated Palin, not Begich, and she would have lost anyways.
SPAV is specifically constructed to work with proportional representation. It iterates until all seats are filled.
Yes, that’s how it works. The first round is functionally identical to regular approval which is why I like using the two. Approval for single-winner, SPAV for multi-winner.
But in the US, by Constitutional law, it’s one seat per geographical district.
I’m pretty sure it’s just federal law, but I would have to double check. Not like Congress would change it anyway.
A traditional party primary would have nominated Palin, not Begich, and she would have lost anyways.
That’s pure speculation. But using the voting data from the general, we Begich was preferred to both Palin and Peltola in head-to-head matchups. Palin pulled enough votes from Begich to eliminate him in the first round and he lost to Peltola in the second. If Palin hadn’t run Begich would have won.
You can read more about it from the linked sources here.
Here’s the most relevant section:
Some social choice and election scientists criticized the election in published opinion pieces, saying it had several perceived flaws, which they technically term pathologies. They cited Begich’s elimination as an example of a center squeeze, a scenario in which the candidate closest to the center of public opinion is eliminated due to failing to receive enough first choice votes. More voters ranked Begich above Peltola, but Palin played the role of spoiler by knocking Begich out of contention in the first round of the run-off. Specialists also said the election was notable as a negative vote weight event, as those who voted for Palin first and Begich second instead helped Peltola win by pushing Palin ahead of Begich in the first round.
Elections scientists were careful to note that such flaws (which in technical terms they call pathologies) likely would have occurred under Alaska’s previous primary system as well. In that binary system, winners of each party primary run against each other in the general election. Several suggested alternative systems that could replace either of these systems.
You have to be careful analysing RCV results, because people tend to only look at what the election did, and fail to look at what it didn’t do. One of the good things about RCV is that it collects a fair bit of information, but then it usually ignores a fair bit of it. When trying to understand whether a candidate was a spoiler or not, you have to ask what would have happened if they didn’t run at all, which requires considering collected information the “unaltered” election didn’t take into account. If removing them from the election changes the winner of the race, then they were a spoiler. We know that removing Palin would have resulted in a Begich win over Peltola, so that makes Palin a spoiler. She’s a losing candidate that changed the winner of the race simply by entering, assuming voter preferences are stable.
RCV will end the two party system. France uses runoff and they have more than two parties
That said, I’m partial to the systems in Sweden and Germany, plenty of options to choose from.
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RCV and two-round runoff are very different in practice because the two round system encourages strategic voting, has a higher potential for spoilers (RCV has them too), and has an intermediate time where the advancing candidates have to fight over all the voters who didn’t pick them in the first round, which is meaningfully different from when they were a part of the pack.
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France has some amount of proportional representation at the local level.
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They’re not starting from an entrenched two party system.
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They’re honestly simply one of the big exceptions, it’s fairly well-established that single-winner methods tend towards two parties pretty much no matter what you do. Typically when you see more than two parties at the national level, it’s because there are regional pockets where only two parties are competitive, but it’s not always the same two parties. I’m not familiar with the details about the French political situation, but yeah, they’ve got a very unusual number of parties for a single-winner dominated structure. Compare them with Australia, who have proportional representation at the national level, and it should be pretty clear they’re just plain exceptional. If you need more evidence, Texas, Mississippi, and Georgia already use a two round system for their legislatures but they still have a two party system.
I dunno how much you know about representation and voting systems, but the wiki article on two round systems is pretty good.
Ah that makes sense. I guess any time you elect a single person, it ends up being a binary choice. Here in Sweden we have parliamentary PR, but the parties are divided into a social-liberal block and a conservative block, so voting for a party is either a vote for the socialdemokrat prime minister or the moderat prime minister.
Pretty much any power structure is going to coalesce into the “ruling” group and the “opposition” group, because doing so is strategically advantageous. But, proportional representation ensures that those two groups are made up of sub-groups that have to negotiate within themselves and can even threaten to change sides. Compared with an entrenched two party system, you end up with much a more reasonable government.
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Funny how people elected under the two party system aren’t super motivated to change it.
This is why it has to come from the bottom up. All of the people saying “im sitting out of this election” or “i’m voting third party” are just acting in vain. It’s all vanity as they want to pretend they are doing something while not actually doing anything. If you want this system to change, you have to go out in local elections and push for people who will change it to ranked/star voting, and then have that move up. Then you have people who have won under those conditions voting for it, which makes it a ton more likely.
Voting 3rd party in this election is a vote for Trump. If Trump wins, this will be the last real election the U.S. ever has. All future elections will be Russian style.
Okay. Go convince the Republicans who control over half the states to switched to rank choice voting.
I think we’ll first have to convince the Democratic leadership since they’re about as equally interested in changing things. Both parties want to maintain the status quo because it keeps them both in power.
Bidens about to go down as one of the worst Democrats in the last century because of his hubris if he doesn’t. His decent domestic agenda will be overshadowed by him ushering in another trump presidency by ignoring all the signs for him to drop out. He didn’t early last year when polls repeatedly showed that people thought he was too old. He didn’t when unnamed democrat was leading him by 10 points. He didn’t when his Gaza policy alienated large chunks of his base. If he doesn’t in the next couple weeks when there will probably be polls coming out showing majority support for him stepping down then he’s gone full head in the sand.
It’s like RBG all over again, if these people could just get it through there heads to quit while there ahead they could preserve a decent legacy, instead of tarnishing it by leading the way to a regressive order that overturns everything they’ve done.
Dont worry the DNC will find a way to blame Bernie for it
And lemmings and redditors will blame progressives for it.
I’m going to blame the people that have been trying to gaslight everyone into thinking that Biden was fine.
He was fine. He has never sounded like this before. Just look at the State of the Union for what people were expecting.
This was him being unprepared and trying to remember statistics from 3 and a half years of accomplishments, with a cold, while running a country, while being 81. It reminded me of some bad interviews I’ve been in, honestly.
Bullshit homie, he sounds like this all the time, it’s just progressing faster. They made up a new term to cover it up a few weeks ago and then grampa ran off in his bathrobe and CNN had to call some silver alerts.
For all the people that talked about how horrible cnn has been to Biden, they were cutting him off to help him. Look back on his ‘gaffes’. They’ve been bad for a long time.
I literally don’t know what you’re talking about with bathrobes and silver alerts. What are you smoking?
Never work or live near an old folk’s home?
it wouldn’t be an issue if people didn’t keep saying it
Which is just like ignoring/not testing for covid and calling it over
I don’t blame people for wanting to distance from the topic. The problem with Biden isn’t his ability to lead and govern. It’s his image. Talking about it directly hurts his image. BUT it’s still a discussion that needs to be had.
It would be like Covid if talking about Covid also made it worse.
quit while
therethey’re aheadif these people could just get it through
theretheir heads to quit whiletherethey’re aheadFuck me that’s just fucking laziness innit?
It’s like RBG all over again, if these people could just get it through there heads to quit while there ahead they could preserve a decent legacy, instead of tarnishing it by leading the way to a regressive order that overturns everything they’ve done.
This is one of the core problems of the Democrats: hubris. When Obama had a majority in the House and Senate, he could have easily pushed through a Supreme Court appointee to replace RBG. But she wouldn’t go. Because in her mind, there was no one qualified to fill her shoes. She was convinced that she was the GOAT and that to voluntarily step down when it was safe to do so would be an insult. This is coupled with the fact that Democrats were absolutely, completely certain that they would win every election for the presidency after Obama without trying and that the “coalition of the ascendant” would easily put Hillary into the White House, and then she could be the first female president in US history and have an easy PR win by replacing an aging female supreme court justice.
I’m willing to bet we have the the same problem here, but in one person: Biden probably thinks the Democrats could never field anyone for president better than him and that his victory is a lock without any real effort to campaign for it again.
Fun fact: the last time anything like this happened it was with Grover Cleveland. Cleveland was the 22nd president of the United States who lost his re-election bid the first time around, and then got re-elected to be the 24th president of the United States. We are officially in the second Gilded Age.
But we’re already past the primary period… Are we suggesting having a quick primary anyway? Who should we put in his place? I haven’t heard a single suggestion for who else to elect. Are we saying Harris should step in? Who should she run with?
Newsom; Whitmer; Pritzker; Buttigieg; Shapiro; Khanna; Klobuchar; Walz; Booker.
I even saw someone mention Wes Moore and I was reminded that he’s a pretty good moderate governor of Maryland now instead of “only” a West Point graduate and author.
No mention anywhere of Warren… Did she fail too hard in the primaries?
Gosh I’d love to see her debate Trump. He would never agree to it though, as she’d rip him to logical pieces.
No, in an election where age would be a larger issue than it already is I’m assuming anyone who would hit 80 in office is a non starter.
We need to be training up some younglings.
Wow, you’re right, I didn’t realize she was that old.
Warren is a woman and economically progressive and America hates people who are either of those things, let alone both.
Well, half of those were people who ran against Biden, so that makes sense.
I remember being impressed with Klobuchar, and incredibly impressed with Buttigieg (though sadly he’d lose a lot of the religious vote, sigh). I wish I liked Booker more… But yeah there are some acceptable options there, that’s a relief.
So yeah, lightning primary?
Pritzker is the only name on there with the chops for it. Maybe Walz, but he is DFL so I can’t see the DNC even looking at him.
It’s too late for this kind of thinking. We can’t change horses mid stream
If your horse is on death’s door. And you’re crossing a stream. You’d better be prepared to swim.
I disagree. I actually think you’d see a boost.
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Acknowledging age concerns of the electorate = good.
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Running someone fresh that appeals to this American Idol-esque popularity contest = good.
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Running someone Republicans don’t have their talking-points fleshed out on = good.
Me too. I think you could change to more or less anyone and get a bump.
It really seems as though the populace is extraordinarily weary of these two tired old assholes.
Anyone under 60 would mop the floor with Trump’s toupee.
Running someone fresh that appeals to this American Idol-esque popularity contest = good.
What if no such person exists?
Then you just lose and Trump becomes President by default. Do you have confidence that Democrats can rally behind an actually named person? And if so, what is the name of that person?
I’m no Democrat. But I wouldn’t consider “replacing Biden by somebody” to be a serious option. You need to say “Replace Biden by SPECIFIC NAME HERE”. Otherwise you’re just throwing away the election before it even begins.
Are you asking that because you believe nobody is lining up wanting to be President, or that there is no candidate who fits that bill? Because I can think of half a dozen who both fit the bill and have obvious political ambitions:
- Whitmer
- Newsom
- Buttigieg
- Booker
- Abrams
- Warnock.
All far more youthful; all far more charismatic. All who have enough national name recognition and would trounce Trump in debates and contrast of age alone.
The question to me isn’t, “who else,” it’s, “Will Biden voluntarily step down and endorse such a person at the convention?”
The polls prove this could work:nobody likes either candidate, people want new faces, and age is a problem. Just give them another choice on the Democratic ticket and it’s game-over for the convicted felon. If I could I’d be money this gives better odds than sticking it out with Biden.
I’m not into Democrats, so I honestly don’t know half the people on that list.
Newsom needs to start resigning today to make the election. I think he’s off on technical grounds. And others have pointed out that he’s lower than Trump on a lot of polls. Buttigieg is homosexual and sad to say it, homophobia is on the rise. After the party’s experimentation with Hillary Clinton / Kamala I’m not sure that its a winning strategy. I know middle-aged white guy WASP is annoying, but its a trope for a reason.
In all cases, Trump will deny the other pick as a “loser” and refuse to debate. You’ll be going into the election without ever getting on National stage. Its a huge set of risks.
I’m not necessarily against it. But I also don’t think Biden’s performance was worse than Trump’s last night. A lot of this seems to be just Democrats getting nervous about themselves and their own choices.
Whitmer
I see she’s getting some press. I wouldn’t be against her, but I also don’t know much about her in general. Can she hold up against the Republican hate machine? We all know that Hillary couldn’t do it, so what makes Whitmer any better or more prepared?
Biden did hold up vs Trump. Better or worse, he did prove himself. I recognize that people are worried about “newer, older Biden”. But there’s severe risks in switching a candidate now, especially as vetting likely hasn’t been completed by either side yet. (Democrats need to vet to figure out how Republicans are going to attack her). Its a complete mystery.
You have to understand that the average American functions off of lizard brain impulses. It would be probably go like this:
Acknowledging age concerns of the electorate = show of weakness.
Running someone fresh that appeals to this American Idol-esque popularity contest = show of weakness.
Running someone Republicans don’t have their talking-points fleshed out on = show of weakness.
America operates on principles of running someone strong who says they will always be strong and that if they ever become weak while in office and they acknowledge this to be replaced, the entire party goes with them like a tug boat latched to a sinking oil tanker. Trump didn’t win because he’s smart or a decent human being. He won because he exudes baseless confidence like a broken nuclear reactor exudes gamma radiation.
You know I agree with much of what you say here. All I’ll say is that while there’s uncertainty in the outcome of this route, I’m convinced there is certainty at this point that Joe Biden will lose. Why? Because there is all there is to know about Joe Biden. Call it media saturation; diminishing returns… There is fundamentally nothing Joe Biden can do or say that people don’t already know and now their minds are pretty much made up. The desperation-play of even asking for that debate shows the Biden campaign knows how bad of a position they’re in… And it of course backfired tremendously.
So at this point, I view it as uncertainty versus a known loss.
And in that respect, I’m looking at this alternate path as appealing to those lizard-brain American Idol-watching popularity-contest voters. If we could distill election cycles down to a handful of things, chief among them would be “People Vote for the more interesting candidate” and “People vote for the fresher face” – Within the backdrop of age being a huge issue for >70% of American voters when polled, that rings even more truthful now.
So personally, I say we take the chance.
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I thought that, but after last night, I wouldn’t let Biden cook in my kitchen without supervision.
Biden will lose against Trump. Changing candidates this late isn’t ideal but it’s better than guaranteed failure, and it’s better than after the convention if Biden deteroriates from where he’s currently at.
I’m not worried about him “deteriorating”. Anyone who has paid attention to him at all knows that was not reflective of his actual ability to lead. Hell, right after he sounded fine at the after party for anyone still listening.
I’m only worried about people thinking he’s deteriorating. A lot of people have literally only seen that debate from him in the last year and nothing else.
If we stay with Biden, he needs to get really aggressive with his image. Hang out with influencers, go to games, don’t talk about controversial politics while having fun (like with the ice cream).
If we go a different direction it needs to happen now.
I really don’t care which we do. But it’s an important conversation to have. This debate fiasco is 99% on Biden being unprepared. But image is everything for a candidate.
You have to, if your horse literally can’t make it across. It may not go well, but you have no choice.
Don’t look up!
We can change horses if there’s overwhelming pressure to do it and it’s exceptionally well planned.
What we absolutely can’t do is nominate someone else against Biden’s wishes and still have him on the ballot as an independent… that’s how you get folks like Woodrow Wilson.
I, personally, think it’s doubtful that much pressure will materialize, but I’m prepared to be pleasantly surprised.
Meh. Planning be damned. Just float someone under 60 and they’ll crush it.
It depends on how the democrat’s civil war goes in that case. If the replacement gets the lion’s share of the funding then people will abandon Biden. His polling really isn’t great.
Okay enjoy drowning I guess.
It’s not too late now, but it’s absolutely too late in October when Biden needs to appear multiple times per day and across about 5 states. If he can’t do that, then he should step down now.
I see the down votes, but I took this as a Wag the Dog reference. They’re pointing out just how terrible an idea it is for Biden and the democrats to keep trying to sleepwalk through this election while Trump and the republicans pull out all the rhetorical stops.
Stay the course
This is how Bernie can still win! /s
In the off chance they do replace him, they’re going to force the worst possible candidate on us (Kamala?). Because what else are you going to do, let the bad guy win?
It would be newsom
Newsome would have to resign as Governor and I’m not sure he wants to do that for a long shot presidential campaign.
Newsome polls very poorly against Trump and he also isn’t very popular in his home state as Governor.
At that level, Kamala is hated by her home state as well.
Not worth the risk to lose his governorship for a shot in the dark. I don’t know why the Democrat Party hasn’t been building alternatives for the last 4 years. Hell, I only recall seeing Harris when she was yelling at poor immigrants to stay away. They failed this country.
Jesus fuck no. He’s basically Hillary 2.0
and joe biden isnt? lateral move
It feels like he’s inevitable at this point. 🙁
I really hope not. He is as corpo as it gets, shielding PGE from actual consequences.
Which honestly, he needs corpo support to get nominated and elected, since this is an oligarchy.
Why would Kamala be the worst candidate?
A bland and unprincipled candidate whose positions shift based on polling numbers. Not to mention her prosecutorial background and close proximity to SF corruption scandals makes her an easy target.
She’s not worse than Biden but not great. He should have chosen Stacey Abrams.
Her history as a prosecutor in California makes her significantly worse. She’s personally locked up a lot of POC for drug possession.
She seems vague and even incoherent a lot of the time, I’m not so sure she’s better.
Stacey or Kamala?
Kamala
Yeah hard sell on the whiney voice too
I think Tammy Duckworth would’ve been a good choice.
She would have been such a great choice. Completely unassailable from all sides and sharp as a tack.
Everyone hates her for very good reasons.
There is a reason California didn’t vote for her.
Why do people just go on the internet and tell lies like this? California elected her attorney general for 8 years and senator once.
They might be talking about her primary run for President specifically, but she had dropped out way before then I’m pretty sure. That is, I am not sure if California even had a chance to vote for her. It’s one of the parts that suck about US primaries and being in a late state. Sometimes you don’t even get a chance to vote for the person you wanted to vote for before they drop out.
What are those very good reasons? I really don’t know.
Her background is as a “tough on crime” (read: shitty on civil rights) prosecuting attorney.
She was incredibly unpopular when she ran in the primary. Her campaign failed well before Biden was the heir apparent.
Running Kamala would be making the same mistake they made back in 2016. She is polarizing, and extremely unlikeable. Anyone that worked with her or her department when she was in law in CA has nothing but bad things to say about her.
Running Kamala would be giving Trump a second term.
She’s not white and female, those reasons alone mean she’s lost over a quarter of the nation.
That portion of the country wouldn’t vote for any Democrat anyways.
Really cool feeling when your state has primaries long after super Tuesday and the candidates were already mathematically locked in before you get a say. I swear I only get a chance to influence presidential primaries half the time or so. It’s strange to watch a ‘democracy’ keep moving when sometimes your voice doesn’t count because of where you’re from.
We need the primaries to all be on the same day. This isn’t the early 1900’s anymore. States that are getting left behind need to organize to just join super tuesday. The party would not survive disallowing that many delegates.
when sometimes your voice doesn’t count
Humans worship the powerful, not the mundane.
Then it’s simply not a democracy, yet I still often hear politicians, media pundits, and normal people claim it’s the best one. Where does the truth lie?
The truth is that no system of rule is functional long term, anarchism is the only stable system, it worked for 200k years.
So long as the state is how humans organize, there will be boom and bust cycles until either ecological collapse or invulnerable fascism brings us to a new terrible stable state.
The only logical position (in the U.S.) is to vote blue to buy time in hopes that anarchism can be reached by other means.
… Oh, not that kind of truth probably
And people keep saying that democracy is at stake… dude, you guys don’t have it to begin with.
Yes, the truth lies.
Perhaps it’s lying there because truth is dead.
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Democrats have nobody to blame but themselves. They stayed mum for three and half years and now they’re reaping the whirlwind.
☝️
Stayed mum? They actively fought against allowing anyone to hold primaries.
They did? That’s weird I remember voting in them just like I do every 4 years.
You weren’t paying attention. Many states banned anyone else from the ballot, even though there wasn’t cause for that by the rules.
There were no debates (Something that would have given Democratic party members time to decide if they thought Biden was electable.)
Some states were told their delegates wouldn’t count.
There was no fair Democratic Party primary. If you think there was you were either not paying attention, or you didn’t want a fair primary in the first place.
This problem is a problem of the Democratic Part{EDIT}y’s own making.
This problem is a problem of the Democratic
PartiesParty’s own making.
Even Russia puts the opposition on the ballot. That wasn’t an election it was a roll call.
I didn’t get to vote in a primary here in Florida
That’s cuz Biden ran unopposed.
So that’s the point that DancingBear was making and I was reinforcing- as Democratic voters, we were not presented with a choice this cycle
You can generally vote in primaries every year where one is needed, not just every four years fyi, if you’re in to voting and all.
We’re pretty clearly talking about presidential primaries here buddy.
Sure but you specifically mentioned it so I wanted to say we can vote in primaries outside of presidential elections
Thank you for your pivotal contribution to the conversation.
Anything I can do to help with your circle jerk
That’s the point - they closed ranks and kept riding the Biden train whilst quietly hoping that no one would notice it was in danger of coming off the rails.
But we did hold primaries and Biden won in a landslide
Putin also wins by a landslide. It’s easy to do if you ban all the competition.
Nobody noteworthy was competing and all of the elections were landslides. I understand wanting to go through the motions in all states, but it really made zero difference.
Nobody noteworthy? “Going through the motions”? I guess democracy is just like making love with some kind of boring spouse? Okay, fine by me just don’t blame me when I leave the presidential option blank in November if Biden and Trump are the only two options on the ballot. But I do live in a blue state, Jesus H Christ thank god I can vote my conscious.
Weird, my conscience is to vote against the corrupt, fascist, rapist with a grudge against America. After dealing with Trump’s presidency and the aftermath, I can’t even imagine not voting for Biden. And I’m in a red state, so my vote definitely doesn’t matter.
Well before this we had neoliberals I guess so…. But yes vote… even if you have to leave it blank, vote your conscious…… in a red state I don’t think I could live there, but vote regardless
Mmmmm, yea…. Mmmkay. No debates, no media coverage, rarely allowing any primary candidates on corporate media, I’m gonna have to give your statement a mostly false
He has never sounded like that before and he has the record to show that he can do the job. Republicans tried to say he was on drugs because they heard him actually speak at the State of the Union.
There was no reason to expect him to sound like he did. If they do the second debate, I hope he doesn’t try to recall every single statistic and just stick to the big points. But Trump might just not debate like he did in the primaries. In fact, it would be stupid to give Biden a chance to recoup.
Biden has been conspicuously avoiding speaking at unscripted public encounters for quite a while now, though, and reading from an autocue at SotU is a far cry from having to react on the fly and put together coherent arguments in response to moderator questions and Trump’s lies during a debate. I have the feeling Biden’s staff knew full well that the debate was going to be rough going into it.
I don’t think they were expecting this at all. Otherwise they wouldn’t have had him recite such specific information. You could tell he was flustered. If they knew it was going to be like this, I think they would have done a completely different strategy.
I think the cold threw him off and they couldn’t pivot strategy. It should have been a focus on his image from the start. A few times where he laughed at Trump he looked good. In the after party he even sounded completely fine. That should have been the goal of the debate instead of reading receipts.
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“Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth.”
I think the cold legitimately threw him off. Not that he was feeble from the cold. Just that it made him more easily flustered and he snowballed.
I’ve also had interviews that I was “prepared for.” But trying to remember all the information at the moment was difficult. Hell, I was told one of my interviews was the best they had ever seen, and the last question had me flustered until I finally came up with my talking points after a minute.
That’s what it felt like to me, a flustered man in a bad interview that snowballed.
Shout out to the neoliberal dipshits who thought we needed another right-of-center incrementalist to beat Trump.
That one really fucking worked out…
I fully confronted a person that claims Biden was the best shot against trump in 2020. I pointed out how he was not given that we are here now.
They still think that this is the best case scenario… like would they ever admit they were wrong?
Okay, I’ll bite. Who has a better chance?
Bernie did in 2020.
I think people misunderstood my comment.
Biden being the choice in 2020 didn’t fix anything, it only delayed the problem.
As evidence by this year’s election.
A year ago almost anyone with the endorsement of Biden would’ve coasted.
Biden’s big problem in the debate was that, for a few moments, he mumbled a confused answer that sounded like Donald Trump.
It was a no-win situation. The DNC gave in - once again - to their republican-lite mindset of ‘capturing undecided voters’ and agreed to get socked in the face , twice, for absolutely no gain and everything to lose.
DNC consultants have always been morons, but now they’re morons-from-the-90s who still don’t understand what’s changed.
Having a presidential election without debates would have been a big step back and loss for American democracy.
We shouldn’t champion erosion of democratic institutions when it helps our side of the ticket.
And generally, if eroding democratic institutions helps your ticket, it’s a red flag about your ticket.
Having “debates” be this ridiculous mud-wrestling that only benefits trump or another conman is the big step back and the loss to democracy.
They are apparently unable to create a forum in which a position can be taken and defended with facts and reason. UNABLE. Because the republiQans are fielding a demented sociopath and a compulsive liar.
The format is beyond broken, and there isn’t a way to fix it when one party has no intention - never had any intention to follow the rules, or decorum, or common decent behavior.
We found that out eight years ago. I can’t believe they walked right into it again.
Literally any half competent debater could have torn Trump apart up there.
The failure wasn’t the moderators but the opposition candidate to Trump letting him run hog wild.
If Trump claims he’s going to end the war in Ukraine before even taking office, you point out how absurd that claim is and that Trump makes impossible claims without any substance or knowledge of diplomacy. That the images of him photoshopped as Rambo must have gone to his head if he thinks Putin will be so scared of him to give up.
If he says hostages will be released as soon as he’s nominated, you point out it sounds like maybe there’s been a backroom tit-for-tat deal for a hostage release with a hostile foreign nation, and ask if maybe the intelligence agencies should look into that and what he might have been willing to trade for it.
The moderators have to try to keep the appearance of neutrality, but the candidates do not. And the only reason Trump was so successful in spouting BS and getting away with it was because his opposition had the strength of a wet paper towel.
Literally any half competent debater could have torn Trump apart up there.
He’s “debated” a large number of half-competent people in primaries and post-convention. Which one tore him apart? Examples please.
The failure wasn’t the moderators but the opposition candidate to Trump letting him run hog wild.
While the visual of hog-tying trump by a cowboy-hatted Biden is fun, it’s simply not his job to chase the gish. That’s why trumps insane rambling works; it’s not possible to practically address each batshit claim or outright lie. It’s just not. Biden’s already got the job of presenting and defending his own platform.
It is absolutely the moderators’ job to check him and a failure to do so means not only that it’s wide open Crime Time for trump but that the proceedings themselves lend authority to his lies.
The moderators have to try to keep the appearance of neutrality, but the candidates do not.
The appearance of neutrality? As opposed to just neutrality? Okay, well either way, again - no. The moderators have to acknowlege reality and remind the shit-talkers that they can’t say what they just said because it’s bullshit. And once again, they can’t do that with trump because he’s a compulsive liar who is incapable of acknowledging anything but his own reality.
And the only reason Trump was so successful in spouting BS and getting away with it was because his opposition had the strength of a wet paper towel.
Spouting BS and getting away with it is the entirety of what trump does. He’s not an authority on anything, he can’t function as any sort of manager without a stadium’s worth of assistance, and - really, hear me now - he is utterly. incapable. of not lying.
Nothing will stop him from trying to babble nonsense and if the moderators, effectively the referees, the arbitrators, refuse to hold him to any standard, there’s no other outcome than to watch helplessly at his idiot spewhole as it disgorges lie after lie after lie.
Biden blew it, yes, but if you think there was something to be gained by engaging with trump, i encourage you to consider the simple fact that trump is not able to acknowledge truth if it does not directly benefit him, and any attempt to do so will be met with more lies, more vitriol, and no one will succeed.
It’s unconscionable that anyone at this late date would even consider that even a remote possibility.
Seriously, they are so far behind their conservative counterparts is not even funny. They need to hire better PR specialists, and marketing teams.
That’s a pretty fatal mistake when your average person is only gonna watch a 10 second clip of the debate.
That’s it for me. I’m not voting for anyone who sounds confused for 10 seconds. Unless maybe they ran against someone who sounds confused for 10 years, but only in that circumstance.
The problem is that there was no live fact checking. Wtf can you do against a constant Gish Gallop of blatant lies? Even if they drugged him, I’m not sure what he could’ve done with that debate format.
He does this shit consistently and has been for a couple years. It wasn’t one fucking answer in the debate. Christ. We are so fucked.
“reflection is needed”
I hate being pessimistic, but they’re gonna drag out “reflecting” for so long that they will lose the election.
if our elected officials are actually serious, they better act quickly on this because yesterday was extremely embarrassing. time will tell.
Remember when a huge coalition of people wanted RBG to retire? And then she didn’t, and those people took it as courage or some such other virtue?
Fucking hate when you get “too old” out of people for one side but not the other.
All these fossils should have been sent to the farm years ago.
Max age for starting a term should be 70. In most places you can’t be in control of a car without regular tests when you reach that age, yet you can be in control of the largest nuclear arsenal on Earth if you can still tell the difference between a cow and a horse.
I only remember people being so pissed that she didn’t, they celebrated when she died. I don’t remember anyone who wanted her to step down calling it ‘courageous’ when she didn’t.
There’s a herd mentality that often overrides practical thinking, along with the desire not to offend.
I think for RBG she had worked so hard to get there as a woman, and she probably felt like men don’t retire from the role just to please political concerns so why should she? Could she see the mess the country is in, she would have retired.
Her lack of oversight is one of the only things many of us will ever remember her for. She set all women back 50 years by not stepping down. That’s part of her legacy now, and it always will be.
Her decision is a lesson for all those who will listen. We need to stop gambling with the future of our country. The best decision for everyone always needs to be put forward, and even the best people need to step down, if needed, to preserve and secure progress.
It’s true. Her stubbornness leading to a conservative supermajority is what her legacy is now, instead of her trailblazing. Maybe one day when trans people aren’t considered fourth class citizens and we live in a better world, people will go back to remembering her trailblazing. She made a terrible gamble due to a lack of fear, and it was selfish or naive.
Isn’t it too late to get a new democrat as candidate anyway, right? I mean you need to register in all states before a deadline no?
There, a candidate must win support from the majority of “delegates” - party officials who formally choose the nominee. Delegates are assigned to candidates proportionally based on the results of each state’s primary election. This year, Mr Biden won almost 99% of the nearly 4,000 delegates.
According to the DNC rules, those delegates are “pledged” to him, and are bound to support his nomination.
But if Mr Biden were to drop out, it would be a free-for-all. There is no official mechanism for him or anyone else in the party to choose his successor, meaning Democrats would be left with an open convention.
Presumably, Mr Biden would have some sway over his pledged delegates, but they would ultimately be free to do as they please.
That could lead to a frantic contest erupting among Democrats who want a shot at the nomination. Source
2024 is going to be the year of frenzied elections with no preparation
People out here just winging shit like the future of the country doesn’t matter
why wouldnt it go down the chain of succession? kamala harris
I’m pretty sure he could step down and hand it to Kamala. Maybe he could even run as VP. That might rock the boat the least, and while I don’t like Kamala, I have more faith in her to actually do the job.
I always figured the role of president was more of a figure head.
I get the buck stops with them, they can do their veto and special powers thing, and I’m sure there are other “ultimately this is your decision” type things.
But it’s the administration you are voting on.I’m sure it feels amazing to have “that one guy” steering your country. But, I’m sure they mostly do what their advisors tell them to
I want a president who has a vision and some form of understanding, but who knows what he doesn’t know and knows how to get that information. I want someone who I know has the best team guiding them and has sound judgment.
I can’t fucking believe this is an impossible ask. :(
Also being young enough that they’ll actually have to live with any fuckups they create would be a nice bonus. Our current options don’t have any skin in the game.
Did you open a case for that
I mean, that’s partly true. From my keeping up with politics, some of the candidates actions are their own but about 80% of the job is what you described. Your party recommends actions to you and congress sets you up for most of your actions. Vetoing things is only common when the opposition holds congress.
I’ll highlight though that lately the presidents have seized more and more power and continue to do so. It started with Bush basically declaring war without congress and lately it’s been Biden doing things like canceling student loans and blocking the border up. Which I get that’s all power they’ve always had, but they’ve been reluctant to use it improperly because it’s so abusable. Now those robes are off and so trump will come into office and immediately write laws by himself basically
The US has been on a governance crisis for some time now. It is slow and gradual, but they already had a coup attempt. It is the sort of things that is surreal and only possible to see when you look at it from a multi decades POV. Like Asimov’s foundation, it will take centuries and lots of things can happen in the mean time, but you can already see the empire imploding, rotting from within. Rome took almost 3 centuries to fall, and it was more like an erosion rather than crumble. I can see something similar.
Biden drops out Trump wins. What is the point of this?
The point is that there is now a credible fear that if Biden does not drop out, Trump wins.
Replacing the candidate at the top of the ticket this late is a hail Mary, but it could bring unenthusiastic voters back into the Democratic tent.
Trumps base is smaller, but passionate, they will show up. Biden doesn’t really have followers, he has people that are just glad that he isn’t Trump. But at this point it’s embarrassing to even vote for him for that reason… so people just won’t show up to vote at all. All they have to do is have a sentient human that can complete a sentence and the hate for Trump will prevail. For the love of God. Do something DNC or Trump it is.
I just can’t believe everyone is acting all surprised that the dude that could barely complete a sentence when he was 77 didn’t get mysteriously better now that he’s 81. Who woulda thought?..
We all know the DNC will do nothing, and Trump will win, and they are fine with it. Because they want to keep dragging this party to the right.
And lose the incumbent bump? A wash at best
3/7 incumbent presidents since 1980 have lost. It’s indistinguishable from a coin flip. Whatever benefit incumbency holds in the presidency, it’s not strong.
Trump wins if biden stays. I will vote for potato Biden before Trump, but I literally barely give a shit. The bar is literally so low and the democrats found a way to still struggle against a hated criminal. For the love of GOD, run someone else now. I will vote for anyone other than Trump but the LONG list of people that just want a sane person in there and currently won’t vote for either will probably show up if a sentient human was an option.
New candidate, dems win. Sit around and do nothing, Trump wins. His smaller base is passionate. The democrats are pretty underwhelmed and embarrassed of Biden.
I think what everyone needs to realize is that it’s already too late. It’s been too late and it was too late months ago. There are no other options. The world will suck but will most definitely suck less than one being led by Trump. You have two effective choices, vote Biden or don’t. It’s unfortunately all we have at this point.
With that attitude. They could literally put ANYONE in there (other than Hillary) and they will win. ANYONE. Doesn’t matter how late it is. A vast majority HATE Trump and are embarrassed of Biden. Just give them someone they aren’t completely ashamed of. That’s it. That’s all they have to do. They don’t need years of campaigning. Just be able to complete a coherent sentence and don’t be a racist bigot. That is how low the bar actually is right now. Hell, Hillary would probably win this go around.
Who?
Kamala? She’ll lose to Trump.
Newcom? Not even liked in California.
Pete Buttigieg? LGBT rights are being wiped out right now because a huge upswing in recent homophobia and you think an openly gay candidate has a chance?
You need to start listing names if you want this discussion to be taken seriously. There’s a reason why Biden was chosen in the first place, because no one could list a better choice. The same problem exists today.
Just give them someone they aren’t completely ashamed of.
People are surprisingly creative at being ashamed of Democrats. But are never ashamed of Trump. At some point, you need to just stop being so ashamed at the Democrat’s current choice: Biden.
I recognize this is a tough time, but you need to seriously start listing names. I’m not a Democrat so I’m not going to be at the primary or convention or whatever. But I would like to see a strong Democrat party so that I can confidently vote against Trump in November. I don’t care if its Biden, Pete or whoever honestly. But this gnashing and wailing when you can’t even deliver a name in your post is annoying to me.
Literally every one of those names is one I would vote for if put on the ballot. The bar is that low. It is dangerously low, they could run anyone and people would show up to vote, red flags or not. We’re mostly interested in taking a loan to pay the piper at this point, a future catastrophe can be dealt with after we deal with the current catastrophe.
Yeah, but you’d vote for Biden too.
The question isn’t about who you or I’d vote for. The question is who’d “Joe Moderate” would vote for?
And spoiler alert: “Joe Moderate” isn’t exactly a feminist or LGBT ally. “Joe Moderate” is the various citizens of Arizona, Pennsylvania, Georgia, Wisconsin, and Michigan who flipped from Red to Blue in 2020.
So you’re saying Joe Moderate is going to vote for a Female Governor? An openly gay politician? Or the California man who is proudly pushing ACCII to force people to buy Electric Cars? I don’t think so.
Fuck sake, why do you have to be right?
My immediate response was “well anyone who is paying attention absolutely would vote for one of them given the alternatives of Trump and Biden” but that’s exactly the point, most people aren’t paying enough attention. I can’t even argue with that. And the people whose vote we have to court the most are the fence sitters who definitely especially aren’t paying proper attention. Fuck.
I don’t even have more to add to that, now I’m just depressed. Because you’re right, I WOULD vote for Biden anyway even if I hate it, I said so myself, so I’m not even the target audience here. And Joe Moderate is going to ratchet us three clicks further right just in order to attempt preventing even worse.
On some level I definitely already knew all this but I have to say this is throwing it all into some pretty stark light.
Is Joe Moderate going to vote for an old man that can easily be legally declared incompetent to manage his own life, let alone an entire country? I doubt it.
Yes, Kamala, Newsom, who the fuck ever. Biden isn’t on this ticket because there was nobody else, he is on this ticket because they shoehorned in a sock puppet. The poor old man at one point had a name for himself but since there are a bunch of people around him that wanted to profit off the name he made for himself, he has instead turned into a senile old man on the public stage. That is the stamp he leaves in the history books because he is surrounded by shitbags that are taking advantage of an old man who cannot cognitively make decisions for himself anymore.
There was a laundry list of candidates pushed out for him last cycle and they refused to primary him this cycle, because they can take advantage of him, worst case scenario they get Trump to lower the bar further for 2028.
I would vote for any one of those people a thousand times over putting Biden or the country through what is happening now. AND SO WOULD ANYONE ELSE. If you think centrist dems will vote for Trump because the other option is a gay man, that’s crazy. If you think the far left will vote for Trump over Kamala because she’s a cop, you’re crazy. One thing a LOT of people won’t vote for is an old man that can’t even fucking talk.
I will vote for Biden if that’s all that’s offered purely because I can handle stupidity due to an actual mental deficit. I can’t handle the willful ignorance of facts and pure evil from Trump and his cronies. Most people (and I am not referring to the type of people cruising a politics sub) just won’t fucking vote.
If you think centrist dems will vote for Trump because the other option is a gay man, that’s crazy. If you think the far left will vote for Trump over Kamala because she’s a cop, you’re crazy.
Its not centrist dems who are in charge of this situation. Its Joe “Independent” who kinda-sorta is flirting with Ron DeSantis’s Don’t Say Gay bill and has eaten 8 years of anti-Democratic women propaganda from the right. Kamala is a difficult to pronounce name and she ain’t exactly white looking. My racist buddies don’t like her face or how she talks.
Honestly, I think Kamala has a chance vs Trump directly. She’s much more of a “fighter” type and I actually think her lawyer background would keep her more witty than both Trump and Biden. But you’re severely mistaken about the nature of Kamala’s problem as a Presidential top-of-the-line leader of the Democrats.
People in the USA are racist fucks, and the moderates who flip the vote are “mildly racist” (not enough to say they’re against Kamala or Clinton on womanhood alone, but instead use weasel words like “Not strong enough” or “Bad politics for Russia”, etc. etc.).
The main benefit we anti-Trumpers have going for us (note: I’m not a liberal), is that you Liberals have +4 more years off GenZ entering the voting pool and Conservatives have -4 years of Baby Boomers dying off.
GenZ / Youth Vote is famously finicky but if everyone just votes the same as 2020, this is all quite in Biden’s favor actually. Do you think Biden’s performance yesterday was truly so bad that “Joe Moderate” is flipping over to Trump now?
I don’t think so. Add the GenZ (however tepid their turnout will be) and we got this.
That’s the fucking point. You don’t have a choice. They decide. You vote for who you choose. Hope you don’t have a problem with that or you’re a fascist.
“Choose” is used losely in this sentence too.
It’s pretty bad…yeah.
I’d agree with you, except that we’re in the dark timeline where the DNC has burned us hard by making dumb electoral decisions. We’re basically given another chance at 2016 where we have a democratic shoehorn vs a narcissistic authoritarian. I’m actually getting to the point where I regret not voting for Hilary because of how much of a shit show those years were.
So, yes, I’d love to vote for someone else, preferably like Bernie, but it’s far too late to recampaign. Especially since it’s less than 5 months prior to actual elections. Given what was accomplished these past 4 years, I’d actually be okay with Biden if he would meaningfully do something to help Palestine.
I’m not sure what about last night gave you the impression HE is capable of doing anything.
The last three years did that. Idgaf about one bad debate.
Just remember, there are tons of people around him that hear him act and talk the way he did last night and keep this all going. He talks to foreign leaders and loses his train of thought. He participates in security briefings and decides how to handle crisis while he cannot hold a conversation. That isn’t one bad debate, it is a result of him not having notes or interaction with his advisors. This was him demonstrating his actual mental capabilities. It was predictable by anyone who has paid attention. Also, name one thing he did over the past 4 years that wasn’t immediately blocked that isn’t just… not be Trump.
I think you need to capitalize and repeat HILLARY a few more times to point out how logical and politically savvy you are.
“I mean HILLARY could even make statements without being as ASHAMED as ANYONE. ANYONE! HILLARY could be literally ANYONE plus HATE! To be better than HILLARY people!“
This is the incoherence you bring to the table. Maybe spice it up with the DNC being James Bond level super villains and telling everyone what to think?
Lmao he only mentioned her twice, you’re talking about her more than he is
Lmao, the fuck? You laugh why dipshit?
Why is she mentioned at all? Who cares if I say her name 3 times compared to 2.
What’s the fucking difference if YOU think she has no relevance at all? Got anything relevant to add or just lmao?
That’s not guaranteed if Biden drops out before the DNC convention in August, where presumably another (possibly younger) candidate could be chosen.
To get Trump to win so Project 2025 can happen
Honestly… An unknown challenger from EITHER side may actually sweep this election. Both candidates are hated by their constituents more than any other president I’ve seen in living memory.
Trump has the Republicans by the balls, but Biden doesn’t. I fully support this, if the right candidate can be found. The DNC won’t choose the right candidate, though… They are incompetent idiots.
The really fucked up thing is that the challenger wouldn’t be allowed onto every state ballot. The system is so tightly rigged its unbearable.
Not necessarily…… blue maga will support whoever they choose regardless and if they choose someone other than Biden they have a chance at the youth and uncommitted voters.
My prediction is that one of them doesn’t make it to Inauguration Day and the country panics as a result. Is likely? No. But on this timeline it makes the most sense
If Trump wins and dies before taking office would be a lot worse then Biden dieing.
Before Trump’s body is even cold there would be endless amount of conspiracies that Democrats killed Trump. The only saving grace would be Trump’s VP and other blood suckers all have diarrhea for brains and lack the charisma to take advantage of the situation.
It’s far too late for that, jackasses.
It is, and it isn’t… People love drama, and nothing about Trump’s stance is based on tradition or stability.
The right replacement could theoretically sweep the election. I just don’t trust the DNC with this… So I guess I agree with you in the end.
It’s almost like it was a stupid fucking decision in the first place to make Biden, Obama’s embarrassing baggage, run for president.
So many of us fought this, and so many of us now hate the democratic party for this. They get zero sympathy from me at this stage.
I’m voting against Trump in this election just like I did in the last election, but after the conservatives retire the narcissistic criminal, all bets are off.
I am right now drafting a message to send to the White House contact form advocating for just this. Will do nothing most likely, but it’s my drop in the ocean.
